@Oshha -- would it be possible to push a values mutation onto the Cernn if we accept a values mutation in Arthwyd as a whole?

They're being accepted as civilized, but have too much of a martial focus. I was wondering if we could have something like the ancient greek value of Arete -- where one's worthiness was based on general "excellence", which included physical/athletic prowess as well as academic and spiritual. This is why the Olympic Games came about, for example.

It would de-escalate the Cernn as militarists while probably resulting in local non-sacred self-organized militias sprouting up in areas where they were training to compete in the Games. This would also be something that the outrage about the Caradysh could be channeled into by a crafty Cadlon: keep hammering down the message that we aren't ready to take on the sheer volume of numbers that the Caradysh have, and that if more people were skilled in combat that would be possibly different. And oh by the way, the Cernn have this marvelous tradition that's been all the rage, where we channel the aggression of our youth constructively into games of sport and cooperative play. Isn't it marvelous? (The same squad operations that make football players effective are, fundamentally, what makes squads of militia useful as shieldwalls and so on.)

It miiiight help to stave off the outrage at the Caradysh for a turn or two, and would probably help us with aggressively-peaceful negotiations with the Caradysh to get them to make diplomatic gestures of their own to placate the Arthwydish.

Maybe this could be done under the auspices of a Venerate action by making the Games a sacred institution?
The big problem I see with Arete and other similar values is that any state which would take it on as a core value, that excellence makes someone "worthy", is also a state that accepts that there are those who are "unworthy". How do you think those considered unworthy would be treated compared to those considered worthy?

That sort of thought is not one that I would want permutating through the Arthwyd, personally.
 
@Oshha -- would it be possible to push a values mutation onto the Cernn if we accept a values mutation in Arthwyd as a whole?

They're being accepted as civilized, but have too much of a martial focus. I was wondering if we could have something like the ancient greek value of Arete -- where one's worthiness was based on general "excellence", which included physical/athletic prowess as well as academic and spiritual. This is why the Olympic Games came about, for example.

It would de-escalate the Cernn as militarists while probably resulting in local non-sacred self-organized militias sprouting up in areas where they were training to compete in the Games. This would also be something that the outrage about the Caradysh could be channeled into by a crafty Cadlon: keep hammering down the message that we aren't ready to take on the sheer volume of numbers that the Caradysh have, and that if more people were skilled in combat that would be possibly different. And oh by the way, the Cernn have this marvelous tradition that's been all the rage, where we channel the aggression of our youth constructively into games of sport and cooperative play. Isn't it marvelous? (The same squad operations that make football players effective are, fundamentally, what makes squads of militia useful as shieldwalls and so on.)

It miiiight help to stave off the outrage at the Caradysh for a turn or two, and would probably help us with aggressively-peaceful negotiations with the Caradysh to get them to make diplomatic gestures of their own to placate the Arthwydish.

Maybe this could be done under the auspices of a Venerate action by making the Games a sacred institution?
In Paths of Civilization we find out what the Arete Value does to a civilisation. It turns the civilisation into one that has a stratified class of elitist asshole nobles.
 
Last edited:
The big problem I see with Arete and other similar values is that any state which would take it on as a core value, that excellence makes someone "worthy", is also a state that accepts that there are those who are "unworthy". How do you think those considered unworthy would be treated compared to those considered worthy?

That sort of thought is not one that I would want permutating through the Arthwyd, personally.
This might be part of the issue the Arthwyd have with Cernn militarism really. Made worse by the lack of separation between military and civilian.

A healthier way to deal with Cernn militarism might be to help them develop their own Cateyes and Catclaws so their greatest warriors will tend to be members of the Arthrynite priesthood with values that reflect the core message of Arthryn and her daughters.
This pushes them closer to our own peacetime/wartime Cadlon model and paves the way for more noncombatant members of society to find a respectable role(Sacred Warriors need the community to support their lifestyle after all).
 
