Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest

[Andres]

The issue is voter will, not ability.

The problem can be offset further if we spend more of our normal turn actions to study or do diplomatic/trade expeditions, as those don't cost temp econ.

Click to shrink...

You want to start talking voter will, you're just adding an extra dimension for why your ideas are the least workable in practice. Two Agriculture passives works with voter will and accounts for it. Your plan irrationally believes voters will bend their plans to adhere to it consistently enough. They won't. Necessity, desire, willingness to take risk, mistake, misunderstanding, chance, and disagreement will all for reasons - justified and not - continue to make your plan non-viable in an additional way. Setting things up so our civilisation only functions if players keep voting a certain way has failed every time it's been tried before and will continue to do so.

Your plan relies on voters sticking to your will in this matter throughout significant parts of the rest of the game (if not its entirety) and that will not actually end up happening however much you think it can or will. Even in the purely hypothetical and utterly unreasonable scenario where players do try to stick as closely to your idea as possible, it only further magnifies the current problem of inflexibility. Sec Expand Econ every other turn has been bad enough, but now you want to restrict our options even further by reserving even more actions in the name of keeping up temp econ.

Your optimisation models cannot and will not work in practice, only in one's imagination. Give up on them.

EDIT: We have 6 passive policies on Infrastructure. We are very good on that front. Optimisation models are bad enough but it's difficult to find one as little justified as one built to further expand our infrastructure. As someone who has strongly championed for infrastructure before, let me say that we can leave that alone, that we don't have to keep accelerating our infrastructure growth. Our biggest problem isn't lacking enough infrastructure construction, it's cyclically low temp econ and the resulting action restriction we have to constantly inflict on ourselves.

 

[Qeqre]

You want to start talking voter will, you're just adding an extra dimension for why your ideas are the least workable in practice. Two Agriculture passives works with voter will and accounts for it. Your plan irrationally believes voters will bend their plans to adhere to it consistently enough. They won't. Necessity, desire, willingness to take risk, mistake, misunderstanding, chance, and disagreement will all for reasons - justified and not - continue to make your plan non-viable in an additional way. Setting things up so our civilisation only functions if players keep voting a certain way has failed every time it's been tried before and will continue to do so.

Your plan relies on voters sticking to your will in this matter throughout significant parts of the rest of the game (if not its entirety) and that will not actually end up happening however much you think it can or will. Even in the purely hypothetical and utterly unreasonable scenario where players do try to stick as closely to your idea as possible, it only further magnifies the current problem of inflexibility. Sec Expand Econ every other turn has been bad enough, but now you want to restrict our options even further by reserving even more actions in the name of keeping up temp econ.

Your optimisation models cannot and will not work in practice, only in one's imagination. Give up on them.

EDIT: We have 6 passive policies on Infrastructure. We are very good on that front. Optimisation models are bad enough but it's difficult to find one as little justified as one built to further expand our infrastructure. As someone who has strongly championed for infrastructure before, let me say that we can leave that alone, that we don't have to keep accelerating our infrastructure growth. Our biggest problem isn't lacking enough infrastructure construction, it's cyclically low temp econ and the resulting action restriction we have to constantly inflict on ourselves.

Click to shrink...

You seem to misunderstand.
The whole point of making an effort to bank up Econ is that having reserves allows us to be inconsistent. Irrationality and random events is the sort of thing buffers are for. Temp Econ is only forcing the SEC Farming because at the moment because we haven't been giving it any chance to recover.

Compared to double agriculture passive and SEC infrastructure, a double infrastructure passive and SEC Econ saves us two SEC actions worth of infrastructure resource costs, one SEC actions' worth of infrastructure being built and adds an innovation roll every turn.
Comparatively speaking, the Agriculture passive isn't just sub-optimal. It's just plain bad.

If people immediately want things like Study, Trade, Foreign, Forestry etc on those passive policy slots instead of infrastructure? That's fine, I'm open to having that discussion. Just like we can have this discussion on the Agriculture passive.

The reason I want to go ham on infrastructure is because getting things like walls, aqueducts and libraries integrated means we don't get another 9+ pieces of unfinished infrastructure every time Pioneering Values shits out another settlement in the future, which means we won't need as many infrastructure passives to keep our backlog stable or shrinking relative to the current rate of expansion. This increases action freedom.

.

The infrastructure passive currently needs to work through Mines, Small Walls, Roads, Aqueducts, Libraries, Large Walls, Messengers and Expand Econs(backlog of 204-290 SEC actions depending on whether or not Large Walls and Expand Econs require 1 infrastructure passive tick or 2 infrastructure passive ticks).
At 6 infrastructure passives, that's 34-48 turns to fill the current backlog. With Sacred Forests serving as an overflow point and Sewers/Academies unlocking yet another piece of infrastructure for every settlement(amounting to just over 7 turns at 6 infrastructure passives each).
We have a 50% chance of a new settlement every turn(with the 50% exploration chance stumbling across new mines a lot). Each of those new settlements currently adds a Small Wall, Road, Aqueduct, Library, Large Wall, Messenger and Expand Econ to the backlog. Later on, each of these settlements will require a Sewer and an Academy(each adding another 43 at our current settlement count and 45 once we get the +2 passive policies).
On average, current demand for new infrastructure rises 7-9 non-Forest SECs every two turns(9-11 if you count the Sewers/Academies). On average, that means we reduce the backlog by 2.5-1.5(1.5-0.5) SEC infrastructure per turn(causing us to catch up at a rate of 0.416/0.25/0.083 turns per turn and delaying us [numberOfSettlements/6] turns for every new type of infrastructure we unlock).
Six infrastructure and competing factions is very optimal for ensuring we fill the backlog very slowly so we'll unlock more infrastructure before we get the previous types completely integrated. Which soft locks us into having a lot of infrastructure passives throughout significant parts of the rest of the game(if not its entirety) which is unreasonable and should be avoided. Having too many different types of un-integrated infrastructure also means we'll need to manually spend temp Econ whenever the factions are too divided on what new infrastructure they want, which causes further temp econ-related headaches later on.
Those 2-3 extra infrastructure passives could mean the difference between integrating the small walls+roads+aqueducts+libraries in 2350 AG or in 3250 AG.

I don't want to be stuck with most of our passives filling in the infrastructure backlog forever. That's why I want more infrastructure passives in the short-mid term.

 

[Andres]

Not going to respond to the larger point yet. Want to tackle the small bits first.

Irrationality and random events is the sort of thing buffers are for.

Click to shrink...

Irrationality and random events will prevent us from getting those buffers. Last turn I was thinking that this turn would be our last buffer action - get Sec Expand Econ one more time and then we're done. Instead we have this entire mess we needed to dedicate all our actions to. Next turn it's unlikely we can get the buffer either.

