Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[Yog]

Do you seriously think we can build a god, perform a geomantic upgrade, properly defend our hell portal, help the dragon, deal with the exalted stuff, deal with red court fallout, and pay our debts in the next turn? Cause from my perspective it seems like you vote to add more stuff to the pile at every opportunity with no regard for what you're already advocating for or have otherwise committed us to.

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We can start at least. Breaking those down:
Defense of the portal - 1 AP + 2 bonus AP. We disagree on how much AP should be allocated there, obviously. Your arguments that we should put more there have so far not convinced me. TTC + Constant shintai + WHWH + BSM + FPoR + signature DC adjustment + Lord of the Land + MHM + (possibly) TLF + Proxy Minion Protocols for enginseers of the Courts assisting us + assistance of the Courts should, in my opinion, be enough to make defensive construction that, when manned by a reasonable garrison, would steamroll over anything that's not a very angry Ferrovax or an unbound angel just discarding the rules completely. I have previously given both the numbers, and preliminary design ideas.

God crafting - 1 AP. We don't necessarily need to finish
Exaltation security - 1 AP
Geomantic upgrade - 1 AP. We don't need to finish it next turn, but I would like to start.

Still leaves 2 AP open.

We cannot pay our debts in the next turn, because the forge is not yet ready. At most, we can prepare the forge itself. I am perfectly ok with waiting another turn, and we aren't being pushed on those fronts - the timescales on which DF factions operate really help us there.

 

[BronzeTongue]

We can start at least. Breaking those down:
Defense of the portal - 1 AP + 2 bonus AP. We disagree on how much AP should be allocated there, obviously. Your arguments that we should put more there have so far not convinced me. TTC + Constant shintai + WHWH + BSM + FPoR + signature DC adjustment + Lord of the Land + MHM + (possibly) TLF + Proxy Minion Protocols for enginseers of the Courts assisting us + assistance of the Courts should, in my opinion, be enough to make defensive construction that, when manned by a reasonable garrison, would steamroll over anything that's not a very angry Ferrovax or an unbound angel just discarding the rules completely. I have previously given both the numbers, and preliminary design ideas.

God crafting - 1 AP. We don't necessarily need to finish
Exaltation security - 1 AP
Geomantic upgrade - 1 AP. We don't need to finish it next turn, but I would like to start.

Still leaves 2 AP open.

We cannot pay our debts in the next turn, because the forge is not yet ready. At most, we can prepare the forge itself. I am perfectly ok with waiting another turn, and we aren't being pushed on those fronts - the timescales on which DF factions operate really help us there.

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Yeah I fundamentally disagree with the timelines and resource commitments you're putting towards these projects.

You insist one AP is fine because you're impressed with our dice pools without a good understanding of what everyone else is able to do. There are many actors who aren't going to be impressed by the sort of thing you're talking about that have been discussed extensively.

You're building a turn of all your pet projects at once, and nothing that happens in the plot seems to change your mind about that, you just keep adding stuff in.

 

[Yog]

Yeah I fundamentally disagree with the timelines and resource commitments you're putting towards these projects.

You insist one AP is fine because you're impressed with our dice pools without a good understanding of what everyone else is able to do. There are many actors who aren't going to be impressed by the sort of thing you're talking about that have been discussed extensively.

You're building a turn of all your pet projects at once, and nothing that happens in the plot seems to change your mind about that, you just keep adding stuff in.

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3 AP. Not 1 AP. bonus AP are also AP.

Yes, this has been discussed extensively. I demonstrated, with numbers, that, as per demonstrated feats and power levels, major army deployment to the fortress, even barring any other defenses, rolls over everything bar angels. As far as I recall, no one was able or willing to demonstrate otherwise. The argument was always "but there are unknowns who are on completely different power level than anything we have seen or heard of so far". Here, let me remind you:

1) total number of active military personnel in the world is estimated to be ~ 27 million.
2) Total world population is estimated to be 7.9 billion people.
3) Assuming that, on average, Fivefold courts are five times more peaceful than Earth, and their population is ~ 5 billion, out total active military is ~ 3.4 million strong
4) Tooth to tail ratio increases with technological level. Magic should decrease the value because of its innate nature, but let's say that our guys are at 20:1. This gives us roughly 170 thousand combat troops to command.

Those are magical troops from an army with a long tradition of fighting other magical armies in the open with full integration of magic and industry, spirits, elemental dragons, and esoteric abilities. Now, how much is that? Let's say that one trained combat wizard is worth, on average, ten our soldiers. This means that we command a fighting force equivalent of ~ 17000 wardens. @uju32 previously indicated that the Wardens number ~ 300. So, our total military might can be estimated as ~ 60 times that of White Council. This is a lower boundary estimation. We likely have at least ten times as many veterans with lifetimes of experience of magical combat that we can muster as needed thanks to the nature of our kingdom granting infinite lifespans. We also certainly have a far more robust economy, and far better staying power in an active war.

By dedicating ~ 3% of our active troops to manning the portal fortress we would have the equivalent of the full White Council Military power roughly speaking, in a prepared magical fortress that is almost certainly as well protected as White Council Headquarters. Likely better. If we spend an AP next turn improving fortifications with large scale exalted craft, I would move that estimation to "as well fortified as Arctis Tor, likely better".

