Pardon me but these "Forsaken"...aren't they from a video game? I fail to see how this person was being hateful when the group used as an example does not exist.

Can anyone explain more about them as this makes no sense to me.
Sure. Being Racist towards a fictional group of people, or hateful towards them, is against Rule #2
Specifically:
Rule 2: Don't Be Hateful

We want to build a welcoming community. You can't post anything that is hateful or advocates harassment or violence, even against fictional or historical people. Be mindful in everything that you post.
  • Be understanding of other viewpoints and perspectives.
  • Be considerate of how your opinions and statements can be interpreted by others.
  • Don't use slurs.
  • Don't talk about how great it would be if someone was raped, tortured, maimed, etc.
The Fine Print
"Don't be hateful" is about how what you say speaks to groups of people. For example, while slurs might offend a specific individual, they also generally offend communities. You are mindful not because of specific individuals, but because of all those who might be affected by what you say.

We expect, for example, that you will gender everyone appropriately. We expect that you will not refer to anyone by what might reasonably be considered a slur: don't use "retard", "japs", or "traps", for example.

We also expect that you will treat others with a modicum of civility and dignity. In particular, you must be willing to treat them as people. Revenge fantasies (Internet Tough Guy-ing) - whether against fictional groups, like the Na'vi, or against real groups, like the Taliban - are unacceptable. While there is more leeway when it comes to historical or fictional groups, a community that is willing to devalue outsiders is not the welcoming one we are trying to build.
Note the provision for fictional groups as well. The example for the "Forsaken" was used simply because they're an easy to hate group. They're also, in WoW, not entirely evil, just had a rather terrible leader. Such is life though. Or unlife I suppose.

Note: Well, I have been Ninja'd
 
Ugh, I go play a game for an hour and a half and I come back to a staff post.

I don't care if it is technically racism or not. The point is that you can prejudiced and bigotry towards the Caradysh and other types of sapient undead because being sapient means that you are a person. While the wights are mindless, the revenants are fully sapient and the different between them and their living selves is that they are now undead hence by the Caradysh only turn willing volunteers into revenants. If you asked a member of the Arthwyd or a Forlucan or a lowlander if a Caraydsh revenant is a person or not, they would all tell you that a Caradysh revenant is clearly a person and you are crazy to think otherwise.

They are people and therefore it is possible to be bigoted towards them. The Arthwyd certainly are as I have stated before, but that doesn't mean the player have to be and given that you all live in modern society and post in SV, I expect you not to be bigots.

Furthermore, assuming that stuff has to work a certain way because it works that way in a different setting is a surefire way to have something backfire on you and for your plans to go wrong.

Pardon me but these "Forsaken"...aren't they from a video game? I fail to see how this person was being hateful when the group used as an example does not exist.

Can anyone explain more about them as this makes no sense to me.
The Caradysh revenants are undead, but also people so you can be bigoted towards them. The Forsaken are just an another example of undead people who are victims of bigotry.

Furthermore, you can be bigoted towards fictional people and doing so is against SV's rules, specifically Rule 2.
Rule 2 said:
We also expect that you will treat others with a modicum of civility and dignity. In particular, you must be willing to treat them as people. Revenge fantasies (Internet Tough Guy-ing) - whether against fictional groups, like the Na'vi, or against real groups, like the Taliban - are unacceptable. While there is more leeway when it comes to historical or fictional groups, a community that is willing to devalue outsiders is not the welcoming one we are trying to build.
 
I must confess that this does not make sense, as if they are not real...let alone how this person was being bigoted for saying that factually we do not know that they are not malicious any more than we know they are and as such based on what we know...

This all seems very biased at best.
 
I must confess that this does not make sense, as if they are not real...let alone how this person was being bigoted for saying that factually we do not know that they are not malicious any more than we know they are and as such based on what we know...

This all seems very biased at best.
It's not about the target. It's about the conduct of the person posting.
 
I see, hmmm. Dont go on these much but as far as I can see there wasnt any swearing, personal attacks or calls for hatred or genocide (if such a term can be applied to a fictional group) so while i agree they were vocal they seemed to be willing to consider other points of view?
 
This is a classic example of having to choose between the seductive, evil, "mechanically optimal" choice and the costly but good and ultimately healthiest choice.

Everything we've learned since we've established peace with the Caradysh is that they are decent, very stable neighbours to have. They're pretty much as good as it can get when it comes to neighbouring civs. We want them to survive, because everything that can replace them would be worse.