The big problem I see with Arete and other similar values is that any state which would take it on as a core value, that excellence makes someone "worthy", is also a state that accepts that there are those who are "unworthy". How do you think those considered unworthy would be treated compared to those considered worthy?

That sort of thought is not one that I would want permutating through the Arthwyd, personally.

Depends on what "worthiness" entails. Dikaiosyne and Sophrosyne for example. (Justice and self-restraint) along with virtuous moral conduct, where the society already has a moral standard that includes communally oriented action as morally superior? I'm fairly certain that such a thing would result in things like public academies and publicly funded schooling.

In Paths of Civilization we find out what the Arete Value does to a civilisation. It turns the civilisation into one that has a stratified class of elitist asshole nobles.

Paths of Civilization did it tremendously wrong, then. Just saying. Arete isn't about elitism, it's about excellence. Living up to one's full potential, whatever that may be. The chimneysweep who is the best of all chimneysweeps has vastly more Arete than the nobleman who lets his lands go fallow and wastes his family's coin on wine. The gravedigger who keeps an orderly graveyard and is meticulous in honoring the rites of the dead has more Arete than the king who betrays the nation's alliances and lets the people go hungry so that he can wage wars nobody wants. And so on.
 
Last edited:
The issue is that the Arthwyd see warfare as something barbaric that is to be avoided by civilised people while the Cernn still values martial prowess as one of their main Values.
 
Depends on what "worthiness" entails. Dikaiosyne and Sophrosyne for example. (Justice and self-restraint) along with virtuous moral conduct, where the society already has a moral standard that includes communally oriented action as morally superior? I'm fairly certain that such a thing would result in things like public academies and publicly funded schooling.



Paths of Civilization did it tremendously wrong, then. Just saying. Arete isn't about elitism, it's about excellence. Living up to one's full potential, whatever that may be. The chimneysweep who is the best of all chimneysweeps has vastly more Arete than the nobleman who lets his lands go fallow and wastes his family's coin on wine. The gravedigger who keeps an orderly graveyard and is meticulous in honoring the rites of the dead has more Arete than the king who betrays the nation's alliances and lets the people go hungry so that he can wage wars nobody wants. And so on.
The theory of Arete is sound, I'm sure. I have to imagine that this is not quite how it works in practice.

I'm not the biggest history buff, but from what I know of ancient Greece the chimneysweep is not in any situation regarded as higher than the noble (beyond the occasional worthless platitude I suppose). The affluent show their Arete by being affluent, as surely such a wealthy person must work to keep their wealth? Surely an unworthy noble would be replaced by one who is worthy? Surely those at the top deserve to be there?

And so it goes.
 
Paths of Civilization did it tremendously wrong, then. Just saying. Arete isn't about elitism, it's about excellence. Living up to one's full potential, whatever that may be. The chimneysweep who is the best of all chimneysweeps has vastly more Arete than the nobleman who lets his lands go fallow and wastes his family's coin on wine. The gravedigger who keeps an orderly graveyard and is meticulous in honoring the rites of the dead has more Arete than the king who betrays the nation's alliances and lets the people go hungry so that he can wage wars nobody wants. And so on.
What it is in theory doesn't matter nearly so much as how it manifests in practice, and how it manifests in practice is accurately represented in Paths of Civilization. You want to talk about how great it is in a frictionless spherical void then fine, but don't start advocating it as something that we or any civilisation should get into under the belief that it will, in actual practice, turn out well.
 
Paths of Civilization did it tremendously wrong, then. Just saying. Arete isn't about elitism, it's about excellence. Living up to one's full potential, whatever that may be. The chimneysweep who is the best of all chimneysweeps has vastly more Arete than the nobleman who lets his lands go fallow and wastes his family's coin on wine. The gravedigger who keeps an orderly graveyard and is meticulous in honoring the rites of the dead has more Arete than the king who betrays the nation's alliances and lets the people go hungry so that he can wage wars nobody wants. And so on.
At least from what I know if POC. The issue was more that people wound up pigeonholed in roles outside of major outliers. If you were born from a farmer you would become one, similar if you were born to a scholar, a warrior, or a crafter. The theory of arete is sound, but well... Like communism, implementing it in a way that won't cause problems can be difficult...
 