Sec Empower Cadlon for the faction quest
Sec Aqueduct for the faction quest
Sec Library for the faction quest
Main Trade Expedition (Caradysh) because if we don't deal with the Arthwyd's racism towards the undead it's gonna continue causing major issues, and we want to arm the Caradysh with bronze so they can better fight the Nersondur
Sec Venerate to make up for any lost Stability from the above

Now, it's possible that this turn's Infrastructure passives will finish the library and aqueduct this turn, but it's not guaranteed, and even if they did, new faction quests or random events will likely fill up those slots very quickly. Ignoring a faction request or random event to build up a buffer is something that'll have consequences, typically more severe than the consequences of not building up a buffer.

Getting a buffer is a difficult and risky undertaking and it'll continue to be difficult and risky.

Compared to double agriculture passive and SEC infrastructure, a double infrastructure passive and SEC Econ saves us two SEC actions worth of infrastructure resource costs, one SEC actions' worth of infrastructure being built and adds an innovation roll every turn.
Comparatively speaking, the Agriculture passive isn't just sub-optimal. It's just plain bad.

Click to shrink...

You've already covered this before and I've already covered why this is entirely the wrong way to look at it.

We have a 50% chance of a new settlement every turn(with the 50% exploration chance stumbling across new mines a lot).

Click to shrink...

Actually it's 50% chance of nothing, 50% chance of exploration or a new settlement, so one new settlement every 4 turns on average.

Having too many different types of un-integrated infrastructure also means we'll need to manually spend temp Econ whenever the factions are too divided on what new infrastructure they want, which causes further temp econ-related headaches later on.

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure that the faction requests are influenced by what passive policies we have active. I don't believe we'd be getting so many infrastructure requests - and for the requests to ask for as much as they do - if we didn't already have 6 passives on the job. Adding more infrastructure passives won't alleviate the factions' infrastructure requests. The divisions will drain us of actions just as much as if we'd gotten two Agriculture passives instead, except we won't have the extra temp econ to pay for them.

 

[Oshha]

[X] They try to stop the Forluc. (-1 Diplo, Furious Forlucans, -1 Legitimacy, -1 Stability, ???)
[X] [MAIN] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
[X] [MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Support Subordinate = (Forluc)
[X] [SEC] Support Subordinate = (Forden)

Merntir: Roads & Libraries
Maradysh: Roads & Temples
Caermyr: Roads & Trading
Grythwyd: Roads & Saltern
Raradysh: Farming & Expansion
Zaradysh: Farming & Expansion
Tordysh: Farming & Expansion
Cernn: Walls & Warriors
Lorvysh: Warriors & Boats
Forluc: Plague Control
Forden: Farming & Temples

While many did not see the problem with the Forlucan going to war with the Caradysh to reclaim their lost lands, the Cadlon Olwyn of the Arthwyd did not want to set the precedent of allowing vassals to independent declare war without the consent of the Cadlon. It did not matter if the Caradysh deserved or the Forluc had a righteous cause, that part of the Cadlon's authority was something too important to concede to local leadership, especially if they were savage barbarians.

There were other concerns of course such as while the Caradysh were evil undead abominations, they would almost certainly prove to be better neighbours than the warlike and barbaric Nersondur. Even if for the sake of pragmatism and self-interest, the Foresters could be counted upon to keep the peace while the Nersondurans were too unreliable to make for good neighbours.

And of course, there was the question of if the Arthwyd Empire was capable of winning that fight. The Caradysh Empire had certainly been losing to the Nersonduran invaders for the last few generations, but the Arthwyd also knew that the Caradysh had over twenty thousand undead Boarfolk riders with their mounts. None of this undead cavalry had been deployed yet so while the Forlucans might have been confident in their chances, the Arthwyd with their accurate ancient records were more wary.

The end result was a three-pronged plan by Cadlon Olwyn to deal with the situation long term in an acceptable manner that not only retain the Cadlon's authority but keep the southern borders of the Arthwyd Empire secure and let the Forluc reclaim their ancestral lands.

The first part of the plan was to keep the Forlucans from going to war without the Cadlon's authority. The second part was to appease the Forlucans to keep them loyal and minimise the fallout of stopping their war plans. The third part was to reach out to the Caradysh and see if a peaceful return of the conquered Forlucan heartlands could be arranged.

The first and second parts went hand in hand as when the priestesses went down with the Catclaws and Cateyes to stop the Forluc going to war, they also brought gifts, resources, and other supplies to hand over to the Forluc. Expecting that they would have to subdue a bunch of unruly barbarians, the Arthwydish were quite surprised to find themselves dealing with a plague outbreak as disease was rapidly spreading throughout the lands of the Forluc.

While the Forluc were not at all happy to have their plans for war cancelled, they accepted the state of affairs between the Arthwydish aid and the fact that the surprise plague outbreak and left them unable to effectively wage war even without anything else happening.

Of course, the Forlucans were far from happy from being told by the Cadlon that they could not wage their desired war but appeasing them would be a problem for another day. For now, the Forluc were unable to wage war and even without the Cadlon telling them that they could not, the Forden would not start a war with the Caradysh without their fellow Forlucans to support them. Especially since they could not count on Arthwydish support either.

Fortunately, the talks with the Caradysh might provide the solution to that issue just as had been hoped. The initial contact was done by proxies due to the lack of existing contact between the Arthwyd and the Caradysh, but face to face talks with the Foresters soon commenced.

Things were pleasant as the Caradysh were open, polite, and courteous to the point that one could almost mistake them for being regular people rather than undead abominations. Still, it validated the old theories that it is possible to maintain peaceful diplomatic relations with the Caradysh for good or ill depending on what you where you stood politically.

As had been hoped, the Caradysh were willing to give up the conquered Forlucan lands, but has expected, the Foresters were demanding a hefty price. Thankfully, they were giving some leeway on just what price got paid so long as it was paid.

The first option was the one that the Arthwyd had initially expected, which was that the Arthwyd Empire would aid the Caradysh Empire against the Nersondur invaders. Of course, this meant not just holding the line, but actually driving them out of the Lowlands. The biggest issue was that the Nersondurans had become quite entrenched over the last few generations and by now, there would be young Nersonduran warriors who had been born and raised in the Lowlands. And then there was the fact that this meant supporting the Caradysh Empire and ensuring their continued dominance over the southern Lowlands.

On the other hand, the Caradysh had seen a resurgence over the last few winters as they finally unleashed their undead cavalry upon the Nersondurans. The barbarians from the Far South found themselves utterly unprepared for this new threat and the consistent rumour was that the Caradysh had seen a reversal of their previous fortunes even if the extent of the reversal was subject to differing takes.

The second option was that the Arthwyd teach the Caradysh the secrets of metalworking. The Foresters did not expect all of the Arthwydish metallurgy secrets, but they did expect enough knowledge to be shared that they could smelt and forge their own metal goods without needing the aid of Arthwydish or Forlucan metalworkers.

The final possibility was that the Arthwyd grant the Caradysh right of passage throughout Arthwydish lands. While nothing was openly said, both sides understood that any agreement of this nature would have its limits, but it did mean that revenants of the Caradysh could openly visit places like Caermyr or Greenbay and even further flung places like the Western Coast or the North Coast. And the Arthwyd had no idea why the undead abominations had asked for this because it surely could not be for the obvious possibility of spying.