[X] [MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses
[X][SEC] Support Subordinate = (Forluc)
[X] They try to stop the Forluc. (-1 Diplo, Furious Forlucans, -1 Legitimacy, -1 Stability, ???)


anders is right, we 1000% want a buffer between us and the Nersondurans. They are going to press contently against anyone they can reach, and if they eat the lowlands we are going to be under unceasing assult from them. Better we have a few nations between them and us.
 
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I must confess that this does not make sense, as if they are not real...let alone how this person was being bigoted for saying that factually we do not know that they are not malicious any more than we know they are and as such based on what we know...

This all seems very biased at best.

SV disallows hateful speech regardless of who it is directed against. I recommend making a thread here: https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/forums/ask-a-private-question.46/ or PMing the mod in question because continuing this line of discussion risks running afoul of Rule 5.
 
The vote is still open.
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest Original | Page 145 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 3602-3756]
##### NetTally 2.2.0

[X] They try to stop the Forluc. (-1 Diplo, Furious Forlucans, -1 Legitimacy, -1 Stability, ???)
No. of Votes: 19

[X] They support the Forluc. (War with the Caradysh, Increased Forlucan opinion, +1 Stability, ???)
No. of Votes: 13

[X] They decide to stay out of it. (???)
No. of Votes: 1



——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: MAIN

[X][MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors
No. of Votes: 13

[X][MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses
No. of Votes: 12

[X][MAIN] Expand Econ.
No. of Votes: 11

[X][MAIN] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
No. of Votes: 8

[X][MAIN] Expand Econ. x2
No. of Votes: 2

[X][MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors x2
No. of Votes: 2

[X][MAIN] Wage War = Caradysh
No. of Votes: 2



——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: SEC

[X][SEC] Support Subordinate = (Forden)
No. of Votes: 14

[X][SEC] Support Subordinate = (Forluc)
No. of Votes: 14

[X][SEC] Build Boats
No. of Votes: 12

[X][SEC] Wage War = Caradysh
No. of Votes: 8

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
No. of Votes: 5

[X][SEC] Explore Lands = Cursed Forest
No. of Votes: 2


Total No. of Voters: 32
 
That is fair but i think i shall leave instead. This does not seem to be a 'quest' in good faith based on what i am seeing here. Farewell.
 
Staff Notice - Rule 5: Don't Make it Harder For Us to Do Our Jobs
[STOP=Have you never heard of the Forsaken?]

Yes, in fact, you can be racist against undead people. In fact, let's have a look at the Forsaken from WoW, shall we? Very much thinking people, very much discriminated against. Sound familiar? It should. Because that's exactly what you're doing here with this particular group of undead.

Here on SV, we do not tolerate racism of any shape way, or form, and this post is clearly racist and marginalizes a group of thinking people.

As such, your ability to post in this thread has been removed for 72 hours, and you have been issued 25 points. Don't break Rule #2.
[/STOP]
This is probably going to get me hit in the face with the Ban Hammer but whatever. Going to point out that this is a horrible example.

The Foresaken were once living people who were forced against their own will to become undead after dying as a form of slavery by the Lich King and the Scourge. The Foreaken hate their undead nature more than anyone and one of their main goals is to somehow reverse their condition so if being hateful toward the undead is wrong and racist than the Foreaken are the most racist of all ironically.

The Caradysh, as far as I've seen, do not make others into undead, rather they create undead from corpses. The souls in their sapient undead are not the souls of the bodies previous inhabitants but something else.

In this comparison it is far more accurate in my opinion to equate the Caradysh with the Scourge than the Foresaken with Urth being the Lich King.
 
That is fair but i think i shall leave instead. This does not seem to be a 'quest' in good faith based on what i am seeing here. Farewell.
This isn't a quest thing, it is a forum-wide thing. The rules apply to everyone on the forum and they do so everywhere on the forum. Even if I didn't consider such content to be acceptable, it would be out of my hands because the people who run the site consider such content to be unacceptable.
 
So, question partially to change topics

For the peaceniks currently, what would you consider a good time to attack the Caradysh? Or is it a thing of only having defensive wars you guys would want?

Edit: I mean, since it isn't a good time now, as we have all agreed mostly on, what would we want to see to prompt us to attack
 
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For the peaceniks currently, what would you consider a good time to attack the Caradysh? Or is it a thing of only having defensive wars you guys would want?

It seems to be the latter in my opinion. There are three camps. Those who want to attack the Caradysh, those who want to attack the Caradysh when they are weak and those who want peace and diplomatic relations with the Caradysh.
 
So, question partially to change topics

For the peaceniks currently, what would you consider a good time to attack the Caradysh? Or is it a thing of only having defensive wars you guys would want?

Edit: I mean, since it isn't a good time now, as we have all agreed mostly on, what would we want to see to prompt us to attack
...never? The Caradysh have been pretty good neighbors for the past several hundred years, and unlike the Nesondour don't seem inclined to randomly raid and invade people all the time. I'd at least give them a chance to see if they can be peaceful and stay peaceful with positive relations rather than trying to forever war them.
 
So, question partially to change topics

For the peaceniks currently, what would you consider a good time to attack the Caradysh? Or is it a thing of only having defensive wars you guys would want?

Edit: I mean, since it isn't a good time now, as we have all agreed mostly on, what would we want to see to prompt us to attack
In my particular case. No idea, as it would depend on context. In this particular case, well, I have already said why I wanted to avoid war in this case because of the raiders.
 
So, question partially to change topics

For the peaceniks currently, what would you consider a good time to attack the Caradysh? Or is it a thing of only having defensive wars you guys would want?

Edit: I mean, since it isn't a good time now, as we have all agreed mostly on, what would we want to see to prompt us to attack
I'm voting to stop the Forluc for a few reasons.
1. I don't think having our Vassals start wars is a good thing.
2. I don't know enough about the Caradysh without Urth being in charge to make a good determination as to whether they are an existential threat or not.
3. I don't know enough about their military might to know if we even CAN win a fight.
4. Its helpful to have someone else fighting the new guys so they don't attack us, or us as much.
5. I want the option of allying with the Caradysh for destroying the new guys if it becomes necessary, and since the new guys are apparently closer in power to us than the Caradysh, well a little buffer never hurts.

As to what would make me attack them...
1. Verification that Urth isn't actually gone.
2. Verification as to their intent, and that intent being an existential threat.
3. An attack from them
4. Verification that necromancy damages the souls of those involved. Which seems unlikely as a revenant who doesn't like the Caradysh continues to dislike the Caradysh. So it seems to not have any mental effects, though the potential loss of an afterlife is a possibility, no Arthrynite would consider it likely given Arthryn should be able to fix any such issues. And so far... Arthryn's been pretty darned badass when necessary.
 
We don't know a damn thing about how undeath works. You should not be claiming that we do.

The Arthwyd do know some of the basic effects such as a wights are mindless and revenant are sapient. In this case, they know that the revenants (or at least the younger generations) retain their personalities from in life and they know from the ancient legends that Voryn retain his personality even after the Forester shamans turned him into a revenant against his will.
 
The Caradysh, as far as I've seen, do not make others into undead, rather they create undead from corpses. The souls in their sapient undead are not the souls of the bodies previous inhabitants but something else.
We don't know a damn thing about how undeath works. You should not be claiming that we do.
In fact, I have no clue where that idea even came from..
It was explicitly stated that if someone uncooperative became a revenant, said person would still be uncooperative...
The sapient ones consent to it because there is no point turning an unwilling victim into a revenant because they are still going to be unwilling afterwards.
The Arthwyd do know some of the basic effects such as a wights are mindless and revenant are sapient. In this case, they know that the revenants (or at least the younger generations) retain their personalities from in life and they know from the ancient legends that Voryn retain his personality even after the Forester shamans turned him into a revenant against his will.
hmm... Interesting info there.
 
[X] They support the Forluc. (War with the Caradysh, Increased Forlucan opinion, +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors
[X] [MAIN] Expand Econ.
[X] [SEC] Wage War = Caradysh

I like the idea of integrating the Forluc, and denying their request seems like it would at best hurt that project significantly, and at worst lead to open rebellion, in which case we end up fighting anyways.
 
For everyone voting to stop the Forluc, you will also want to vote for [MAIN] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh) or [SEC] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh) if you want to try and diplomatically arrange the peaceful return of the Forlucan lands.
 
[X][MAIN] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
[X][SEC] Support Subordinate = (Forluc)
[X] They try to stop the Forluc. (-1 Diplo, Furious Forlucans, -1 Legitimacy, -1 Stability, ???)

Recasting my vote, and adding some action votes to it.
 
I feel its worth once again saying we have zero evidence that the Caradysh are in any meaningful way inherently malicious. Yes, their founder was an asshole, and yes, their necromancy creates some peverse incentives, but taking it for granted that they are monsters that must be destroyed is a mistake.
 
[X][MAIN] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
[X][SEC] Support Subordinate = (Forluc)
[X] They try to stop the Forluc. (-1 Diplo, Furious Forlucans, -1 Legitimacy, -1 Stability, ???)
 
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