The theory of Arete is sound, I'm sure. I have to imagine that this is not quite how it works in practice.

I'm not the biggest history buff, but from what I know of ancient Greece the chimneysweep is not in any situation regarded as higher than the noble (beyond the occasional worthless platitude I suppose). The affluent show their Arete by being affluent, as surely such a wealthy person must work to keep their wealth? Surely an unworthy noble would be replaced by one who is worthy? Surely those at the top deserve to be there?

And so it goes.
Ehh. There's always a framework in which nobles claim that they're better people than peasants. You saw the same thing happen with the knights of Europe before the implementation of the Chivalric Code, and Samurai in Japan before the later revisions of Bushido -- and to an extent after in each. And of course you also saw elitism throughout history without such codes. Hell you see Christianity used to that effect as well. Just look at the Vatican's gold supply.

The difference is that Bushido, Chivalry, and so on mitigated the issues of that elitism. Were they perfect? By no means. But that was what they were expressly intended to do, and they did accomplish a mitigation of that elitism. The same happened within Greece with the implementation of the values of learnedness, justice, and moral virtuousness. This was one of the major differences between the Spartan and Athenian city-states, in fact.

In a society like the Arthwyd, however, where there is a pre-existing system of values to inform the 'spiritual' component of moral worthiness and excellence, then that would of course pre-empt such things. You'd go straight to the 'civilizing of the brutes' period of the institution. And mind you, the Arthwyd already have this to an extent with their view of who is "civilized" and who is "barbarian" -- the major trick that would be happening here is the reduction from casting entire societies with this light to casting on individuals. And as long as it's done with some degree of intentionality, such as by the Cadlon and the Cadlon's leadership staff, you can bet it would develop in a way that reflected the standard values of the society that already exist; embracing all comers, uplifting all equally, and doing your best. Since the Arthwyd already do not endorse elitism, an Arete value within the Arthwydish people could not endorse elitism. Hence the idea that adopting Arete as a value would almost without question result in things like publicly funded schools for children regardless of social background.

The ship of elitism has long since sailed with things like how the Goddesses now share their blessings. The Gods have spoken on the issue of elitism, and a cultural value of endorsing and enshrining personal excellence just can't evolve into said elitism.


What it is in theory doesn't matter nearly so much as how it manifests in practice, and how it manifests in practice is accurately represented in Paths of Civilization. You want to talk about how great it is in a frictionless spherical void then fine, but don't start advocating it as something that we or any civilisation should get into under the belief that it will, in actual practice, turn out well.
At least from what I know if POC. The issue was more that people wound up pigeonholed in roles outside of major outliers. If you were born from a farmer you would become one, similar if you were born to a scholar, a warrior, or a crafter. The theory of arete is sound, but well... Like communism, implementing it in a way that won't cause problems can be difficult...

I'm reiterating here, guys, that "Paths of Civilization" got it profoundly incorrect. That's just not how it works. Caste systems aren't a part of personal excellence and "living up to one's potential" and being representative of the spiritual values of your society. Whoever wrote that was deeply mistaken about the term. This isn't "Frictionless spherical void" territory -- it's just straight up wrong. This isn't "Paths of Civilization", this is "Chronicles of Nations"; the QM is not beholden to the errors of PoC.
 