Of course, there was always the option of not coming to any agreement, but that would certainly antagonise the Forlucans even further than they had already been enraged.

How do the talks with the Caradysh conclude?
[] [Diplo] The Arthwyd agree to drive out the Nersondur out of the Lowlands in exchange for the return of the ancestral Forlucan heartlands. (Arthwyd Empire goes to war with the Nersondur, Diplo++, Increased Forlucan opinion, ???)
[] [Diplo] The Arthwyd agree to share the secret of metalworking in exchange for the return of the ancestral Forlucan heartlands. (Caradysh Empire gains Metallurgy, Diplo++, Increased Forlucan opinion, ???)
[] [Diplo] The Arthwyd agree to give the Caradysh free passage throughout the Arthwyd Empire in exchange for the return of the ancestral Forlucan heartlands. (Caradysh Empire gains open borders with the Arthwyd Empire, Diplo++, Increased Forlucan opinion, ???)
[] [Diplo] The talks end without any agreement being made. (Outraged Forlucans, ???)

Other events of note were less politically charged. The Arthwyd Empire continued to see an upswing of construction along the Arth Coast as old, regularly used trails were upgraded into paved roads that were easy to travel along and more conductive to quicker and longer journeys. Furthermore, very few of these roads were done on the Cadlon's authority as the local communities worked together to see the improvements that were taking place done.

And then there was the formation of the Halbarnwyd, the Eastern People. Arranged by the commonly called old community, prominent political leaders who supported the current way of life, favouring no major changes to the Arthwydish livelihood, a new Arthwydish colony was being founded in the Far East. Not quite as far as the Achlanders or the Hielwalders, but it was would be the furthest that any member of the Arthwyd had travelled from Greenbay to settle even if some had gone further in the name of trade or exploration.

Had it not been for the recent business with the Caradysh and the Forluc, the foundation of the Halbarnwyd would have been the biggest and most important event of the generation. As things were, it took a backseat as the controversial and critical talks with the Caradysh took up all of the attention and focus from the political movers and shakers.

And none seriously considered the possibility of the Arthwyd Empire being unable to defend the distant Halbarnwyd. Afterall the Arthwyd Empire had yet to lose a war and who could possible successful take on the unmatched might of the Arthwyd?

Spoiler: Factions

Conservatives (9.1/10) = Goals: Stability and the status quo, Mood: Mixed, Ability: +1 Passive Policy per 4 Faction Power, Objective: Do 3 Settle Lands times in 5 Turns, Success/Failure: Free Road/Temp Diplo--
Gerontocrats (0.9/10) = Goals: Empowerment of the Elders, Mood: Furious, Ability: Econ+ per 1 Faction Power, Objective: Do 2 Expand Econs in 3 Turns, Success/Failure: -/Temp Econ-
Theocrats (4.3/20) = Goals: Empowerment of the Priesthood, Mood: Very Happy, Ability: +1 to Mystic per 1 Faction Power, Objective: Venerate the Goddesses in 3 Turns, Success/Failure: Free More Messengers/-
Monarchists (7.1/10) = Goals: Empowerment of the Cadlon, Mood: Satisfied, Ability: Free Secondary Action per 5 Faction Power, Objective: Empower the Cadlon in 1 Turns, Success/Failure: Temp Econ++/-
Centralists (7.3/10) = Goals: Increased centralisation, Mood: Satisfied, Ability: +1 to Upper Centralisation Limit per 3 Faction Power, Objective: Empower the Cadlon in 4 Turns, Success/Failure: +1 Stability/Temp Wealth-
Localists (5.3/10) = Goals: Decreased centralisation, Mood: Happy, Ability: -1 to Lower Centralisation Limit per 3 Faction Power, Objective: Build 3 Libraries in 4 Turns, Success/Failure: Free Innovation Roll/-
Militarists (3.1/10) = Goals: Stronger military and increased warfare, Mood: Pleased, Ability: Martial+ per 2 Faction Power, Objective: Build 2 Walls in 1 Turns, Success/Failure: Free Road/-
Isolationists (1.1/10) = Goals: No interactions with foreigners and their lands, Mood: Upset, Ability: Diplo- per 2 Faction Power, Objective: Avoid contact with the Nersondur for 2 Turns, Success/Failure: Temp Econ+/-
Explorists (8/10) = Goals: Exploration of the world, Mood: Neutral, Ability: +1 to Exploration Rolls per 1 Faction Power, Objective: Make contact with a new people in 3 Turns, Success/Failure: Free Stability/Temp Wealth--
Traderists (7/10) = Goals: Thriving trade networks, Mood: Annoyed, Ability: Wealth+ per 1 Faction Power, Objective: Do 3 Plant Cash Crops in 4 Turns, Success/Failure: Free Sacred Forest/Temp Econ-
Internalists (5.2/10) = Goals: Internal development, Mood: Happy, Ability: +1 Econ per 1 Faction Power, Objective: Build 4 Roads in 3 Turns, Success/Failure: Temp Econ++/-
Pacifists (7.4/10) = Goals: No violence or offensive wars, Mood: Happy, Ability: Chance relative to faction power to negate Stability loss while at peace, Objective: Open up trade with the Nersondur in 2 Turns, Success/Failure: Free Innovation Roll/-
Purists (1.3/10) = Goals: No barbarians and their ways, Mood: Pleased, Ability: Diplo- per 2 Faction Power, Objective: Build 2 Walls within 2 Turns, Success/Failure: Temp Econ+/-

You have one Main Action and four Secondary Actions. Two Secondary Actions make a single Main Action. No plan voting or write-ins.
Please tag actions as [SEC] & [MAIN].

You will probably want to get more Temp Econ than you lose to avoid Bad ThingsTM.

Spoiler: Action List

[] [SEC/MAIN] Build Boats
S: Temp Econ-, Temp Diplo+, Temp Wealth++, Chance of Innovation,
M: Temp Econ--, Temp Diplo+, Temp Wealth++, Additional Effects, Chance of Innovation,

[] [SEC/MAIN] Build Aqueduct = (Target)
S: Temp Econ--, +1 Aqueduct (Econ+ per 3 Aqueducts),
M: Temp Econ---, +2 Aqueducts (Econ+ per 3 Aqueducts),
-Possible Targets: Greenbay (3/15), Rockbay (1/6), Sunrise Bay (1/6), Northern Sunset Plains (1/6), Eastern Rock River (0/6), Western Rock River (0/5)

[] [SEC/MAIN] Build Library = (Target)
S: Temp Econ--, Temp Mystic-, Temp Culture-, +1 Library (Tech+ per Library)
M: Temp Econ----, Temp Mystic-, Temp Culture-, +2 Libraries (Tech++ per Library),
-Possible Targets: Greenbay (2/15), Rockbay (1/6), Sunrise Bay (1/6), Northern Sunset Plains (1/6), Eastern Rock River (0/6), Western Rock River (0/5)