I am not buying the 'but 1%" argument. If Red King or a plausible alliance of Yama Kings or even a walker could solo the whole White Council (not senior council, full White Council Warden contingent) who were defending their headquarters without benefit of saboteurs or treachery, the White Council would already be a memory.

Note, that this is a lower boundary estimation. If we assume the same level of militarization as Earth, and the same tooth to tail ratio as modern USA army, then we are likely to wield ~600 times the military might of White Council. That's the active military, not counting any retirees or shifting the economy to war footing.

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Regarding defensive splendors, assuming we have resources to make a 5 dot one, it should be more than enough:

Spoiler: Matryoshka Citadel

A concept of multi-layered defense. Works like this:
Outermost layer - the Citadel complex, with barracks, heavy cannons, minefields, teleportation wards, at least ten thousand soldiers stationed.
The Citadel is a home to a 5 dot Emanation Arcana, who is the local god (Bane writ very large).
The Arcana has in their possession a Splendor, which form the innermost layer of defense - the Heart Room of the Five elements

Spoiler: Heart Room of Five Elements

Spoiler: Build

Fitful Malady (0 pt. Mystic Element): manifestation time
Form of Portentous Moonlight (1 pt. Form Element)
Form of Crackling Fire (1 pt. Form Element)
Form of Graceful Winds (1 pt. Form Element)
Form of Steadfast Earth (1 pt. Form Element)
Form of Gentle Water (1 pt. Form Element)
Form of the Hearth (2 pt. Form Element)
Sacred Protection (3 pt. Root Element)
Unthinkable Ward (1 pt. Mystic Element)
Scourge the World (2 pt. Mystic Element)

Spoiler: Mechanical effects

• A sealed room, no exits. 5 meter thick brass-like walls. The walls / ceiling / floor cannot be burned, cannot be frozen, do not conduct electricty and are immune to it, stop spirits as if they were material, and are extremely durable.
• In order to attack the room's walls the attacker has to pass a DC9 willpower roll, and spend 1 WP each turn while attacking it.
• First attack of the scene against the room's walls / ceiling / floor fails.
• The guardians stationed in the room are immune to wind, cold, and electricity, being crushed, cut, or pierced by stone or metal, being burned (fire), being drowned, and possession. If a single attack has more than one element of it, then damage is simply downgraded from aggravated to lethal, lethal to bashing, and bashing damage cut in half after soak (round down), while immunity to possession becomes the ability to make a Willpower roll at difficulty 5 to immediately shake the effect off,
• The intruder is subjected to a relentless mix of elemental attacks, which inflict -3 dice on all actions

The guardians are twenty five masters of Path of Civilization acting together. In sealed power armor and with blessed weapons.

Spoiler: Fluff

A five cornered room within the heart of the great citadel, it's the first and one of the greatest bastions between the outer world of Earth and the Sanctuary. Carved out of a single piece of brass, with walls five meters thick, it has no exits and the entry can be gained only through direct approval and assistance of the Citadel's great spirit, who holds possession of the Splendor. Within the room, a great pentagram is carved both within the floor and the ceiling, its points aligned with Five Cities. At the center of the pentagram is the portal to Earth. Each corner-point of the room has its own elemental manifestation - an eternally burning candle, a stream of water, that falls from nothing and into nothing, a miniature mountain, and an eternally spinning tornado.

Twenty five elite guardians, each of them a master of the Path of Civilization stand vigil in their sealed environmental suits there. While in the room they cannot be burned, cannot be drowned, cannot be frozen or electrocuted, are immune to weapons of metal and stone, and their spirits will remain clear of possession.

The walls are shrouded in psychic protection, and only the greatest of wills and mightiest and most twisted of magics can attempt to destroy them, and even then not easily.

This is very hard to escape for anyone we have seen.

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Note that those are quick and dirty stabs at making a defense. They are doable at either zero AP (well, one or two SGI AP built into the six we are spending on managing Sanctuary), or one AP.

We also have the reincarnated god as support.

Who are you worrying about? Give me a name of a being that can roll over several times (possibly several orders of magnitude) the total war power of White Council, all concentrated in one point, trying to prevent a breach of a localized small area, while supported by a god. And yes, I realize that Ebon Dragon, Malfeas, Uriel, and Nemesis who said "f*ck stealth" are all options. But against those, it's effectively meaningless to prepare. The difference between 3 and 8 AP (the theoretical maximum we can commit to this) is meaningless.

I keep insisting on 3 AP (and effectively several SGI AP as support) being more than enough based on numbers. And on the fact that nothing stops us from ridiculously overbuilding the defenses over the course of however long we want to.

Please, show me how spending more than 3 AP this turn on this is supposed to help. The maximum we can spend is 8 AP + 24 SGI AP. So, I want you to tell me how 8 AP + 24 SGI AP are going to be better against the kind of beings you are worried about than 3 AP + no more than 6 SGI AP (taken from Sanctuary management pool).

Because you insist that we have to commit more. So, argue how this is going to help.