Last edited:
I'm reiterating here, guys, that "Paths of Civilization" got it profoundly incorrect. That's just not how it works. Caste systems aren't a part of personal excellence and "living up to one's potential" and being representative of the spiritual values of your society. Whoever wrote that was deeply mistaken about the term. This isn't "Frictionless spherical void" territory -- it's just straight up wrong. This isn't "Paths of Civilization", this is "Chronicles of Nations"; the QM is not beholden to the errors of PoC.
That's like saying "We should introduce Christianity to a civilisation so that they will be peaceful and charitable and forgiving." You need to understand that your pet philosophy is not unique. Just like every other philosophy, it can be, has, and will be distorted into something different when introduced to the real world. Some philosophies weather the distortion of the real world better than others and so become legitimately better forces for positive change than others even if on paper it doesn't seem like it, but Arete is a philosophy that really fails in this regard. You insistence that that philosophy should've been held to perfectly and exactly by the civilisation in POC, unlike every other philosophy that civilisations hold to (or purport to hold to) is illogical.
 
Last edited:
That's like saying "We should introduce Christianity to a civilisation so that they will be peaceful and charitable and forgiving." You need to understand that your pet philosophy is not unique. Just like every other philosophy, it can be, has, and will be distorted into something different when introduced to the real world. Some philosophies weather the distortion of the real world better than others and so become legitimately better forces for positive change than others even if on paper it doesn't seem like it, but Arete is a philosophy that really fails in this regard. You insistence that that the civilisation in POC should've followed the philosophy perfectly and exactly, unlike every other philosophy that a civilisation holds to (or purports to hold to) is illogical.
Err... what?

No. I've repeatedly mentioned that it would be layered on the pre-existing values of the society in question. I'm banking on it "distorting into something different when introduced to the real world."

The Arthwyd already have notions about what qualifies as moral virtue. The extended virtue of Arete -- of embracing and celebrating personal excellence -- would not and could not exist in a vacuum. That's literally the error PoC got wrong; impugning that Arete as a value comes with certain preconceived notions of social stratification and so on that would then be imposed on the society. That your potential as a farmer's son is your ability as a farmer, and that your potential as a noble's son is as a nobleman, and so on.

That elitism isn't a part of Arete in and of itself; it comes from somewhere else, and bringing it along for the ride is the error. Nothing about the concept of systemically celebrating living up to one's potential and being a good and excellent person includes a caste system. Again, that came from somewhere completely else and bringing it along for the ride is an error.

It's not about whether or not POC should have followed the philosophy "perfectly and exactly,unlike every other philosophy" -- it's about the fact that PoC just got it deeply and entirely incorrect on multiple levels. CoN is not beholden to making that mistake and referencing PoC's implementation of the idea is simply poisoning the well. It's not relevant; CoN doesn't have to do things the way PoC did, and that includes not being forced to make the mistakes PoC did.

Arete is not social stratification; is not elitism for elitism's sake; does not exist in a vacuum. Arete is celebrating personal virtue and competence -- and it is the other values of a society that determine what personal virtue is or isn't. Elitism is not a value of the Arthwydish. There's a reason why I mentioned that the Arthwydish version of the Olympics would almost without question involve cooperative sports -- that's just how they roll.

Stop caring about or mentioning PoC in this conversation: PoC got it so far from correct that all it does is waste time having to keep explaining that.
 
Last edited:
It's not about whether or not POC should have followed the philosophy "perfectly and exactly,unlike every other philosophy" -- it's about the fact that PoC just got it deeply and entirely incorrect on multiple levels. CoN is not beholden to making that mistake and referencing PoC's implementation of the idea is simply poisoning the well.
You keep saying this and every time it sounds like "Real communism has never been tried."
 
You keep saying this and every time it sounds like "Real communism has never been tried."
I can't control the fact that you don't want to hear what I'm saying.

A society with a caste system is one that is directly inimical to the value of Arête. This is not "real communism has never been tried" but "communist countries don't have stock markets". Elitism is compatible with Arête, yes, but it is a wholly separate value-track and thinking Arête breeds/creates elitism is an error. It's worth noting that heroic accomplishment of the individual, however, is an expected norm within Arête systems which creates a path for social mobility that otherwise might not exist within the framework of elitism.

CoN doesn't have to turn "celebrating individual competence and virtuousness" into "imposing a caste system and noble elitism in paradoxical violation of every other value they already have".

