Okay, the tie is broken. The winning votes are:
They try to stop the Forluc. (-1 Diplo, Furious Forlucans, -1 Legitimacy, -1 Stability, ???)
[MAIN] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
[MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses
[SEC] Support Subordinate = (Forluc)
[SEC] Support Subordinate = (Forden)
 
Establishing that our vassals can't declare war is a very important set of precedent and one that'll spare us from so many headaches and crises in the future. We did very well.
 
Establishing that our vassals can't declare war is a very important set of precedent and one that'll spare us from so many headaches and crises in the future. We did very well.
Yeah, just might have to deal with them rebelling here. Which will be a pain, but at least won't set the precedent they can just declare war on outsiders whenever they want.
 
Yeah, just might have to deal with them rebelling here. Which will be a pain, but at least won't set the precedent they can just declare war on outsiders whenever they want.
We're spending two actions placating them and another action getting them exactly what they want, so I think rebellion is very unlikely.
 
We're spending two actions placating them and another action getting them exactly what they want, so I think rebellion is very unlikely.
attempting to get them what we want. I find it rather unlikely it'll actually work. Its 10k square km if I recall correctly from QM posts. Thats a TON of land. I just don't see the Caradysh trading that much away for anything we have. We might be able to get some of it, but that's just going to make the Forluc think they should get the rest.
 
attempting to get them what we want. I find it rather unlikely it'll actually work. Its 10k square km if I recall correctly from QM posts. Thats a TON of land. I just don't see the Caradysh trading that much away for anything we have. We might be able to get some of it, but that's just going to make the Forluc think they should get the rest.
A ton of land that's currently not doing much at all but putting them at risk of getting invaded by the Arthwyd Empire while they're already having trouble with the Nersondur. Between that and the possibility that they're not as utterly fixated on having land as some other civilisations are, I reckon it's legitimately possible that they'll return the entirety of the Forluc's heartlands. They might also consider improved relations with the Arthwyd to be its own reward.
 
A ton of land that's currently not doing much at all but putting them at risk of getting invaded by the Arthwyd Empire while they're already having trouble with the Nersondur. Between that and the possibility that they're not as utterly fixated on having land as some other civilisations are, I reckon it's legitimately possible that they'll return the entirety of the Forluc's heartlands. They might also consider improved relations with the Arthwyd to be its own reward.
Have they not got that entire section of land settled? I thought they did, and that was how land got claimed in the time period we were in.
 
Also, there very easily could just offer to give us the territory in exchange for starting trade for corpses...
Now, questionable how our people would react to that, but that is a very real possibility they might consider.
 
Also, there very easily could just offer to give us the territory in exchange for starting trade for corpses...
Now, questionable how our people would react to that, but that is a very real possibility they might consider.
That's true they might... I find it incredibly likely that our people will not accept that possibility. Especially as our Goddess of Death does not like the Undead at all, admittedly that's especially Urth... who isn't around so that might change in time?
 
Ideally we wouldn't be contacting the Caradysh with a large demand right of the bat and would be very gradual in opening contact in order to ease our people into the idea of peaceful co-existence(and give Wyrn more time to slowly retcon established Canon) but it is what it is.

Let's just hope the stabhits will be minimal and that the faction quests don't shift into a call for holy war again.
 
Ideally we wouldn't be contacting the Caradysh with a large demand right of the bat and would be very gradual in opening contact in order to ease our people into the idea of peaceful co-existence(and give Wyrn more time to slowly retcon established Canon) but it is what it is.

Let's just hope the stabhits will be minimal and that the faction quests don't shift into a call for holy war again.
I'm just hopeful that the Caradysh are actually decent folk now. Without Urth there its possible. But I don't like not knowing what happened to Urth. Little worried he's gone off to try and become the God of the Dead or some such to take control of all the Undead as a God and go Nagash on everyone.
 
If we do the Academy and get the chance to unlock the Great Library, I think we should pass it up. I suspect that filling half the Library slots would unlock the Great Library, so I think we should spend our megaproject bonus differently unless we immediately need another source of Prestige.
 
We can probably hit another Golden Age before we reach 50% Library coverage anyway(especially with the current faction focus on roads, road rewards and aqueducts), which should enable us to buy new Megaproject unlocks if we want.

