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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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That seems even more risky and potentially problematic.

Instead I'd like to prevail upon the thread to give into the latent infernal instinct to make diabolic pacts.

Maybe we'll catch a dead super god, maybe we'll piss it off, maybe we'll stir up shit in the doom puddle.

But if it works though. :V
 
My main theory:
Lamentations is an Abyssal Exalt that used the Free Will of a mortal human to choose to not push for the annihilation of Creation. A power that's of the ocean of oblivion that the Neverborn are in, but isn't aligned against Creation existing. If there was only Oblivion there'd be no Hunger and no way to sate that Hunger. There'd be nothing at all. That wouldn't be bad but it's not the preference of the mortal of that Exaltation. If nothing exists and there's no past, then it doesn't matter when Creation is sunk to Oblivion which means it also doesn't matter if the Abyssal acts to sink Creation today because nothing will exist including the decision they could make so they're allowed to procrastinate since it won't matter in the end.

Rules Lawyering basically.

The Ocean, then, is the next layer down from where we're at. Where the Nephilim was at could support 2nd Age workings, so this could also be a place of 2nd Age (and the Ocean would be 1st Age) or this could be 1st Age and the Ocean is whatever the Primordials were cast to when mutilated into the Neverborn. The implication that things went off early could be the fact that the whole working was supposed to get all the way to the Neverborn but didn't make it before everything involved (but the Abyssal and the Nephilim) died. Stalling out in 2nd Age when you need to get past the 1st Age to find the Neverborn would be a failure for sure, but also just making the attempt would drag mortals (and apparently even Vampires) so far into Oblivion that they can't/don't survive.

maybe we can get the Abyssal to make choices that we'd like it to make. Maybe the best thing for it is the current state of things (mostly eradicated Black Court, mostly inactive Abyssal keeping an eye on the Ocean). There's an ongoing theme of our Infernal nature allowing for better outcomes than the perpetual stalemate suffering of Dresdenverse or WoD, so I won't say definitively that there's no way to recruit/help Lamentations in a way that'd be good for Creation/Us. That said: I'm for slow rolling this and doing our best not to fight
 
JowKeen said:
My main theory:
Lamentations is an Abyssal Exalt that used the Free Will of a mortal human to choose to not push for the annihilation of Creation. A power that's of the ocean of oblivion that the Neverborn are in, but isn't aligned against Creation existing. If there was only Oblivion there'd be no Hunger and no way to sate that Hunger. There'd be nothing at all. That wouldn't be bad but it's not the preference of the mortal of that Exaltation. If nothing exists and there's no past, then it doesn't matter when Creation is sunk to Oblivion which means it also doesn't matter if the Abyssal acts to sink Creation today because nothing will exist including the decision they could make so they're allowed to procrastinate since it won't matter in the end.

Rules Lawyering basically.

The Ocean, then, is the next layer down from where we're at. Where the Nephilim was at could support 2nd Age workings, so this could also be a place of 2nd Age (and the Ocean would be 1st Age) or this could be 1st Age and the Ocean is whatever the Primordials were cast to when mutilated into the Neverborn. The implication that things went off early could be the fact that the whole working was supposed to get all the way to the Neverborn but didn't make it before everything involved (but the Abyssal and the Nephilim) died. Stalling out in 2nd Age when you need to get past the 1st Age to find the Neverborn would be a failure for sure, but also just making the attempt would drag mortals (and apparently even Vampires) so far into Oblivion that they can't/don't survive.

maybe we can get the Abyssal to make choices that we'd like it to make. Maybe the best thing for it is the current state of things (mostly eradicated Black Court, mostly inactive Abyssal keeping an eye on the Ocean). There's an ongoing theme of our Infernal nature allowing for better outcomes than the perpetual stalemate suffering of Dresdenverse or WoD, so I won't say definitively that there's no way to recruit/help Lamentations in a way that'd be good for Creation/Us. That said: I'm for slow rolling this and doing our best not to fight
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There's something to this. Younget an abyssal shard while dying. With proper setup, nothing, in theory, says you can't get one while being stillborn. That would satisfy the data we have about it.
BronzeTongue said:
That seems even more risky and potentially problematic.

Instead I'd like to prevail upon the thread to give into the latent infernal instinct to make diabolic pacts.

Maybe we'll catch a dead super god, maybe we'll piss it off, maybe we'll stir up shit in the doom puddle.

But if it works though. :V
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It's not suggested as a serious course of action (for now). At most I might suggest diving in to fis our whatever part of the Lamentations is inside the Ocean.
Aria the Mage said:
…..I'm not convinced that this is anything like water or even liquid such that Boiling Sea Mastery might apply.
Also gonna say that I think there's a big difference between oil made out of….plants and animals, and ?oil? made out of a Neverborn. Big difference.

Also. Uh. Pretty sure you can't kill the neverborn like that. Historical precedent suggests that Lydia cannot, actually, kill a Dead Primordial extra dead.

I'm also going to say that I'm pretty sure merging with Cecelyne would not permit you to traverse her in less than 5 days, and by that same principle it is likely you can't reach the bottom of an infinite "ocean" that easily.
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All valid counter points, yes.
 
DragonParadox said:
I have to say it's nice to see all the conversation going on, a lot of fun theories. I can of course neither confirm nor deny anything. ;)
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Speaking of conversation, could you clarify something? Previously we have used the Crown to ask what [Perfected Principle of Consumption] was. We learned it was a Neverborn, and got at least some successes on understanding what it is (I think that was the first time there was a roll involved in understanding the crown, and we sadly didn't use an excellency). We almost certainly got enough to recognize it on sight / feel. And, if I am not mistaken, we also somehow either learned or deduced that Black Court was made by it (I think it was Bob's knowledge that provided the information). So, how does this mesh with the current situation? If this is the progeny of Black Court before us, are we speaking to an avatar (Fetich, Jotun, whatever) of [Perfected Principle of Consumption]?
 
Yog said:
Speaking of conversation, could you clarify something? Previously we have used the Crown to ask what [Perfected Principle of Consumption] was. We learned it was a Neverborn, and got at least some successes on understanding what it is (I think that was the first time there was a roll involved in understanding the crown, and we sadly didn't use an excellency). We almost certainly got enough to recognize it on sight / feel. And, if I am not mistaken, we also somehow either learned or deduced that Black Court was made by it (I think it was Bob's knowledge that provided the information). So, how does this mesh with the current situation? If this is the progeny of Black Court before us, are we speaking to an avatar (Fetich, Jotun, whatever) of [Perfected Principle of Consumption]?
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As far as Molly can intuit: The being before you seems distinct from the Sea, it is standing up here on the ledge not swimming down there in the water.
 
DragonParadox said:
As far as Molly can intuit: The being before you seems distinct from the Sea, it is standing up here on the ledge not swimming down there in the water.
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Is the Ocean connected to [Perfected Principle of Consumption] from what Molly can sense / understand?

In any case if Lamentations of the Void is a separate entity, the "Abyssal exalt" theory becomes more plausible.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yog on Feb 7, 2025 at 5:58 PM, finished with 60 posts and 12 votes.
  • [X] Keep it talking, if it's going to give you free insights you won't say no
    -[X] Activate All Things Betray with Willpower, Empathy excellency
    -[X] Use the Crown on the scene to understand the true nature of the thing in front of you
    --[X] If a roll is needed to understand the results, activate Occult Excellency
    -[X] "You speak of the world without sun being free, but have you ever thought that the Sun was born... so shadows would exist?" you speak, leading, goading the dreadful being into speaking more.
    [X] Plan Devil and the Deep Dark Sea
    -[X] Full social buffs and FPoR
    -[X] Try to tempt the spirit into taking a deal to interact with the living in a more hospitable way in our service, the goal being to build towards a personal rebirth into something that can truly live instead of merely exist.
    -[X] Attempt to use MiS and FSB to allow the shadow something closer to life.
    -[X] [Stunt]: Straightening up to her full height, Molly drank deeply of her own distant light - setting the colors of an alien dawn flickering behind her eyes.
    —[X] "You asked us if it would be so bad to live without the sun, but I'm more interested in your answer" meeting its empty eyes, a poisonous curiosity seeped into her voice. "You watch the sea, but seek the surface. Mock the living for their delusions, but seep into those prisons of bone to steal them".
    —[X] "You are of the dark's hunger, but do not want to be satisfied". The smile of a child filled to bursting with a secret cut across her face like a knife as she leaned forward. "Isn't the light beautiful? Are not the dreams tantalizing?"
    —-[X] "Is this really enough for you?". The radiance of her anima burned with new intensity, but did not banish or pierce the darkness so much as reach out to it.
    —[X] "You know what I am too. The wheel turns, and in my strange eons why must you eternal lie?"
    [X] Keep it talking, if it's going to give you free insights you won't say no
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The fact that the goddamn Neverborn might hear us asking questions changes the risk equation a bit.

With my plan maybe we trigger violence or a negative reaction from the sea, but the slower route is taking a similarly unknown risk of the same outcome. Even if it doesn't work the reaction should be informative. We really don't want a reaction like Demonreach's from this place.



The slow approach in general has advantages, but do not upskirt the elder god.
 
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