 

[BronzeTongue]

3 AP. Not 1 AP. bonus AP are also AP.

Yes, this has been discussed extensively. I demonstrated, with numbers, that, as per demonstrated feats and power levels, major army deployment to the fortress, even barring any other defenses, rolls over everything bar angels. As far as I recall, no one was able or willing to demonstrate otherwise. The argument was always "but there are unknowns who are on completely different power level than anything we have seen or heard of so far". Here, let me remind you:


Note that those are quick and dirty stabs at making a defense. They are doable at either zero AP (well, one or two SGI AP built into the six we are spending on managing Sanctuary), or one AP.

We also have the reincarnated god as support.

Who are you worrying about? Give me a name of a being that can roll over several times (possibly several orders of magnitude) the total war power of White Council, all concentrated in one point, trying to prevent a breach of a localized small area, while supported by a god. And yes, I realize that Ebon Dragon, Malfeas, Uriel, and Nemesis who said "f*ck stealth" are all options. But against those, it's effectively meaningless to prepare. The difference between 3 and 8 AP (the theoretical maximum we can commit to this) is meaningless.

I keep insisting on 3 AP (and effectively several SGI AP as support) being more than enough based on numbers. And on the fact that nothing stops us from ridiculously overbuilding the defenses over the course of however long we want to.

Please, show me how spending more than 3 AP this turn on this is supposed to help. The maximum we can spend is 8 AP + 24 SGI AP. So, I want you to tell me how 8 AP + 24 SGI AP are going to be better against the kind of beings you are worried about than 3 AP + no more than 6 SGI AP (taken from Sanctuary management pool).

Because you insist that we have to commit more. So, argue how this is going to help.

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I'm really busy today so I'll need to do this in detail later.

The short version is that numbers in a void aren't good proof of anything and pure defensive infrastructure isn't the only thing we should be doing to secure our position.

The red court might struggle with an invasion, but turning a god into a weapon to perform something conventional forces aren't relevant to is an issue. As is an enemy archmage, being completely unbound from any kind of mechanically relevant balance as they are, doing something awful.

Nemesis is among the biggest problems we're going to have, and it isn't going to be intimidated - or particularly hindered- by splendor walls and millions of demons. Getting around better defenses than that is literally what it was made for.

A critical layer on top of what you have is another splendor for general solider defense against mind games instead of just protecting the one fortress, potentially one for abusing Mallko's nature for broader effects.

We should also be actively engaging in the setting and situation we've created here instead of letting our enemies reorganize. Pushing the reds out of our territory and supporting our allies in a manner that helps us in turn. That is a time sensitive issue, geomancy on a continent we don't even have a presence on is not.

Some mad science is a fun and useful part of the game. Spending the bulk of our AP on it is the strategic equivalent of all those times we decided to huddle up and prep during an event.

Something that has gotten us punched in the face on a regular basis since Emma-O tried to repo Molly's exaltation.

 

[BoredMan]

It is a good place to offer it, though. We outline the problem they seem to be unaware of, and in the same breath offer if not a solution, than mitigation.

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This is from yesterday and I actually can't recall what point it is I was trying to make.
Upon rereading I think I was getting rid of false narratives that were being spun. Lol, I know BronzeTongue is annoyed cause you ripped his stunt to secure votes.

Still leaves 2 AP open

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This ain't a Tinker Quest bro. Just remember that.

As far as I recall, no one was able or willing to demonstrate otherwise. The argument was always "but there are unknowns who are on completely different power level than anything we have seen or heard of so far"

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That's actually a bit of a strawman if your thinking back to the discussion we were having before. One of my main arguments was that your math which your basing all of your analysis off of could be misleading because your doing it with faulty information and making determinations on things that are firmly in the author's court.

That said I'm thinking on this and I don't believe I explained why I didn't continue the portal conversation after saying I would when I have more time, which I have since then (though things are still crazy, and I'm not even talking about holiday nonsense).

Don't know if you care to know but in the interest of clarity since I did say I'd get back to it later on then never explained when I didn't (this was a month ago or so now), I had copy and pasted several paragraphs in a separate file on my laptop to be added onto later so I could continue in the thread during the votes. Then some 'stuff' happened and I needed a new one. You ever write up a report then loose everything then when you try to write it back up your brain makes shortcuts to try and get it done faster when it notices your doing the same thing, which ironically makes it take even longer? Not all of my files were backed up so I decided I wasn't going to bother considering what it was.

 

[Yog]

I'm really busy today so I'll need to do this in detail later.

The short version is that numbers in a void aren't good proof of anything and pure defensive infrastructure isn't the only thing we should be doing to secure our position.

The red court might struggle with an invasion, but turning a god into a weapon to perform something conventional forces aren't relevant to is an issue. As is an enemy archmage, being completely unbound from any kind of mechanically relevant balance as they are, doing something awful.

Nemesis is among the biggest problems we're going to have, and it isn't going to be intimidated - or particularly hindered- by splendor walls and millions of demons. Getting around better defenses than that is literally what it was made for.

A critical layer on top of what you have is another splendor for general solider defense against mind games instead of just protecting the one fortress, potentially one for abusing Mallko's nature for broader effects.

We should also be actively engaging in the setting and situation we've created here instead of letting our enemies reorganize. Pushing the reds out of our territory and supporting our allies in a manner that helps us in turn. That is a time sensitive issue, geomancy on a continent we don't even have a presence on is not.

Some mad science is a fun and useful part of the game. Spending the bulk of our AP on it is the strategic equivalent of all those times we decided to huddle up and prep during an event.