As for Academies/Sewers... if we add even more missing infrastructure per settlement, we might be hitting a point where the total timetable on our backlog gets shortened if we first work towards the second Passive policy on Rockbay(after Small Stone Walls have been integrated of course) and put that one on infrastructure.
Add in the two Passives we get once Western Rock River hits 6/15 and the occasional faction quest reward? We might even be able to average one integration per Arthrynite lifetime.
 
Add in the two Passives we get once Western Rock River hits 6/15 and the occasional faction quest reward?
The two new passives have to go on Agriculture. We're already having enough trouble managing temp econ that every other turn we're doing Sec Expand Econ, and that's before the new incoming Secondary action. We need the steady, stable supply of income to give us the flexibility and security we need.
 
The two new passives have to go on Agriculture. We're already having enough trouble managing temp econ that every other turn we're doing Sec Expand Econ, and that's before the new incoming Secondary action. We need the steady, stable supply of income to give us the flexibility and security we need.
Agriculture passive gives 0.5 SEC Expand Econ worth of Temp Econ per turn and no innovation roll.

Spending a SEC Expand Econ every other turn is objectively better.
 
Agriculture passive gives 0.5 SEC Expand Econ worth of Temp Econ per turn and no innovation roll.

Spending a SEC Expand Econ every other turn is objectively better.
It's really not. It's only better when looking at it purely from a paradigm of "this passive is worth this much action", which is less beneficial than it seems at first glance. When looking at it from a paradigm of how useful and practical it is in actual gameplay, the steady temp econ drip of double Agriculture is better. Not having to constantly worry about temp econ...isn't a gamechanger, but it is close to one.

It means we can spend heavily on temp econ and still be able to adequately deal with crises the next turn. It means having more resources on hand to spend heavily in the first place, on a far broader selection of things than infrastructure. It means if there's a number of things demanding our attention, we can spend all our actions dealing with them instead of letting one fall by the wayside because we need to spend an action doing Sec Expand Econ.

We've already been suffering the issues that come with insufficient income. The problems are only going to get worse once we get the next Secondary, not better. The flexibility and resilience that two Agriculture passive policies would give us are highly important and are what truly matter.

EDIT: Optimisation models in general tend to shorten a civilisation's lifespan rather than lengthen them, especially the more powerful the civilisation is. They commonly make the civilisation more fragile by retarding its ability to respond to crises and new developments, which often results in some form of collapse or death spiral. The Arthwyd are absolutely powerful enough that optimisation would hinder more than it'd help. The Arthwyd would benefit most from stability, resilience, and flexibility, not yet more power.
 
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It's really not. It's only better when looking at it purely from a paradigm of "this passive is worth this much action", which is less beneficial than it seems at first glance. When looking at it from a paradigm of how useful and practical it is in actual gameplay, the steady temp econ drip of double Agriculture is better. Not having to constantly worry about temp econ...isn't a gamechanger, but it is close to one.

It means we can spend heavily on temp econ and still be able to adequately deal with crises the next turn. It means having more resources on hand to spend heavily in the first place, on a far broader selection of things than infrastructure. It means if there's a number of things demanding our attention, we can spend all our actions dealing with them instead of letting one fall by the wayside because we need to spend an action doing Sec Expand Econ.

We've already been suffering the issues that come with insufficient income. The problems are only going to get worse once we get the next Secondary, not better. The flexibility and resilience that two Agriculture passive policies would give us are highly important and are what truly matter.

EDIT: Optimisation models in general tend to shorten a civilisation's lifespan rather than lengthen them, especially the more powerful the civilisation is. They commonly make the civilisation more fragile by retarding its ability to respond to crises and new developments, which often results in some form of collapse or death spiral. The Arthwyd are absolutely powerful enough that optimisation would hinder more than it'd help. The Arthwyd would benefit most from stability, resilience, and flexibility, not yet more power.
I'd much rather have the incentive to continue to do SEC econ actions, simply because it'd mean we keep rolling for innovations regarding it. Meanwhile if we don't do them at all, we are liable to get stagnant at it. Stagnation is death, and much to be avoided. Stability is only particularly helpful if no one else is growing.

Also, I'm rather a fan of putting those passive policies on things like studying, or infrastructure.
 