I don't know how to make it simpler than that. You're stuck on insisting that Arête as seen in PoC is relevant to this discussion. It isn't. Whatever it was in PoC, it had nothing whatsoever to do with the historical and conceptual realities of the concept of "celebrating personal competence and moral virtue."

The word for "celebrating personal competence and moral virtue" is Arête. It can go wrong in some ways, especially in societies that care more about appearances than demonstrable realities -- look no further than the concept of "Face" in Asian cultures for an example failure mode -- but that's got nothing at all to do with the error PoC made.

Please stop bringing up PoC's bizarre and grossly mistaken misuse of the term Arête. It's just wasting everyone's time.
 
Last edited:
CoN doesn't have to turn "celebrating individual competence and virtuousness" into "imposing a caste system and noble elitism in paradoxical violation of every other value they already have".

I don't know how to make it simpler than that. You're stuck on insisting that Arête as seen in PoC is relevant to this discussion. It isn't. Whatever it was in PoC, it had nothing whatsoever to do with the historical and conceptual realities of the concept of "celebrating personal competence and moral virtue."

The word for "celebrating personal competence and moral virtue" is Arête. It can go wrong in some ways, especially in societies that care more about appearances than demonstrable realities -- look no further than the concept of "Face" in Asian cultures for an example failure mode -- but that's got nothing at all to do with the error PoC made.

Please stop bringing up PoC's bizarre and grossly mistaken misuse of the term Arête. It's just wasting everyone's time.
Honestly, I have to both agree and disagree. On one hand it is different than POC, and would likely manifest differently. On the other hand, well, it has a very real chance to put those who are better and/or talented on a pedestal, which could lead to stratification anyway... It is very important for us to stay aware of potential clues from the arthwyd perspective to try and stave off some issues, as well as thinking through possible consequences...
 
Honestly, I have to both agree and disagree. On one hand it is different than POC, and would likely manifest differently. On the other hand, well, it has a very real chance to put those who are better and/or talented on a pedestal, which could lead to stratification anyway...

Eventually, maybe. But that would require a lot of things to evolve without intervention by decisions or the priesthood. The fact that physical prowess can be augmented by becoming a Sacred Warrior -- which in turn requires to at least some extent actually upholding the values of the gods in order to retain that prowess -- staves off a loooooot of the elitist issues, however. It's pretty hard to claim innate superiority to others when doing so causes you to lose the very edge you're banking on to claim it. The Arthrynite Priesthoods have the same requirements of actually living up to their end of the relationship with the goddesses, and as a result there's an enduring bank of role-models that already refuse to be made separate and above others.

I doubt this was an intended consequence of us going the Holy route for magics, but there's really no reason not to lean into it. Our choices on the heritability of the Blessings of the Goddesses informs this stance quite a lot: all civilized denizens of Arthwyd have an equal shot at having the best advantages in the eyes of their gods. I don't believe it was ever shown that capacity for magic was heritable either, which also staves off the issue of elitism.

It is very important for us to stay aware of potential clues from the arthwyd perspective to try and stave off some issues, as well as thinking through possible consequences...

Yes, absolutely. But that's true of every value decision we make in the quest. We're currently seeing some of that backlash in the form of even our Traders demanding a war we can't afford with the Caradysh for example.
 
Last edited:
Born Equal
While the choices of a person and the world around them can make a person greater or lesser, everyone is born equal to each other.
Pros: Decreased social stratification,
Cons: Decreased social stratification,
Rather than cause internal stratification, I think Arete would be more at risk of strengthening the 'the choices of a person and the world around them can make a person greater or lesser' part of Born Equal to make the Arthwyd more condescending/aloof towards nations with fundamentally different value systems.

Collective elitism. A "Barbarian ways hinder the cultivation of virtue, which is why barbarian societies are lesser." type of deal.
 
Rather than cause internal stratification, I think Arete would be more at risk of strengthening the 'the choices of a person and the world around them can make a person greater or lesser' part of Born Equal to make the Arthwyd more condescending/aloof towards nations with fundamentally different value systems.

