Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Ah, so the moment the Forluc attack, they get swamped by a horde of zombie boars.
Sasuga, Urth-sama!
Sasuga, Urth-sama!
Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest
- Thread starter Oshha
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Australia
The Forluc will be the raiders. They'll attack other civilisations to raid them or try to conquer them and will inevitably drag us into their dumbass wars. If we stop them from going to war with the Caradysh, we affirm that we have the right to stop them picking fights with other people, we can placate them with Support Subordinate to stop them getting mad at us in the short term, and we can send a Diplomatic Outreach to the Caradysh to try to get the Forluc's land back peacefully. It's a good, solid plan that benefits everyone and enhances stability while curbing the power of the Nersondur. Way better than suffering the various and continuous shit we'd have to suffer if we attack the Caradysh.
Also, if, as has certainly been the case with other players, part of your opinion on the Caradysh is based on what the Arthwyd think of them, which the GM has described as outright prejudiced, you really ought to take some time to rethink your views on the Caradysh.
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Rule 2: Don’t Be Hateful
Eh, tbh the revelation about the Boar cav does make a fair case that the war isn't something to rush. Better to advice the Forluc to wait until those have been deployed before trying to retake their lands.
Still think it's hilarious that you can be 'racist' against the undead aka the unnaturally resurrected bodies of people.
Still think it's hilarious that you can be 'racist' against the undead aka the unnaturally resurrected bodies of people.
- Location
- Australia
[X] They try to stop the Forluc. (-1 Diplo, Furious Forlucans, -1 Legitimacy, -1 Stability, ???)
[X] [MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Build Boats
[X] [SEC] Support Subordinate = (Forluc)
[X] [SEC] Support Subordinate = (Forden)
[X] [SEC] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
[X] [MAIN] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
We could do Sec Build Boats+Sec Diplomatic Outreach or Main Diplomatic Outreach. Either way it gets back the Forluc's land peacefully, stops the Forluc from picking fights in the future, it prevents the Nersondur from gaining more power, and it lets us avoid having to fight a costly war against tens of thousands of heavy cavalry.
[X] [MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Build Boats
[X] [SEC] Support Subordinate = (Forluc)
[X] [SEC] Support Subordinate = (Forden)
[X] [SEC] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
[X] [MAIN] Diplomatic Outreach = (Caradysh)
We could do Sec Build Boats+Sec Diplomatic Outreach or Main Diplomatic Outreach. Either way it gets back the Forluc's land peacefully, stops the Forluc from picking fights in the future, it prevents the Nersondur from gaining more power, and it lets us avoid having to fight a costly war against tens of thousands of heavy cavalry.
Prejudice is still prejudice even if it's against a fantasy people.
Well, that is kind of the definition of 'racist'.
In fact the defenition means, well.Google defenition said:
The whole elf vs dwarf stuff common in fiction can easily fit with it, also meaning especially Gimli from lord of the rings is somewhat racist near the beginning as well
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
A good number of the undead are as sapient as any living person so yes, you can be prejudiced against them because they are still people.
Gonna have to disagree there, because can they breed naturally? Do they have specific or general genetic traces that they pass on in the process of this? Do they have natural and consistent lifespans that can be altered by breeding or health?
No. They are a mind in a dead body so while they mind be a sapient in spite of their situation, doesn't make them a race.
They are outright, bodies that have died and left the mortal coil that have either had their souls replanted in them or another's by explicitly not natural means. That is how necromancy works.
They weren't resurrected or any other way to live and continue a race by anything other than using the dead bodies of others to make more and even then, they are the exception to the rule as *a good number* doesn't mean all
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Nicholas Brooks
Redeemer and Destroyer
- Location
- United States
Can't all races be undead though? The closest comparison is like being prejudiced against people who hold a given idea since unlike race, anyone can become that way.
Admittedly yes. This might be better described in that manner...
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
This all seems to be utterly pointless semantics.
1) Do the caradysh share certain qualities : yesWikipedia said:
2) Do we see them as distinct : yes
3) Are they human? : I'd argue they are, but since this is fantasy, that doesn't matter. Sentient is good enough.
Therefore, they qualify for fantasy racism.
Edit : Race is (neither in fantasy or real life) based on genetics or biological links. Race is socially constructed. The presumed genetic differences upon which 20th century scientific racism was built turned out not to exist in an sufficient quanitity to matter.
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Except that it's somehow racist to feel differently than kumbaya hugs and peace to undead, which is being used to shame anyone who disagrees, so no. I don't feel it is. Trying to accuse people of being racist for seeing an explicitly unnatural state of being as something other than exactly what it is when the vast majority of people who are raised *by others* either undead or living, don't and aren't able to be sapient, is something I don't agree with and find is a hilarious double standard and misuse of the word
Instead of arguing over semantics and saying because one side is wrong the other side is right, can we actually talk about the core issue, which is the prejudice against the Caradysh?
Let's put this another way, is inherently distrusting and disliking the White Walkers wrong? Because as far as I'm concerned the Caradysh are little different to the White Walkers beyond the fact that they can plan beyond waiting a really long time and can put on a pretty face when they need to. Both are sapient Undead that are capable of creating and controlling lesser mindless undead who thrive off the death of the living.
The only thing holding them back from going full bore into the whole necromantic apocolypse is the fact that they're aware that the Arthwyd are stronger than them. If the Arthwyd are for some reason no longer an obstacle? You can guess what'll happen rather easily.
Except that to claim that is an issue requires that the accusation that it's possible to be prejuiced against the undead which I flatly don't agree with. Even that statement is an attempt to push the validity of the concept and semantics being arguedby pretending to bypass the very thing it claims to not want to argue over.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
The GM has been explicit about the fact that the characterization of the Caradysh as unnatural abominations is just an Arthwyd prejudice. You make claims when the opposite is what has actually been stated as fact.