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I'd much rather have the incentive to continue to do SEC econ actions, simply because it'd mean we keep rolling for innovations regarding it.
Again, at our level of power, the Arthwyd benefits way more from stability and flexibility than it does from further accelerating its power growth, and that's no less true just because innovation rolls are involved. The Arthwyd Empire is great on food. No one has starved for centuries, possibly millennia, even through a Little Ice Age plus a bit of full on Ice Age. Extra innovation there is near the bottom of what the Arthwyd needs. Fixing its bigotry, managing its vassals, interacting with its neighbours, juggling its faction demands, and generally dealing with new crises and developments are far more important things we need to deal with.

Inflicting more crises on ourselves that we can't manage to grow more food we already have plenty of is very unwise.

Besides, we're not just more advanced than other civilisations, our tech growth is way faster. We have triple the innovation rolls that other civs have thanks to the Study passive and Ancient Centre of Civilisation, and those innovation rolls are further boosted by things like the Library and Chosen of Arthryn. We are very far away from stagnant or even getting caught up to.
 
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It's really not. It's only better when looking at it purely from a paradigm of "this passive is worth this much action", which is less beneficial than it seems at first glance. When looking at it from a paradigm of how useful and practical it is in actual gameplay, the steady temp econ drip of double Agriculture is better. Not having to constantly worry about temp econ...isn't a gamechanger, but it is close to one.

It means we can spend heavily on temp econ and still be able to adequately deal with crises the next turn. It means having more resources on hand to spend heavily in the first place, on a far broader selection of things than infrastructure. It means if there's a number of things demanding our attention, we can spend all our actions dealing with them instead of letting one fall by the wayside because we need to spend an action doing Sec Expand Econ.

We've already been suffering the issues that come with insufficient income. The problems are only going to get worse once we get the next Secondary, not better. The flexibility and resilience that two Agriculture passive policies would give us are highly important and are what truly matter.

EDIT: Optimisation models in general tend to shorten a civilisation's lifespan rather than lengthen them, especially the more powerful the civilisation is. They commonly make the civilisation more fragile by retarding its ability to respond to crises and new developments, which often results in some form of collapse or death spiral. The Arthwyd are absolutely powerful enough that optimisation would hinder more than it'd help. The Arthwyd would benefit most from stability, resilience, and flexibility, not yet more power.
There's another way to not have to constantly worry about whether or not we'll have enough temp econ to deal with crises/splurge on large projects.
Save some Econ for the bank in advance.

One way to do this is by committing to doing SEC Farming whenever we're not in a crisis(for which the extra SEC action is going to help a lot). This gives us flexibility and resilience for when we actually need it and fully exploits the Bronze-Blooded and Agricultural Innovators legacies that make farming actions so much better than the passive.

The only reason Econ is a problem is because we're hovering at ~8 temp when we have a capacity of 60-ish. We have a small but steady drip via our Census and our temp econ does still have some degree of regeneration still, even if the system change has slowed things down a bit.
The issue is voter will, not ability.

The problem can be offset further if we spend more of our normal turn actions to study or do diplomatic/trade expeditions, as those don't cost temp econ. Compared to leaving research and foreign affairs to our passives? This has the advantage of letting us pick the categories* we study and the factions we interact with.
Support the Grythwyd(avoid Gerontocrat quest failure) and Empower the Cadlon(Monarchist quest reward) would've also been effectively net-neutral or net-positive in terms of temp Econ this turn(and failing the Gerontocrat quest just bumped our max Econ down a point).
And switching Support Subordinate(Forluc) to Diplomatic Outreach(Forluc) would've given us the chance for a relationship increase without costing us temp Econ if we really want to save the manpower.

*admittedly, Passive Study does have an advantage in allowing us to roll the Administration category, but we can just buy administrative innovations during a golden age.
 
Save some Econ for the bank in advance.

One way to do this is by committing to doing SEC Farming whenever we're not in a crisis
Your grand solution to the problem of "We're in a position where we have to do Sec Expand Econ every other turn, and that has and will continue to cause us problems" is "Well what if we do Sec Expand Econ every other turn?" I'm not impressed by your solution.
 
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Your grand solution to the problem of "We're in a position where we have to do Sec Expand Econ every other turn, and that has and will continue to cause us problems" is "Well what if we do Sec Expand Econ every other turn?" I'm not impressed by your solution.
No.

My solution to "need to do it every other turn" is "do it every turn so we can take a break when we need to."

Also all the other ways to save temp econ that I mentioned.
 
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