Something that has gotten us punched in the face on a regular basis since Emma-O tried to repo Molly's exaltation.

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1) The numbers are not in a void. They are backed by the internal logic and consistency of the setting, where White Council is a major superpower, where Red Court doesn't rule the world, where denarians couldn't just walk into Hades's vault, and the long-term effective strategy for defending the Outer Gates is to send waves of moderately magically enhanced humanoid soldiers at it armed with medieval weapons.

We have seen what an active and mostly undiminshed wargod looks like - Iku Turso was one. Not the greatest one, obviously, I would even dare call him a minor one, but a god nevertheless. We have seen what a heavily invested enemy archmage in their own domain looks like. We have seen what a Yamaking superweapon build using Age of Legends materials is like.

None of those would be capable of taking on a magically enhanced modern army numbering in the thousands, supported by their own spirits and gods, on prepared ground.

Yes, there are beings in the setting, on both sides of it, that render numbers meaningnless. Uriel, Mab in Arctis Tor, any of the Fallen discarding the Rules completely (if they can), Neverborn of Ebon Dragon, likely some of the Greater Walkers (I would argue not Nemesis, at least not its individual parts). But against those, adding more AP would not meaningfully change how much opposition we can present to an invasion in one month's time.

EDIT:
2) On the subject of attacking Red Court. I can see your point, and relentless assault has its place, but I feel that what we started with half-reds is enough to keep the momentum going for the month.
/EDIT

Some mad science is a fun and useful part of the game. Spending the bulk of our AP on it is the strategic equivalent of all those times we decided to huddle up and prep during an event.

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I would argue that the opposite is true. That right now is the best time to huddle up and prep. We are all offense, and zero defense all the time. There's nothing stopping a red hitsquad from turning Rosie, for example. Or MIkaboshi from nuking Chicago in its entirety.

Not to mention the exaltation in Vegas, where you, to be frank, adopted the position of "if we don't look, nothing bad will happen".

That's actually a bit of a strawman if your thinking back to the discussion we were having before. One of my main arguments was that your math which your basing all of your analysis off of could be misleading because your doing it with faulty information and making determinations on things that are firmly in the author's court.

That said I'm thinking on this and I don't believe I explained why I didn't continue the portal conversation after saying I would when I have more time, which I have since then (though things are still crazy, and I'm not even talking about holiday nonsense).

Don't know if you care to know but in the interest of clarity since I did say I'd get back to it later on then never explained when I didn't (this was a month ago or so now), I had copy and pasted several paragraphs in a separate file on my laptop to be added onto later so I could continue in the thread during the votes. Then some 'stuff' happened and I needed a new one. You ever write up a report then loose everything then when you try to write it back up your brain makes shortcuts to try and get it done faster when it notices your doing the same thing, which ironically makes it take even longer? Not all of my files were backed up so I decided I wasn't going to bother considering what it was.

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Yeah, I know the situation, and the feeling, and feel sorry for you. No problem from my side.

Strawman accusation wise - I believe (but don't actually remember, if not, I apologize), that I either prefaced my claims, or followed them up with "even if we put in a very healthy margins in those, the result is still the same". I'll also follow up with the following arguments:
1) Some tool, even if inaccurate, is better than no tool at all, in the absence of other means to analyze the situation. The math, as it is, might be misleading, and off by an order of magnitude in one or the other direction. It still gives us something - I wasn't able to see an alternative at all.
2) I am devoting a healthy amount of time and resources to fortification (and this is "fortification" in general, not necessarily only constructing static defenses - it's improving defenses overall). What I am arguing against is, from my understanding, the position boiling down to "we should drop everything and focus exclusively on this to the expense of everything else, or we leave ourselves in unacceptable danger".

This ain't a Tinker Quest bro. Just remember that.

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Not a tinker quest, no. But craft and magic are fun too. And are one of our best tools. I wasn't actually planning for geomantic upgrades for dragonblooded next month.

 

[fictionfan]

Using IDU on a large proportion of the fellowship of St. Giles would likely go a long way towards destroying the Red Court.

 

[Yog]

Using IDU on a large proportion of the fellowship of St. Giles would likely go a long way towards destroying the Red Court.

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Indeed. And, as I understand it, we already set it up so it happens on its own. And possibly also planted a seed to turn the fellowship into our cult.

 

[BoredMan]

Yeah, I know the situation, and the feeling, and feel sorry for you. No problem from my side.

Strawman accusation wise - I believe (but don't actually remember, if not, I apologize), that I either prefaced my claims, or followed them up with "even if we put in a very healthy margins in those, the result is still the same". I'll also follow up with the following arguments:
1) Some tool, even if inaccurate, is better than no tool at all, in the absence of other means to analyze the situation. The math, as it is, might be misleading, and off by an order of magnitude in one or the other direction. It still gives us something - I wasn't able to see an alternative at all.
2) I am devoting a healthy amount of time and resources to fortification (and this is "fortification" in general, not necessarily only constructing static defenses - it's improving defenses overall). What I am arguing against is, from my understanding, the position boiling down to "we should drop everything and focus exclusively on this to the expense of everything else, or we leave ourselves in unacceptable danger".