[] [SEC/MAIN] Build Roads = (Target)
S: Temp Econ-, Temp Mystic+, +1 Road,
M: Temp Econ--, Temp Mystic+, +2 Roads,
-Possible Targets: Greenbay (5/15), Rockbay (2/6), Sunrise Bay (2/6), Northern Sunset Plains (2/6), Eastern Rock River (2/6), Western Rock River (1/5)

[] [SEC/MAIN] Build Wall = (Target)
S: Temp Econ--, +1 Small Wall,
M: Temp Econ--, +1 Large Wall,
-Possible Targets: Greenbay (Small: 7/15, Large: 0/15), Rockbay (Small: 6/6, Large: 0/6), Sunrise Bay (Small: 3/6, Large: 0/6), Northern Sunset Plains (Small: 6/6, Large: 0/6), Eastern Rock River (Small: 6/6, Large: 0/6), Western Rock River (Small: 4/5, Large: 0/5)

[] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (11/11)
-Agriculture = Temp Econ++ every turn.
-Arts = Temp Culture+ every turn.
-Diplomacy = Temp Diplo+ every turn.
-Education = Temp Tech+ every Turn.
-Empire = Increases Subordinate loyalty while active. (2)
-Expansion = +0.5 Settlement Progress every turn.
-Exploration = Free Exploration roll every turn.
-Foreign = Free Diplomatic Outreach every turn. (1)
-Forestry = 0.5 Sacred Forest Progress every turn. (1)
-Fortifications = +1 Wall Progress every turn.
-Glory = +1 Prestige every turn.
-Infrastructure = +1 regular infrastructure progress every turn. (6)
-Megaproject = +0.25 Megaproject progress per turn.
-Military = Temp Martial+ every turn.
-Religion = Temp Mystic+ every turn.
-Study = Free Innovation roll every turn. (1)
-Trade = Free Trade Expedition every turn.
-Wealth = Temp Wealth+ every turn.
-War = Free War Party every turn.

[] [SEC/MAIN] Cultivate Medical Plants.
S: Temp Econ-, Temp Mystic+, Chance of Innovation,
M: Temp Econ-, Temp Martial+, Temp Mystic+, Chance of Innovation,

[] [SEC/MAIN] Develop Mine = (Target)
S: Temp Econ--, +1 Mine, Chance of Additional Effects,
M: Temp Econ---, +2 Mines, Chance of Additional Effects,
-Possible Targets: Sunrise Mountains (Bismuth: 0/1, Lead/Silver: 2/2, Tin: 2/2), Sunset Mountains (Copper/Silver: 1/1, Lead/Silver: 1/1, Nickel: 0/1, Soakstone: 0/1), Rock River (Copper: 1/1, Gold: 1/1)

[] [SEC/MAIN] Diplomatic Outreach = (Target)
S: Temp Wealth--, Temp Diplo+, Chance of increased relationship, more knowledge about the outside world,
M: Temp Wealth----, Temp Diplo++, Improved Chance of increased relationship, more knowledge about the outside world,
-Possible Targets: Caermyr, Cernn, Grythwyd, Halbarnwyd, Merntir, Maradysh, Raradysh, Tordysh, Zaradysh, Achland (Requires Main), Boarfolk Nomads, Bruraysh, Caradysh, Diondairysh, Forden, Fordysh, Forluc, Fornn, Hamefordysh, Hielwald (Requires Main), Lochanysh, Lorvysh, Nersondur (Requires Main), Sinsearysh,

[] [SEC/MAIN] Empower Cadlon
S: Temp Mystic-, +1 Centralisation,
M: Temp Mystic--, +2 Centralisation

[] [SEC/MAIN] Expand Econ.
S: Temp Econ++++, Chance of Innovation,
M: Temp Econ++, Econ+ (6/44), Improved Chance of Innovation,

[] [SEC/MAIN] Explore Lands = (Target)
S: Temp Econ-, Temp Martial-, Chance of new discovery,
M: Temp Econ-, Temp Martial-, Improved Chance of new discovery,
-Possible Targets: Arth Coast, Cursed Forest, Far East (Requires Main), Far South (Requires Main), Great Mountain, North Coast, Northern Lowlands, Sea, Southern Lowlands, Sunset Mountains, Sunrise Mountains, Western Coast,

[] [MAIN] Found Colony = (Target)
M: Temp Econ---, Temp Martial-, Temp Mystic-, Temp Culture-, +1 Colony
-Possible Targets: Sunrise Mountains, Sunset Mountains

[] [SEC/MAIN] More Messengers.
S: Temp Econ-, +1 Messengers, (8/44),
M: Temp Econ--, +2 Messengers, (8/44),

[] [SEC/MAIN] Plant Cash Crops.
S: Temp Econ-, Temp Wealth++, Chance of Innovation,
M: Econ-, Temp Econ-, Wealth+, Temp Wealth+, Improved Chance of Innovation

[] [SEC/MAIN] Plant Sacred Forests
S: Temp Econ--, Temp Mystic-, +0.5 Sacred Forest,
M: Temp Econ----, -2 Temp Mystic-, +1 Sacred Forest,
-Sacred Forests = 13

[] [SEC/MAIN] Settle Land = (Target)
S: Temp Econ----, Temp Martial-, Econ+ Temp Mystic+, +1 Settlement Progress (Mystic++ per 3 Progress in a province, Mystic ++ per Progress in Province),
M: Temp Econ-------, Temp Martial-, Econ++ Temp Mystic+, +2 Settlement Progress (Mystic++ per 3 Progress in a province, Mystic ++ per Progress in Province),
-Possible Targets: Greenbay (15/15), Rockbay (6/15), Eastern Rock River (6/15), Western Rock River (5/15), Sunrise Bay (6/15), Northern Sunset Plains (6/15), North-West Sunrise Plains (0/15), Eastern Sunset Plains (0/15), Southern Sunset Plains (0/15),

[] [SEC/MAIN] Study Magic.
S: Temp Mystic-, Chance of Innovation,
M: Temp Mystic--, Improved Chance of Innovation

[] [SEC/MAIN] Study Metal.
S: Temp Mystic-, Chance of Innovation,
M: Temp Mystic--, Improved Chance of Innovation

[] [SEC/MAIN] Study Nature.
S: Temp Mystic-, Chance of Innovation,
M: Temp Mystic--, Improved Chance of Innovation

[] [SEC/MAIN] Support Subordinate = (Target)
S: Temp Econ-, Chance of relationship change,
M: Temp Econ--, Improved Chance of relationship change,
-Possible Targets: Caermyr, Cernn, Forluc, Forden, Grythwyd, Halbarnwyd, Lorvysh, Merntir, Maradysh, Raradysh, Tordysh, Zaradysh