Collective elitism. A "Barbarian ways hinder the cultivation of virtue, which is why barbarian societies are lesser." type of deal.
They already have that in the Barbarian vs. Civilized thing they have going on. It could go either way.

The central benefits of it though would be in providing the central Arthwydish with a way to accept the Cernn by "demilitarizing" the Cernn in a way that doesn't just force them to abandon the parts of militarism (aside from violence) that they value. Brotherhood (cooperative sports), accomplishment/heroism (obvious), and physical prowess (again, obvious). On top of that, having the Arête virtue spread with local Games would tend to promote the core competencies of a standing militia without having an actual standing militia. A squad of football players already have the teamwork training a squad of shield wall bearers need to be effective, for example. This could result in the Arthwyd unlocking/developing mundane technologies that enhance the performance of militias, which in turn would help offset the "bodycount" problem of the Caradysh Wights.
 
Last edited:
[X] [SEC] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
[X] [MAIN] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Support Subordinate = (Cernn)
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Foreign+Glory)

Settle Land to completely fill out Greenbay.
Now is not a good time to reach out for shinies. When we did the last Census, that would've been a good time since we didn't have anything demanding our attention and we were free to pursue shinies. Right now we have way too much on our plate to pursue side projects, even if the reward is an extra passive. (And that is ultimately a guess on your part. Personally, I see nothing that suggests you're right, and in fact believe that if it would get us a passive, our passive expansion would first expand to finish our provinces.)

1. The ice age is ending soon which means we're on the clock. If we don't get close enough to the Caradysh before it ends, we have to take values from the Cernn, which suck. More diplomacy is needed with the Caradysh.
2. We need to keep strengthening the relationship with the Caradysh. They have much to offer us if we have a good relationship with them, and a stronger relationship further reduces the chance of war with the very mighty peer power.
3. We have -1 Stability incoming from the Monarchists since we're not going to war, and -1 Stability from the Conservatives because with our Prestige it is impossible to get a new colony. We'll need to restore this Stability to keep making good but internally unpopular decisions and to keep the golden age counter going.
4. One of the big reasons the Arthwyd's remained stable and prosperous for so long is that it's made sure to keep its factions happy, but because of the above stuff, we'll be pressed for the necessary actions to finish the quests we can and want to do.

Once the Caradysh situation is settled, our Stability is stabilised and maximised, and we've caught up on the faction quests, we'll have free time again and can once more pursue shinies. Can be megaprojects, can be settling land, can be anything.
 
They already have that in the Barbarian vs. Civilized thing they have going on. It could go either way.

The central benefits of it though would be in providing the central Arthwydish with a way to accept the Cernn by "demilitarizing" the Cernn in a way that doesn't just force them to abandon the parts of militarism (aside from violence) that they value. Brotherhood (cooperative sports), accomplishment/heroism (obvious), and physical prowess (again, obvious). On top of that, having the Arête virtue spread with local Games would tend to promote the core competencies of a standing militia without having an actual standing militia. A squad of football players already have the teamwork training a squad of shield wall bearers need to be effective, for example. This could result in the Arthwyd unlocking/developing mundane technologies that enhance the performance of militias, which in turn would help offset the "bodycount" problem of the Caradysh Wights.
And the Barbarian vs Civilized thing could become a more entrenched part of our culture or end up magnifying itself.

The Cernn don't seem to be valuing a set of traits that happen to promote militarism so much as they value the militarism in and of itself. Which is probably the result of their long history of being attacked by other factions.
Physical prowess might be valued because it can be used for the violence needed to protect the clan, heroism might be defined as the utilization of violence for the good of the community.
Likewise, the Arthwyd don't seem to be taking issue with the willingness to defend their communities so much as the fact that martial prowess is being used as a determinant of a person's worth instead of being an unfortunate necessity in an unkind world.
By helping the Cernn set up a core of career soldiers whose lifestyle is supported by the rest of society we would be leaving this desire for communities to have the capacity for violence intact while pushing the Cernn communities to value those who allow for the Sacred Warriors' lifestyle to be supported. Which validates the peace-loving Arthwyd way of life.