Oh, and if you want to consider unnatural, our entire population has a magical blessing which defies standard biology. The Arthwyd are thus just as unnatural as the Caradysh.
So, if you are alright with the Arthwyd but consider the Caradysh abominations, then you are obviously prejudiced. Who says what is natural, anyway? Magic exists and is part of nature in this universe. Necromancy is therefore natural.
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And before anyone says, "oh but the Caradysh have changed! Look at how they saved the lowlands Civs! And they've been so peaceful!" They saved them so they can use them as corpse factories and they've been peaceful because they know damn well that if they weren't we would have come down on them hard like we always have.
And as for Diplo attempts with us? No shit they'd try Diplomacy, trying to fight us straight up obviously wasn't working so they tried a new strategy.
And as for Diplo attempts with us? No shit they'd try Diplomacy, trying to fight us straight up obviously wasn't working so they tried a new strategy.
We don't know even a tiny sliver of the knowledge that even makes necromancy possible, and if I remember correctly, there was a point where the leaders were still living much like others, though eventually discovered what seems to be something like Lichafication?
Yeah, we know NOTHING about it, and are proud of that!!!
- Location
- Australia
Their first interaction with us since the start of the quest was diplomacy. They only switched to war after we attacked them in response to their diplomatic attempts. They only attacked when they thought long term peace with us was non-viable, and now that they once more think we can remain at peace, they've been peaceful.
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I mean, that doesn't make the process of necromancy any more natural or any less of a case of incorrectly ascribing a concept. This is something that the QM is flat out pushing that is not correct.
And it's not even the case like with AI, where you have yes non biological means of reproduction, but you have new life aka sapience being granted and the ability to grow and create their own...how many zombies or skeletons do you know that can do that? and since someone brought up liches
That's basically saying an engram is a person, except that an Engram is explicitly a personality overlay that has a static existance, and Lichdom...basically the same.
And magical blessing that enhance a living person and allow them to essentially function at a higher level are rather different than taking a rotting corpse and granting it mobility/the ability to think.
The blessed Arthwyd were able to exist without them, able to breed and adapt and grow without them, and don't live solely dependent on those blessing.
If the QM want to firmly establish that this isn't just redressed necromancy for the sake of attempted soapboxing, by all means, but until they're actually established as a race that can grow and live without using an explicitly unnatural and reliable way...then no, it's not racist to say that the Undead are not natural. And attempting to force people who feel that way just because you say so doesn't make you right.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
The QM sets quest canon. Just because you disagree with it doesn't make it incorrect.
All it means that you are wrong and the QM is right.
Your arguments rely entirely on your own personal definitions that you made up about what is natural and what is not.
Edit : This, incidentally illustrates how "natural" is just another word for "accepted by society", or in other words "not subjected to prejudice.
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So, more important question, would attacking the Carandysh right now be good for us
I'd say, literally only because they have cavalry in the backline, no, I'd let them be our shield for a while more, at least let them burn through their boarfolk corpses against those other guys before we strike
I do want to strike though at some point, they are our closest rival state that our people don't particularly like, so we should do it at some point, the thing that should be focused on is if it's the right time to do it, not that we shouldn't at all
Don't know exactly what to vote though with that in mind, as I don't know exactly what we need right now
I'd say, literally only because they have cavalry in the backline, no, I'd let them be our shield for a while more, at least let them burn through their boarfolk corpses against those other guys before we strike
I do want to strike though at some point, they are our closest rival state that our people don't particularly like, so we should do it at some point, the thing that should be focused on is if it's the right time to do it, not that we shouldn't at all
Don't know exactly what to vote though with that in mind, as I don't know exactly what we need right now
...
We know nothing and we are assuming they match the popular interpetations of necromancy...
I don't think we would be quite so supportive if they stumbled onto stuff like cars, and decried them as unnatural abominations. After all, we would dismiss what our people see as rightfully being because they don't understand it, as long as the author doesn't decide to talk about it in a way that hides it's true nature.
After all, we don't understand even the first thing about this 'necromancy' besides the fact dead bodies are involved for the dumb variants.
...
We know nothing and we are assuming they match the popular interpetations of necromancy...
I don't think we would be quite so supportive if they stumbled onto stuff like cars, and decried them as unnatural abominations. After all, we would dismiss what our people see as rightfully being because they don't understand it, as long as the author doesn't decide to talk about it in a way that hides it's true nature.
After all, we don't understand even the first thing about this 'necromancy' besides the fact dead bodies are involved for the dumb variants.
They raise the dead, they explicitly raise corpses that have left the mortal coil by means of magic that is called necromancy...so unless the QM is actually going to reveal what makes this batch a special snowflake and different...no, don't get to play this game.
"I'm right because I say so, so stop arguing." got it.
Don't actually have to be right, just get to silence people who disagree. Gotta love double standards.
Now this! This is what i'm talking about, and why I'm okay with not going to war for now, cause yeah, the 20,000 boar cav that they've been holding back is a big threat and we should let them wear down a bit more regardless of if we go to war or not.
This is actually looking at the issue from the ground and applying concerns that have merit and effect for the setting, not literally twisting modern values into pretzels shapes to justify moralistic back patting.
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I guess we're just going to ignore that this quest started in the middle of the last one? I suppose what happened prior to this quests beginning is irrelevant.
Whatever, I'm done arguing this bullshit regardless. If you guys can't wrap your heads around how something that at base requires the death of the living to empower itself and propagate is inherently evil than I won't bother. I just came back cause it looked like we would actually do something about the Caradysh but I guess not.