[] [SEC/MAIN] Trade Expedition = (Target)
S: Temp Diplo-, Temp Wealth+, Chance of increased relationship, more knowledge about the outside world,
M: Temp Diplo-, Temp Wealth++, Improved Chance of increased relationship, more knowledge about the outside world,
-Possible Targets: Caermyr, Cernn, Grythwyd, Halbarnwyd, Merntir, Maradysh, Raradysh, Tordysh, Zaradysh, Achland (Requires Main), Boarfolk Nomads, Bruraysh, Caradysh, Diondairysh, Forden, Fordysh, Forluc, Fornn, Hamefordysh, Hielwald (Requires Main), Lochanysh, Lorvysh, Nersondur (Requires Main), Sinsearysh,

[] [SEC/MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors
S: Temp Econ-, Temp Mystic-, Temp Martial+, Chance of Innovation,
M: Econ-, Temp Mystic-, Martial+, Temp Martial+, Improved Chance of Innovation,

[] [SEC/MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses
S: Temp Econ-, Temp Mystic++, Temp Culture+, Chance of +1 Stability, Chance of +1 Legitimacy,
M: Temp Econ--, Temp Mystic+++, Temp Culture+, Improved Chance of +1 Stability, Improved Chance of +1 Legitimacy,

[] [SEC/MAIN] Wage War = (Target)
S: Temp Econ-, Chance of damaging target, Chance of losing up to Temp Martial+,
M: Temp Econ--, Temp Martial+, Greater chance of damaging target, Chance of losing up to Temp Martial++,
-Possible Targets: -Possible Targets: Achland, Boarfolk Nomads, Bruraysh, Caradysh, Diondairysh, East Men, Fordysh, Fornn, Hamefordysh, Hielwald, Lochanysh, Nersondur, Sinsearysh,

Mega-Projects
[] [SEC/MAIN] Academy
S: Temp Econ--, Temp Martial-, Temp Mystic----, +2 Progress
M: Temp Econ----, Temp Martial--, Temp Mystic--------, +4 Progress
-Progress: 0/???

[] [SEC/MAIN] Sewers
S: Temp Econ--, Temp Mystic--, Temp Wealth----, +2 Progress
M: Temp Econ----, Temp Mystic----, Temp Wealth--------, +4 Progress
-Progress: 0/???

***​

A bunch of stuff happened this turn. The talks with the Caradysh went well and while they are open for returning the land, they want something meaningful in return. Between the Cadlon telling them no, the plague outbreak and the talks with the Caradysh, the Forlucans have temporarily stepped back from declaring war on the Caradysh.

Beyond that, the Conservatives founded a new colony in the Far East, the location being rolled for on a D3 to pick which of the three possible sites got chosen. Otherwise, more roads got built, you got a couple new techs and the Arthwyd have finally got the Coughing Plague under control.

Please point out any spelling or grammar mistakes that you spot. Please quote them in the thread and explain what you think is wrong so I know what you are referring to. Feel to ask questions for more details and information.

Spoiler: Civ Sheet

The Arthwyd
Ancient Theocratic Elective Monarchy
Upper Centralisation Limit: 8
Lower Centralisation Limit: -2
Admin Strain Free Provinces: 6
Penalty Accumulation: Additional +2 Lower Centralisation required per 1 Province
Player Actions: 1 Main Action + 1 Secondary Action +1 Secondary Action per 2 Provinces
Passive Policies: 1 +1 per 2 Provinces.
Subordinates: 2 + Prestige/10
Special: Gain Crisis Resistance+ per Province
Special: Free Subordinate Slot for Subordinates that share the same religion per a point of Legitimacy.
Special: Monarchs are more likely to be competent.

Early Ancient Palace Economy
Crisis Damage: Event, Crisis Damage- per 1 Centralisation.
Wealth Generation: 1 per Dominant.
Passive Policies: 1 +1 per 2 Provinces.
Additional Actions: None
Special: Negative Centralisation or lower than Minimum Centralisation will lead to collapse.

Stats
Diplo: Decent (Extremely High)
Econ: Immense Farms and Manpower (Low)
Martial: Good (Average)
Mystic: Effectively Limitless (Average)
Culture: Low (Extremely High)
Tech: Somewhat Low (Above Average)
Wealth: Very Wealth (Very High)

Legitimacy: 3/3
Stability: 2/3
Centralisation: 6 (1/11)
Hierarchy: 4

Statuses
Centre of Trade (Caermyr): Temp Wealth+ every Turn.
Centre of Trade (Greenbay): Temp Wealth+ every Turn.
Coughing Plague (Medium Plague): d6 Crisis every Turn.
Expensive Free Labour: All Wealth Costs are greatly increased, +2 to Innovation Rolls,
King of the Hill: Temp Diplo+ at the start of every Turn.
Trade Dominance (Bronze Goods): Wealth++
Trade Dominance (Copper Goods): Wealth+
Trade Dominance (Gold Goods): Wealth++
Trade Dominance (Silver Goods): Wealth+
Trade Deficit (Honey): Wealth--

Spoiler: Prestige Ranking

Prestige Ranking
Arthwyd: 71
Nersondur = 63
Maradysh = 46
Merntir = 43
Caradysh = 38
Caermyr = 32
Forluc = 28
Grythwyd = 25
Cernn = 24
Achland = 22
Hielwald = 21
Boarfolk Nomads = 20
Zaradysh = 18
Forden = 15
Tordysh = 14
Raradysh = 13
Lorvysh = 12
Fordysh = 10
Fornn = 10
Forzea = 8
Lochanysh = 8
Diondairysh = 6
Hamefordysh = 5
Sinsearysh = 5
Bruraysh = 4

Spoiler: Diplomatic Relations

Diplomatic Relations
Status/Frequency of Contact
Achland = Independent/None
-Your Opinion 4/10
-Their Opinion = 4/10
Boarfolk Nomads = Independent/High
-Your Opinion 8.5/10
-Their Opinion = 8.5/10
Bruraysh = Nersondur Vassal/None
-Your Opinion 3/10
-Their Opinion = 5/10
Caradysh = Independent/Wilfully Limited
-Your Opinion 3.5/10
-Their Opinion = 7/10
Diondairysh = Caradysh Vassal/None
-Your Opinion 3/10
-Their Opinion = 5/10
Fordysh = Caradysh Vassal/Limited
-Your Opinion 3/10
-Their Opinion = 7.2/10
Fornn = Caradysh Vassal/Limited
-Your Opinion 3/10
-Their Opinion = 7/10
Forzea = Nersondur Vassal/None
-Your Opinion 3/10
-Their Opinion = 7/10
Hamefordysh = Caradysh Vassal/Some
-Your Opinion 3/10
-Their Opinion = 5.5/10
Hielwald = Independent/None
-Your Opinion 4/10
-Their Opinion = 4/10
Lochanysh = Independent/None
-Your Opinion 2/10
-Their Opinion = 2/10
Nersondur = Independent/None
-Your Opinion 4/10
-Their Opinion = 5/10
Sinsearysh = Caradysh Vassal/Limited
-Your Opinion 3/10
-Their Opinion = 5/10