There are better ways of answering the Caradysh bodycount problem beyond throwing a larger percentage of the population at the problem. The most straightforward of them being research into improved divine magic or military tactics. Though fortifications or a larger population base would also be viable alternatives.

Now is not a good time to reach out for shinies. When we did the last Census, that would've been a good time since we didn't have anything demanding our attention and we were free to pursue shinies. Right now we have way too much on our plate to pursue side projects, even if the reward is an extra passive. (And that is ultimately a guess on your part. Personally, I see nothing that suggests you're right, and in fact believe that if it would get us a passive, our passive expansion would first expand to finish our provinces.)

1. The ice age is ending soon which means we're on the clock. If we don't get close enough to the Caradysh before it ends, we have to take values from the Cernn, which suck. More diplomacy is needed with the Caradysh.
2. We need to keep strengthening the relationship with the Caradysh. They have much to offer us if we have a good relationship with them, and a stronger relationship further reduces the chance of war with the very mighty peer power.
3. We have -1 Stability incoming from the Monarchists since we're not going to war, and -1 Stability from the Conservatives because with our Prestige it is impossible to get a new colony. We'll need to restore this Stability to keep making good but internally unpopular decisions and to keep the golden age counter going.
4. One of the big reasons the Arthwyd's remained stable and prosperous for so long is that it's made sure to keep its factions happy, but because of the above stuff, we'll be pressed for the necessary actions to finish the quests we can and want to do.

Once the Caradysh situation is settled, our Stability is stabilised and maximised, and we've caught up on the faction quests, we'll have free time again and can once more pursue shinies. Can be megaprojects, can be settling land, can be anything.
Claiming that now is not a good time to reach out for shinies while explicitly pushing for the shiny unknown that are Caradysh values and the known shiny that is a Golden Age is a bit hypocritical don't you think?
A 15/15 province might mean an extra Passive. Or it might mean an extra SEC action. Or it could even just mean an additional Province Action. As you pointed out, just because the 12/15 Province marker gave us a Passive doesn't mean the 15/15 stage will accomplish the exact same thing, even if you're taking that to mean that completely filling out a province has no benefits whatsoever.

1. The Maradysh were a valid target for Charitable Haven back when we took the Forlucan Bloodied, but Unbowed. As were the Raradysh, the Zaradysh, the Tordysh, the Lorvysh and the Forluc. All of whom we still maintain relations with. In addition, the Foreign Passive Policy may very well establish contact with other factions. We have absolutely no shortage of value targets if you hate the Cernnite values so much.
2. The Caradysh appear to be largely self-sufficient aside from their corpse import. And they are unlikely to be receiving support from the Arthrynite Pantheon when it comes to our divine magic. We have very little to offer them beyond metal weapons and tools.
2.1 That aside, diplomatic contact with the Caradysh has historically been bad for our Stability and Legitimacy. Given that we just took a stabhit and have some very angry factions clamouring for war, now is really not the time for direct interaction if you're actually worried about Stability.
3. I am not opposed to a single SEC or a single MAIN Venerate. What I am opposed to is trying to spend the bulk of our actions trying to fix the wrongthink of our population instead of actually trying to address the concerns of the populace or otherwise pursue productive goals. We've seen that type thing with autocratic regimes clinging to power, they are a poor example to emulate.
4. Unhappy factions tend to give punitive quests. And getting new quests while at low stability tends to result in quests that raise stability. We've dealt with low stability situations and unhappy factions before, we can do so again.

I'm just not sharing your desire for Caradysh shinies.
 
Last edited:
[X] [SEC] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
[X] [MAIN] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Support Subordinate = (Cernn)
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Foreign+Glory)
 
Back
Top