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Oh, I wasn't looking for pity or anything. I just felt like I should explain once I remembered it since I specifically told you that I planned to get back to it later then didn't.

Again author territory. This just comes off as a bit arrogant and I can't think of the word.. simplistic? to use math when you don't even know the nature of the hidden variables in question. BronzeTongue made a good point about possibly using gods as weapons against us down the line to try and circumvent traditional defences with magic we haven't seen before. Like the citywide bad luck spell we encountered in Vegas.

1) Yeah I recall addressing this specific thing. My problem isn't that it's being analyzed it's how confidently you then use that data to make arguments and extrapolate.

2) That's BronzeTongue. Not sure if he's actually saying that but that argument has little to do with me.

Not a tinker quest, no. But craft and magic are fun too. And are one of our best tools. I wasn't actually planning for geomantic upgrades for dragonblooded next month.

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Well you listed it with everything else you were saying you wanted to do or start next turn. So I guess you were talking about a different geomantic upgrade. Which kind of proves my point.

 

[Yog]

Well you listed it with everything else you were saying you wanted to do or start next turn. So I guess you were talking about a different geomantic upgrade. Which kind of proves my point.

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No, it is this one. I listed it as an argument that, if we wanted to, we could fit it next month. I don't actually feel strongly about doing so.

Oh, I wasn't looking for pity or anything. I just felt like I should explain once I remembered it since I specifically told you that I planned to get back to it later then didn't.

Again author territory. This just comes off as a bit arrogant and I can't think of the word.. simplistic? to use math when you don't even know the nature of the hidden variables in question. BronzeTongue made a good point about possibly using gods as weapons against us down the line to try and circumvent traditional defences with magic we haven't seen before. Like the citywide bad luck spell we encountered in Vegas.

1) Yeah I recall addressing this specific thing. My problem isn't that it's being analyzed it's how confidently you then use that data to make arguments and extrapolate.

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This feels like some sort of fundamental failure of communication, and probably worldviews. From my persepctive, I have gone way over the top in being cautious and including caveats in my estimations.

And, as I said before, it's meaningless to consider unknown unknowns. You can't do anything with them. Which is why you consider what you know against what you can do, and plan based on that, with healthy margins included. Otherwise, how do you plan for anything at all?

 

[DragonParadox]

Vote closed.

Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 13, 2024 at 4:06 PM, finished with 60 posts and 14 votes.

• ---

  9 people have voted

  [X] Actually you have more questions to say before you go
  -[X] Explain to them how the thing that Odin seeks is powering their bloodline, producing more exalts
  -[X] Offer to geomantically strengthen their dragon nest
  -[X] [Stunt]: Smiling reassuringly at Kristin, Molly turned back to Ragnhildur. "There is one more piece of business I'd like to make sure you are aware of, as it is directly related to the continued survival of the dragon blood".
  —[X] Meeting her eyes, Molly continued in a crisp and serious tone. "The Old One does not hold their prize for the sake of having it. In truth, they took it for yours".
  —[X] "The honored dragon is drawing a special sort of essence from it, and shaping to sustain your lineage. I'm unsure if it can be completely replaced, but I can improve the power of your nest, make it more efficient, get more out of what is there"

  • Yog
  • Anaja
  • Ivar
  • zeromass
  • Degorium
  • Yzarc
  • Vanguard_D
  • sunrise
  • Goldfish

  5 people have voted

  [X] Actually you have more questions to say before you go
  -[X] Explain to them how the thing that Odin seeks is powering their bloodline, producing more exalts
  -[X] [Stunt]: Smiling reassuringly at Kristin, Molly turned back to Ragnhildur. "There is one more piece of business I'd like to make sure you are aware of, as it is directly related to the continued survival of the dragon blood".
  —[X] Meeting her eyes, Molly continued in a crisp and serious tone. "The Old One does not hold their prize for the sake of having it. In truth, they took it for yours".
  —[X] "The honored dragon is drawing a special sort of essence from it, and shaping to sustain your lineage. I'm unsure how it might be replaced - if it's even possible at all - but without something you would suffer for its loss"

  • BronzeTongue
  • BoredMan
  • TheGrape
  • Azais
  • Goldfish

  1 people have voted

  [x] Straight to Sanctuary, that is part of what you offered

  • fictionfan

 

[BoredMan]

This feels like some sort of fundamental failure of communication, and probably worldviews. From my persepctive, I have gone way over the top in being cautious and including caveats in my estimations.

And, as I said before, it's meaningless to consider unknown unknowns. You can't do anything with them. Which is why you consider what you know against what you can do, and plan based on that, with healthy margins included. Otherwise, how do you plan for anything at all?

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This might be a better way of explaining it. Your doing a math equation and you've got some variables represented by letters.. but you also have variables that are straight up not shown in the equation with any sort of symbol, but come to find out, affect your end result nonetheless. Not sure if that actually makes sense but that's another way of looking at it.

Again. My issue isn't that the situation is being analyzed with what we know we have. My problem is that the "unknown unknowns" are essentially being treated as a non factor because you can't account for them when you make your arguments and extrapolate. They are still part of the equation however and this reaches far enough into author original content territory that I find it illogical to be doing this so confidently.