Spoiler: Subordinates

Subordinates
8/9 Subordinates
3/3 Religious Subordinates
1/1 Colony

Type/Dependence
Caermyr = Religious Trade Post/Very Low
-Your Opinion 9/10
-Their Opinion = 10/10
Cernn = Religious Vassal/Very Low
-Your Opinion 7/10
-Their Opinion = 10/10
Forden = Vassal/Low
-Your Opinion 6/10
-Their Opinion = 8/10
Forluc = Vassal/Low
-Your Opinion 6.5/10
-Their Opinion = 8.5/10
Grythwyd = Religious Colony/Very Low
-Your Opinion 9/10
-Their Opinion = 10/10
Halbarnwyd = Religious Colony/Very Low
-Your Opinion 9/10
-Their Opinion = 10/10
Lorvysh = Vassal/Low
-Your Opinion 4/10
-Their Opinion = 9/10
Maradysh = Religious Vassal/Very Low
-Your Opinion 8/10
-Their Opinion = 10/10
Merntir = Religious Vassal/Very Low
-Your Opinion 9.5/10
-Their Opinion = 10/10
Raradysh = Colony/Low
-Your Opinion 6/10
-Their Opinion = 9/10
Tordysh = Vassal/Low
-Your Opinion 6/10
-Their Opinion = 9/10
Zaradysh = Colony/Low
-Your Opinion 6/10
-Their Opinion = 9/10

Values & Legacies
Agricultural Innovators: +1 Temp Econ to Farming actions.
Ancient Bureaucracy: +2 Passive Policies
Ancient Centre of Civilisation (Great Bay): Extra Innovation Roll at the start of each turn.
Blessing of Bronwyn: Gain +1 to all Diplomacy Rolls.
Blessing of Mairyn: Gain +2 to all Exploration Rolls.
Bronze Blooded: +2 Temp Econ to Econ Generation Actions.
Chosen of Arthryn: Gain +1 to all Innovation Rolls.
Colonial Empire: +1 Colony Slot.
Rush Builders: Extended Projects take less actions, but each action is more expensive.
Tech Discoverers: +1 Temp Tech to Tech generating actions
Wealth Discoverers: +1 Temp Wealth to Wealth generating actions

Spoiler: Values

Born Equal
While the choices of a person and the world around them can make a person greater or lesser, everyone is born equal to each other.
Pros: Decreased social stratification,
Cons: Decreased social stratification,

Bloodied, but Unbowed (Linked to Charitable Haven) Your people have suffered great loss, but you survive and you will recover. Blows that would break others merely leave you limping and your people have suffered enough of such blows to know how to recover and that they can recover.
Pros: Better at surviving and getting by in hard times, Bonus to dealing with disasters, Better resilience and recovery after suffering losses,
Cons: Harsher and ruthless,

Caretakers of Nature
The Arthwyd are the guardians of their land and that means looking after the place that they call home. They will safeguard and preserve their lands lest they fail in their duty.
Pros: Bonus to land management projects,
Cons: Additional consequences for harming the land,

Charitable Haven
The lands of the Arthwyd are prosperous and peaceful. Free from war, slavery and other forms of suffering, many seek sanctuary in Arthwyd lands in times of turmoil and the Arthwyd are more than happy to grant it.
Pros: Increased Idea Spread, Increased Refugee Arrivals, Gain a Value from current or historical neighbour,
Cons: Reduced Social Cohesion, Many think you weak,

Communal Mandate
As per the words of the goddess, loyalty and kindness to one's people is of the highest importance and even when times are tough or when it is not personally beneficial, one should stick by their community.
Pros: Reduced Internal Discontent, Increased Resistance to Foreign Intrigue,
Cons: Increase stability loss from taking actions which harm the People,

Pioneering Ways
The world is wonderous and ripe for the taking. The Arthwyd regularly seek out new lands to make them their own as they funnel their plentiful population into the frontier to settle the wilderness.
Pros: Increased Population Growth, Common Independent Exploration, Common Independent Expansion,
Cons: More mouths to feed, Common Uncontrolled Expansion,

Sacred Defence
The People do not abandon their own for it is their sacred duty to protect each other. They stand by their neighbours and community through thick and thin and do not yield when it comes to protecting their fellows for that is their duty as commanded by the goddesses.
Pros: Increased Unity during times of crisis, Sacred Warriors, Increased loyalty from religious subordinates,
Cons: Legitimacy loss when abandoning members of the People to harm and danger, increased Legitimacy loss when the threat is from those with conflicting beliefs,

Completed Megaprojects

Spoiler: Megaprojects

The Aqueduct
A series of waterways built throughout the city of Greenbay, the aqueduct allows easy access to fresh, clean water for all those within Greenbay.
Effects: Reduces True City Upkeep for Greenbay, Bonus to Greenbay's rolls,

Arthrynite First Temple
A large stone building that resides on a hill overlooking Greenbay, the Arthrynite Temple is the first temple in the known world. With a centre piece built around stone statues of Arthryn and her Daughters, this temple is one of the holiest places in the world.
Effects: Increased Stability Gains from Venerating the Goddesses, Temp Mysticism+ every Turn.

Arthrynite Grand Temple (Tier 2)
Built in the heart of Greenbay, the Arthrynite Grand Temple is the largest building of its time. Equal in size to a village or neighbourhood, the Grand Temple is both a massive centre of worship for the Arthrynite religion, an extensive administrative centre for the Arthrynite priesthood and a nexus for the power of Arthryn and her Daughters.
Effects: Enhances the Faction Power of the Theocrats, Doubles of the Mystic Gains of religious actions, Boosts diplomacy with Arthrynites.

The Census (Bronze Age) (Tier 2)
A grand administrative project to give the Cadlon information about the population such as how many people there are, where they are and what they need to get by in life.
Effects: Temp Econ+ every Turn, Temp Wealth+ every Turn, Crisis Resistance++,

Code of Laws (Bronze Age)
A standardised set of laws that all of the Arthwyd must follow, these laws are focused on following the teachings and guidance of Arthryn and her Daughters.
Effects: Increased Loyalty from Religious Subordinates, Reduced Internal Discontent from Arthrynites.

The Evalynite Walls
The Evalynite Walls are the first stone walls in the known world and are devoted to Evalyn, the Arthrynite Goddess of Battle. They stand guard around the ancient capital of the Arthwyd and the religious centre of the Arthrynite religion.
Effects: Bonus to defending walled settlements, Bonus to defending Greenbay,

First Library
The Library of Greenbay is the greatest collection of information in the world and the first library. Containing almost countless records, this was the first great collection of information that is semi-available to all.
Effects: +1 to Innovation Rolls

Grand Sacred Forest
A grand forest planted throughout the settlement of Greenbay, this forest is the supposed to be the opposite of the Cursed Forest and is sacred to Arthryn and her Daughters.
Effects: Additional Temp Mystic+ from Venerate the Goddesses, Bonus to Study Nature,

Greenbay Palace
While not as impressive as the Forlucan Royal Palace, the Greenbay Palace does its job just as well. Acting as a centre of administration for the vast Arthwyd Empire, the palace is a boon for any Cadlon.
Effects: +1 Upper Centralisation Limit, +1 Admin Strain Free Provinces, Crisis Resistance+

Extended Sunrise Mountain Passage
A grand pathway through the Sunrise Mountains, this passage was carved out over generations with hard work and divine aid. Now it stands completing, forging a safe route overland between the Arthwyd in the south and the Merntir in the north.
Effects: Gain Temp Mysticism+ whenever a travel-based infrastructure project is completed,

Technologies

Spoiler: General Technology

Carts
Lye
Straw/Reed Rope
Sustainability
Wheel
Wicker

Agriculture
Basic Fertiliser (Compost, Manure & Nightsoil)
Basic Irrigation
Proto-Black Soil
Seasonal Crops
Soil Fertility
Two-Field Crop Rotation

Animals
Cats
Cows
Dogs
Donkeys
Fowls
Griffins
Sheep

Construction
Mortar
Surveying

Fishing & Boats
Canoes
Fishing Nets
Galleys
Longships
Outrigger Canoes
Rafts
Sails
Walnut Oil
Waterproofing

Hunting
Baits
Live Trapping
Snares
Trapping

Materials
Bone
Bronze
Charcoal
Coal
Fired Bricks
Copper
Gold
Silver
Tin
Soakstone
Stone
Wood

Medicine
Dosage
Herbalism
Proto-Human Anatomy
Painkillers
Poisons
Redstar

Metallurgy
Alloys
Bronze Smelting
Copper Smelting
Gold Smelting
Kilns
Lead Smelting
Silver Smelting
Tin Smelting

Spoiler: Social Concepts

Administration
Archiving
Dedicated Messengers
Memory Stone Record Keeping
Indexing
Planned Settlements
Stone Record Keeping
Tally Marks

Arts
Earthenware Pottery
Glazing
Metal Jewellery
Stone Carvings
Vocal Storytelling

Diplomacy
Charity
Expeditions
Gifting
Immigrants
Negotiations
Refugees
Trade

Languages
Arthwydish (Oral/Written = Logograms)
Boarfolk (Oral)
Forluc (Oral/Written = Logograms)
Lowlander (Oral)
Merntirish (Oral/Written = Logograms)

Leadership
Big Man
Cadlons
Elders
Elections
Local Leadership Delegation
Priests

Religion
Priests
Sacred Animals
Shrines
Temples
Tribute

Spoiler: Military Technology

Defences
Palisade
Stone Walls

Personal Protection
Gambeson
Hide Shields
Wicker Shields
Wood Shields

Organisation
Dedicated Scouts
Formal Hierarchy
Hunting Groups
Sacred Warriors

Theory
Ambush Tactics
Anti-Boarfolk Training
Attrition
Logistics
Shield Walls

Weapons
Bows & Arrows
Javelins
Lead Balls
Maces
Slings
Spears
Divine Magic

Spoiler: Magical Knowledge

General
Divine Blessing
Divine Magic
Soakstone

All-Seerist Divine Magic
Future Seeing (Crude Limited)
Guided Attacks (Basic/Refined)
Increased Accuracy (Expert/Refined)
Scrying (Basic)
Truth Detecting (Expert)

Arthrynite Divine Magic
Stone Manipulation (Advanced/Refined)
Stone Skin (Basic)
Trait Self-Boosting (Basic)

Wyrnite Divine Magic
Inspire (Limited)
Memory Stones (Expert/Refined)

Ymarnite Divine Magic
Disease Cure (Basic/Refined)
Human Fertility Boost (Limited)
Increased Weapon Skill (Basic/Refined)
Plant Fertility Boost (Limited)
Plant Growth (Basic)
Wound Healing (Expert/Refined)

 

[HanEmpire]

We need to unlock military formations, metal weapons, and more advanced anti-cavalry tactics.

[X] [Diplo] The Arthwyd agree to drive out the Nersondur out of the Lowlands in exchange for the return of the ancestral Forlucan heartlands. (Arthwyd Empire goes to war with the Nersondur, Diplo++, Increased Forlucan opinion, ???)

[X] [MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors
[X][MAIN] Academy
[X][MAIN] Academyx2

 

[Oshha]

and more advanced anti-cavalry tactics.

Click to shrink...

The Nersondur don't have cavalry.

 

[Random Member]

[X] [Diplo] The talks end without any agreement being made. (Outraged Forlucans, ???)
[X] [MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors
[X] [MAIN] Wage War = Caradysh

[X] [Diplo] The Arthwyd agree to drive out the Nersondur out of the Lowlands in exchange for the return of the ancestral Forlucan heartlands. (Arthwyd Empire goes to war with the Nersondur, Diplo++, Increased Forlucan opinion, ???)

Now that they've send their boar cavalry south, it's the perfect time to attack the Caradysh!

 

[UwU]

And none seriously considered the possibility of the Arthwyd Empire being unable to defend the distant Halbarnwyd. Afterall the Arthwyd Empire had yet to lose a war and who could possible successful take on the unmatched might of the Arthwyd?

Click to shrink...

Sometimes, foreshadowing is obvious...

 

[random_npc]

[] [Diplo] The Arthwyd agree to give the Caradysh free passage throughout the Arthwyd Empire in exchange for the return of the ancestral Forlucan heartlands. (Caradysh Empire gains open borders with the Arthwyd Empire, Diplo++, Increased Forlucan opinion, ???)

Click to shrink...

This is very tempting. In the long term, being able to treat them as people would solve a lot of possible issues. Also, from a political perspective, I think its in our interest that neither they nor the Nersondur holds the low lands.

 

[UwU]

This is very tempting. In the long term, being able to treat them as people would solve a lot of possible issues. Also, from a political perspective, I think its in our interest that neither they nor the Nersondur holds the low lands.

Click to shrink...

We need to unlock military formations, metal weapons, and more advanced anti-cavalry tactics.

[X] [Diplo] The Arthwyd agree to drive out the Nersondur out of the Lowlands in exchange for the return of the ancestral Forlucan heartlands. (Arthwyd Empire goes to war with the Nersondur, Diplo++, Increased Forlucan opinion, ???)

Click to shrink...

There is the point to make about whether or not a War is really in the budget or not too.

Econ: Immense Farms and Manpower (Low)
Martial: Good (Average)

Click to shrink...

 

[Manatee supreme]

[X] [Diplo] The Arthwyd agree to drive out the Nersondur out of the Lowlands in exchange for the return of the ancestral Forlucan heartlands. (Arthwyd Empire goes to war with the Nersondur, Diplo++, Increased Forlucan opinion, ???)

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE. Its time to have a good old war.

 

[HanEmpire]

The Nersondur don't have cavalry.

Click to shrink...

True, but by watching the Caradysh use cavalry we'll be able to think up counters.