Bronzetongue can't make too much of an argument in his case because he doesn't have the author's notes and justifications on hand. This brings me back to the last Arc we just got through. Would you have guessed that they had a bomb capable of destroying the veil between the NN and real space? I don't imagine so, when we were talking about if Peabody would cause us real problems for three or so pages before that Arc no one brought up the possibility of such a thing.

It was author original content but it was an important factor nonetheless. If the bomb had went off that Arc would have gone very differently and we'd probably be dealing with a Masquerade breach right now instead of addressing this.

However back then I did say that because we don't know what assets Peabody or his benefactors have (evidently he was working with at least one Denarian even) that we shouldn't say he'd be handled so easily and with as much confidence as people had in such an assessment back then. I was rebuffed by several people, including you, saying that Outsiders have limits over and over. As it turns out Peabody wasn't even the biggest problem in addressing Peabody.

It's weird to be asking people 'what are you expecting if we can do all of this' in this case because everyone is ignorant. On the Outer Gates bit what you said to BT, that is a good way of looking at it but here's another example of 'only the author knows but it's still important'- When we were in Vegas at least one dues ex machina Sword was suddenly needed to hold the Gates, along with who knows what else, when normally Swords of the Cross aren't and are really on earth to counter the Coins. That was the given explanation for why we were so alone in Vegas when a portal to the Outside was getting pulled open over the course of days.

 

[Degorium]

BronzeTongue made a good point about possibly using gods as weapons against us down the line to try and circumvent traditional defences with magic we haven't seen before. Like the citywide bad luck spell we encountered in Vegas.

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I am sorry to barge in on this but things like the bad luck spell can be countered by Sorcerers that we possess and gods are definitively not immune to damage and also not immune to other Spirits trying to kill them as well which are also covered by Yog's points.

Again. My issue isn't that the situation is being analyzed with what we know we have. My problem is that the "unknown unknowns" are essentially being treated as a non factor because you can't account for them when you make your arguments and extrapolate. They are still part of the equation however and this reaches far enough into author original content territory that I find it illogical to be doing this so confidently.

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This I feel is kind of his whole point I may be putting words in @Yog's mouth but we definitively can't devote enough AP to deal with any and every possible scenario and even pretending like we can is going to Cripple us with insane paranoia and inaction.

That at least is what I picked up from his points so far is that based on everything that we can visibly see that isn't some kind of outside context problem or outright something we can never defend against three AP is enough.

I'm inclined to agree because three AP in this case would mean literally weeks of moving soldiers building fortifications enchanting said fortifications getting spirits ready to defend on both sides of the portal and on both sides of reality and never never it's a lot that we can do three AP but against things like outright magical nuclear weapons or Divinity being used as disposable assets there's no amount of AP we could devote to deal with that.

At very least no amount that doesn't inccur massive opportunity costs that we would be better served by attempting to kill the Red Court or track down Nemesis or finish off Mikaboshi and make an attempt on Emma-O.

 

[BoredMan]

I am sorry to barge in on this but things like the bad luck spell can be countered by Sorcerers that we possess and gods are definitively not immune to damage and also not immune to other Spirits trying to kill them as well which are also covered by Yog's points.

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Yes? I'm aware. It was just an example of something unexpected that we didn't have an answer for. Your missing my point.

Also I find it very amusing that when I typed that up I thought to myself "Degorium is probably going to interject because he wants us to invest in sorcerer stuff lol" and then you actually did.

This I feel is kind of his whole point I may be putting words in @Yog's mouth but we definitively can't devote enough AP to deal with any and every possible scenario and even pretending like we can is going to Cripple us with insane paranoia and inaction.

That it really is what I picked up from his points so far is that based on everything that we can visibly see that isn't some kind of outside context problem or outright something we can never defend against three AP is enough.

I'm inclined to agree because three AP in this case would mean literally weeks of moving soldiers building fortifications enchanting said fortifications getting spirits ready to defend on both sides of the portal and on both sides of reality and never never it's a lot that we can do three AP but against things like outright magical nuclear weapons or Divinity being used as disposable assets there's no amount of AP we could devote to deal with that.

At very least not one that doesn't occur massive opportunity costs that we better served by attempting to kill the Red Court or track down Nemesis or finish off Mikaboshi and make an attempt on Emma-O.

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And my point is that just because it's author only territory doesn't mean it isn't a relevant factor that may reveal your position to be rather shaky after the fact. That's why I brought up the veil disrupting bomb and the last Arc.

 

[Sesparra]

[X] Actually you have more to say before you go
-[X] Explain to them how the thing that Odin seeks is powerjng their bloodline, producing more exalts
-[X] Offer geomantic upgrades to their dragon nest

 

[Degorium]

Also I find it very amusing that when I typed that up I thought to myself "Degorium is probably going to interject because he wants us to invest in sorcerer stuff lol" and then you actually did.

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God dammit you caught me. maintaining the agenda is my top priority.

And my point is that just because it's author only territory doesn't mean it isn't a relevant factor that may reveal your position to be rather shaky after the fact. That's why I brought up the veil disrupting bomb and the last Arc.

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Though this is part of the larger point we as quest players cannot see the author's hand we can only interpret information that we already have and based on the information we have there's literally no amount of AP that we could invest to deal with any unknown unknown.

Now that we know such a weapon is possible we can possibly devise a means to defend against it using our occult and our craft and possibly sorcerous Engineers from our world but we definitively can't defend against a lot of things that BronzeTongue is talking about and no amount of AP investment would ever change that.

Which is what Yog is getting out when he asked for possible threats that are defendable against from bronze tongue. To use your own words he has part of the equation and every visible part that he can see including the other side of the equation seems to suggest this comes out to zero there are variables that he cannot know but based on the variables he can this is a balanced equation and that has to be enough because we don't possess an omniscient view of what the author and what the setting as a whole possesses.

BronzeTongue is talking about trying to pay off debts this next turn and I'm immediately like no. There is no world where those need to be paid off immediately. Immediately connected there's no real reason to pay them off of this decade either people in this setting are fucking Immortal and the ones that aren't that we owe an actual debt to are literal children so we can wait a while.

While they're getting on Yog for piling craft projects they want to actually attempt to pay off debt that requires special ingredients immediately when the setting as a whole seems to suggest that we can literally sit on that debt for the better part of 20 years before we need to do even one of them never mind both. It seems kind of ridiculous.

 

[DragonParadox]

Ancestors's Ways ​

26st of February 2007 A.D.

Smiling reassuringly at Kristin, you turned back to Ragnhildur.... and decide to take the plunge. Hopefully this isn't going to turn into a thing, you did promise Mom that would come back today, if not in time for dinner. "There is one more piece of business I'd like to make sure you are aware of, as it is directly related to the continued survival of the dragon blood". Meeting her eyes, you continue in a crisp, serious tone. "The Old One does not hold their prize for the sake of having it. In truth, they took it for yours The honored dragon is drawing a special sort of essence from it, and shaping to sustain your lineage. I'm unsure if it can be completely replaced, but I can improve the power of your nest, make it more efficient, get more out of what is there."

The smile that lights up her face in response proves it was a good call even before she speaks, though you are still surprised at the answer. "Children take a while to carry, longer still to train," her look towards Kristin is pointed, but not overly sharp. "Now the age turns, the dead walk and the gods call to war. Short are these days as long has been the age behind it and, earth and flame willing, long will be the age after. When I was young there were two dozen of us, now there are less. That was part of the bargain we made the Lord of the Frenzied, access to all he might learn in the study and that he put that sight of his good eye and of the empty one to understanding the blood of the dragon that it might flow anew, that this new age that comes shall be ours as much as it is his. Old we might be but will not be left behind to wither and catch mold. Well did the mead of poetry flow, but we were not drunk on its sweetness Margret Daughter of Michael. If you wish to be part of the learning of the secrets for your own use I would vouch for you for you've shown yourself courtous in power."

Kristin starts at the words, looking to her for permission almost.

"What other secrets do you think you know which you've yet to spill." The younger dragon-kin just sort of nods at her and much to your surprise Ragnhildur laughs. "Ach... I'm not that vain child."

"But mother said that we shouldn't tell anyone..."

"That you shouldn't tell mortals, which part of that seemed mortal to you? The green fire on her brow? The Jottun-Tongue?"She turns back to you. "How old do you think I am?"

"The blood of dragon hardens flesh against bite of years," Usum whispers at the back of your mind, though you hardly needed him to guess as much. There's something deeper here. Hardens against... You take a guess."It depends, are we counting turns around the sun or years lived beyond the embrace of stone."

"I took my second breath in the year when the Christ-soldiers sacked Miklagarðr. Two of us there are who sank our Essence into the earth that she might keep us as she keeps the ones whose blood we share. I have lived about three turns of the moon in the last six hundred and forty years, the rest I waited. I go now back to the stone and leave the youngsters to guard our legacy until such a time as my counsel is needed again."

With that she bids you farewell and you are left in the company of a somewhat bemused Kristin. To break the ice you offer wryly: "Her waking up had to have been a shock."

"No kidding," she laughs as you towel off, leaving the baths. "I got the 'we are related to dragons' speech at the same time as 'the Norse Gods are apparently real and still around' and by the way 'our distant ancestors have been meditating in the basement for so long the dust on them had hardened into stone.' Is that a normal magical thing?"

"Normal for those who are kin of dragons," you brush past just how unusual that heritage trully is.

"Living to a hundred and eighty before that and looking sixty...?"

"Wizards are actually longer lived though they do not have a means of suspended animation. The other way one might cheat is to go to a place where time flows differently..." Like the dungeons of Arawn, the thought comes back to you.

Should you tell the knights you had found more of their kin, should you bring Kristin to speak to them even?

[] Inform them

[] Arrange a meeting

[] Do not inform them

[] Write in

OOC: And done. I was worried I wouldn't be able to get an update up today between being busy and a very poorly timed headache. Enjoy

 

[DragonParadox]

Rolls
Wits Occult... You know about this charm
Unfeeling Earth Meditation (••••)
With a moment's intense concentration, the Dragon- Blooded may become as enduring as the Earth itself.
System: Spend 1 Essence and roll Willpower (difficulty 6). For each success, the Dragon-Blooded may enjoy one of the following benefits for the rest of the scene:
• She no longer experiences penalties for fatigue and exhaustion, and indeed needs neither rest nor sleep.
• She no longer experiences penalties for starvation or dehydration, and indeed has no need to eat or drink.
• She no longer needs to breathe.
• She does not age.
Alternately, the character may activate this Charm while quietly meditating, and may extend the Charm's benefits for as long as she continues to do so.

 

[TheGrape]

If I recall correctly, the 6th Law doesn't technically forbid time travel to the future, since literally everyone is travelling to the future, one moment at a time.

So I'm pretty sure a Wizard could whip up a stasis chamber and skip forward a few years/decades if they really put their mind to it. They just don't have any reason to want to do so; wizards getting stronger by age is due to having more time to study and practice, not because just being old makes them more powerful.

 

[DragonParadox]

If I recall correctly, the 6th Law doesn't technically forbid time travel to the future, since literally everyone is travelling to the future, one moment at a time.

So I'm pretty sure a Wizard could whip up a stasis chamber and skip forward a few years/decades if they really put their mind to it. They just don't have any reason to want to do so; wizards getting stronger by age is due to having more time to study and practice, not because just being old makes them more powerful.

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Yeah, but you would need to have gotten your Time Sphere up that high somehow. There aren't really a lot of wizards with that skill for the same reason there aren't a lot of people in the Council who can raise a zombie Tyrannosaurus.

 

[Vanguard_D]

Seems to have earned Molly some points to offer help here. Grab VEE next level up and we cant really get rolling on helping them recover.

 

[BoredMan]

God dammit you caught me. maintaining the agenda is my top priority

Click to shrink...

Ayyee. That's right, maintaining the Agenda at all cost! We'll pick up that mana manipulation eventually! Probably! 😂

Spoiler: Keep on brother

Edit: *Looks at the post above about VEE* You ain't ever getting that mana manipulation bro.

Which is what Yog is getting out when he asked for possible threats that are defendable against from bronze tongue. To use your own words he has part of the equation and every visible part that he can see including the other side of the equation seems to suggest this comes out to zero there are variables that he cannot know but based on the variables he can this is a balanced equation and that has to be enough because we don't possess an omniscient view of what the author and what the setting as a whole possesses

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Yeah. So I think he should stop asking questions that assume people do and that he isn't giving this fact the credibility it deserves when he confidently makes his statements on the portal. At this point him and BT should just leave it because it's impossible for either to disprove the other.

While they're getting on Yog for piling craft projects they want to actually attempt to pay off debt that requires special ingredients immediately when the setting as a whole seems to suggest that we can literally sit on that debt for the better part of 20 years before we need to do even one of them never mind both. It seems kind of ridiculous.

Click to shrink...

I'm not aware enough of that discussion to say anything for BT.

Anyways leaving debts for 20 years or something is bad because it means those people aren't going to want to give you more favors if you aren't paying off the ones you already have. It's political as much as it is practical. And due to IRL things a lot of people would just rather not have outstanding debts at all.

 

[Degorium]

Anyways leaving debts for 20 years or something is bad because it means those people aren't going to want to give you more favors if you aren't paying off the ones you already have. It's political as much as it is practical. And due to IRL things a lot of people would just rather not have outstanding debts at all.

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I do get it I was kind of being hyperbalistic when I said 20 years but it has been a few months since we incurred the debt with the archive and it hasn't even been two since we accrued the debt with Odin. The need to pay it off immediately especially when it requires rare ingredients is largely unnecessary or not present.

At least not over anything we could possibly want to do with the ingredients before we pay them off then again Odin has agreed to pay for his own crafted Miracles so maybe it makes sense to pay that off first but even then it's not a priority to hit if at very least not next turn when there's way more important shit we could be doing.

The time spans in Dresden files on a whole seems to operate in seems to suggest that paying anything off in a year is like lightning speed never mind a couple months after incurring the debt.

We can make real material gains with everything he wants to try and pay the archives right now and we have no low tier ingredients either and we don't have the Wonder forage finished again either so everything we give the archive would be made with things that are way better suited to outfitting ourselves and our Circle instead of the two dot protection splendors we'd be giving the Archive.

We need a couple red Elder Corpses so we don't have to give up any of our essentially Methuselah or near deity Corpses for essentially chump change to the archive.

 

[BoredMan]

I mean, you can tell that to BronzeTongue. I don't really care but I will say, I don't think it's reasonable to place Ivy in the same bracket expectation wise when it comes to paying off your tab. She's not a supernatural with an inhuman perception of time and she can probably tell that Molly isn't either with all the running around we do.

 

[Degorium]

Ayyee. That's right, maintaining the Agenda at all cost! We'll pick up that mana manipulation eventually! Probably! 😂

Spoiler: Keep on brother

Edit: *Looks at the post above about VEE* You ain't ever getting that mana manipulation bro.

Click to shrink...

Pain. Deep and unabating. (Ancestor from Darkest Dungeon voice).

I mean, you can tell that to BronzeTongue. I don't really care but I will say, I don't think it's reasonable to place Ivy in the same bracket expectation wise when it comes to paying off your tab. She's not a supernatural with an inhuman perception of time and she can probably tell that Molly isn't either with all the running around we do.

Click to shrink...

Fair enough it's just debt is one of those things of you shouldn't pay more than you really need to and every ingredient we have at the moment is literally near Divinity tier or actually divine which is better spent not on lesser wonders never mind the fact that yet again a couple months is not a ridiculous amount of time for debt even if you had a proper contract with an actual time limit set on it.