 

[jamie96969]

[X] [Diplo] The Arthwyd agree to give the Caradysh free passage throughout the Arthwyd Empire in exchange for the return of the ancestral Forlucan heartlands. (Caradysh Empire gains open borders with the Arthwyd Empire, Diplo++, Increased Forlucan opinion, ???)
That went a lot better than expected.

 

[Oshha]

True, but by watching the Caradysh use cavalry we'll be able to think up counters.

Click to shrink...

The Arthwyd aren't going to be fighting alongside the Caradysh on a tactical level. You aren't going to be getting anti-cavalry stuff in this war when you aren't going to be fighting against any cavalry.

 

[HanEmpire]

The Arthwyd aren't going to be fighting alongside the Caradysh on a tactical level. You aren't going to be getting anti-cavalry stuff in this war when you aren't going to be fighting against any cavalry.

Click to shrink...

Gah, disappointing.

Well, here's hoping we get some formation fighting and/or heavy infantry innovations.

 

[random_npc]

So, looking at the three options, I think they are all more or less things that the Caradysh consider major political goals, but their all different goals.

[] [Diplo] The Arthwyd agree to drive out the Nersondur out of the Lowlands in exchange for the return of the ancestral Forlucan heartlands. (Arthwyd Empire goes to war with the Nersondur, Diplo++, Increased Forlucan opinion, ???)

Click to shrink...

This is the most immediate goal, end a serious threat to them and give them back their breadbasket. Leaving aside I'm not sure if we can afford a war, I feel this one would do the least to thaw relations, while putting them in a position to start growing in power.

[] [Diplo] The Arthwyd agree to share the secret of metalworking in exchange for the return of the ancestral Forlucan heartlands. (Caradysh Empire gains Metallurgy, Diplo++, Increased Forlucan opinion, ???)

Click to shrink...

This is quite clearly them working to errorde our tech advantage, and this would be a bad idea. The Caradysh would grow a great deal stronger with this, and our relations would not thaw much. It would be a one and done thing that makes the guys we have to work to not go to war with a lot stronger over the centuries.

[] [Diplo] The Arthwyd agree to give the Caradysh free passage throughout the Arthwyd Empire in exchange for the return of the ancestral Forlucan heartlands. (Caradysh Empire gains open borders with the Arthwyd Empire, Diplo++, Increased Forlucan opinion, ???)

Click to shrink...

This, is their oldest and possibly dearest wish, peace. They do not like that we see them as enemies no matter what, it makes us an existential threat to them. It means if they ever stumble while we're riding high, they end. This is the Caradysh making progress towards the dream of a neutral or even friendly Arthwyd. I think this is one that would benefit both of us, that we have issues seeing one of our strongest neighbors as people makes it hard to deal with them. I like this option because it is ultimately one that will be mutually beneficial, though we're going to want legitimacy and stability buffers because this one will 100% spawn negative events.

 

[Oshha]

The Forlucans would grow a great deal stronger with this,

Click to shrink...

The Forluc and the Forden already have metalworking and the former will be regaining the same amount of land in any of the deals. Any strength gained by the Forlucans is the same in any agreement that is reached.

 

[random_npc]

The Forluc and the Forden already have metalworking and the former will be regaining the same amount of land in any of the deals. Any strength gained by the Forlucans is the same in any agreement that is reached.

Click to shrink...

That was a very poorly placed copy paste error.

 

[HanEmpire]

This, is their oldest and possibly dearest wish, peace. They do not like that we see them as enemies no matter what, it makes us an existential threat to them. It means if they ever stumble while we're riding high, they end. This is the Caradysh making progress towards the dream of a neutral or even friendly Arthwyd. I think this is one that would benefit both of us, that we have issues seeing one of our strongest neighbors as people makes it hard to deal with them. I like this option because it is ultimately one that will be mutually beneficial, though we're going to want legitimacy and stability buffers because this one will 100% spawn negative events.

Click to shrink...

It's also the most risky option, since not only will it outrage the Arthwyd and potentially cause Tantrum Spirals, but it also gives the Caradysh access to our Libraries, Workshops, Temples, and more. If peaceful co-existence does not work out then this is the option that will give the Caradysh the most tools to hurt us with.

I, for one, don't want to risk any of this.

 

[Oshha]

but it also gives the Caradysh access to our Libraries, Workshops, Temples, and more.

Click to shrink...

No, it does not. Technically does, but the Caradysh and the Arthwyd are both aware of the informal limits of what will be accepted in practice when it comes to this agreement.

 

[HanEmpire]

No, it does not. Technically does, but the Caradysh and the Arthwyd are both aware of the informal limits of what will be accepted in practice when it comes to this agreement.

Click to shrink...

Hmm, that's not as bad as I thought. In that case the only physical threat that I can think of right now are infiltrators. Can the Arthwyd detect Undead in all forms, or could the Caradysh feasibly sneak Revenants into our towns and cities? Their Mastery of Magic makes me uneasy on that front.

 

[Oshha]

Can the Arthwyd detect Undead in all forms, or could the Caradysh feasibly sneak Revenants into our towns and cities?

Click to shrink...

You haven't developed that magic in this timeline and most probably are the answers respectively. That said, they don't need this agreement to do the latter if they are capable of it.

 

[random_npc]

Hmm, that's not as bad as I thought. In that case the only physical threat that I can think of right now are infiltrators. Can the Arthwyd detect Undead in all forms, or could the Caradysh feasibly sneak Revenants into our towns and cities? Their Mastery of Magic makes me uneasy on that front.

Click to shrink...

if I recall, they have living subjects. If they want to play spy games they can just use living spies.

 

[HanEmpire]

Well then. No access until we catch up on our Magic Research.

[X] [Diplo] The Arthwyd agree to drive out the Nersondur out of the Lowlands in exchange for the return of the ancestral Forlucan heartlands. (Arthwyd Empire goes to war with the Nersondur, Diplo++, Increased Forlucan opinion, ???)

[X] [MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors
[X] [MAIN] Academy
[X] [SEC] Academy
[X] [MAIN] Study Magic.

if I recall, they have living subjects. If they want to play spy games they can just use living spies.

Click to shrink...

True, but those agents wouldn't be nearly as threatening as the ageless undead.

 

[Illusion of Eris]

[X] [Diplo] The Arthwyd agree to give the Caradysh free passage throughout the Arthwyd Empire in exchange for the return of the ancestral Forlucan heartlands. (Caradysh Empire gains open borders with the Arthwyd Empire, Diplo++, Increased Forlucan opinion, ???)

We are having Econ problems, so I am most certainly not up for a costly war, cause again, war be expensive. I don't want to give up our tech advantage either, so free travel it is! Seriously, this'll both lighten the racism and has more or less no economic cost. Gimme!


[X] [SEC] Empower Cadlon
[X] [SEC] Expand Econ.
[X] [SEC] Plant Cash Crops.
[X] [MAIN] Trade Expedition = (Caradysh)
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses