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Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest

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I mean, just because they were practical and used at best enlightened self interest doesn't mean it wouldnt' still be motivated by the desire to farm the lowlanders for bodies. Letting them all die at once gives a greater number *once* giving them food so you have a continuous supply of living people that turn to ded people...that pays off more dividends in food your dead don't need to eat.
 
*crosses arms*
So, the big question is, can we militarize hard enough to get the Caradysh to back down/change strategies?
And if we do, will they in turn chill out or will they continue to prepare for the battle to come?
 
Who said they are preparing for war? Seriously, where did you get that? Again, they are looking optimistic now that we haven't immediately declared war. I have no clue how people are thinking that that means that they are preparing for all out war or something.
 
Even if they aren't preparing for war right now, fact of the matter is what we do with our dead bodies is in their eyes the equivalent of an entire country of people who shit gold and then bury it. One way or the other, they'll eventually come for our gold because it is just too tempting.
 
Since the post containing my previous vote is starting to look like a mess...

[X] [SEC] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
[X] [MAIN] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Support Subordinate = (Cernn)
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Foreign+Glory)

Settle Land to completely fill out Greenbay.
Support for the Cernn to help them develop some kind of Sacred Warrior(it's fine if they also want a militia given their history of getting attacked, but civilized Arthrynites simply must have Sacred Warriors who dedicate their lives to the Sacred Defense of Community).
Passives for our people to start looking outward again and to make our administration of vassal territories less brittle.

Approval for:
[] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses

[X] [SEC] Build Wall = (Eastern Rock River)
[X] [SEC] Build Wall = (Western Rock River)

Internal diplomacy could be healthy if kept to a light touch. But if we're planning to deal with the concerns of our people, we might want to actually address their concerns.

Edit:
[X][SEC] More Farming.
Farming remains desirable in the present scenario.

EditEdit:
MAIN Venerate is currently leading and I'd rather not have our approach to unrest be heavy-handed re-education of the general populace while refusing to address their concerns.

[X] [MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors
 
Last edited:
The vote is still open.
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest Original | Page 124 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 3101-3132]
##### NetTally 2.2.0

Task: SEC

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = (Caradysh)
No. of Votes: 3
[X] noncannon
[X] Andres110
[X] Illusion of Eris

[X][SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
No. of Votes: 3
[X] Andres110
[X] Illusion of Eris
[X] Qeqre

[X][SEC] Build Wall = (Eastern Rock River)
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Donkey Hote
[X] Qeqre

[X][SEC] Build Wall = (Western Rock River)
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Donkey Hote
[X] Qeqre

[X][SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Foreign+Glory)
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Andres110
[X] Qeqre

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Bruraysh
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Diondairysh
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Hamefordysh
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Lowlander Tribes
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Sinsearysh
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote

[X][SEC] Explore Lands = Cursed Forest
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote

[X][SEC] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
No. of Votes: 2
[X] argenten
[X] Qeqre

[X][SEC] Support Subordinate = (Cernn)
No. of Votes: 2
[X] argenten
[X] Qeqre

[X][SEC] Build Wall = (Sunrise bay)
No. of Votes: 1
[X] nat_401

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Boarfolk Nomads
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Fordysh
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Fornn
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Thurezea
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] Explore Lands = Southern Lowlands
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] More Farming.
No. of Votes: 1
[X] argenten

[X][SEC] Switch Province Policy = (Megaproject)
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Illusion of Eris

[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = Boarfolk Nomads
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = Caradysh
No. of Votes: 1
[X] noncannon

[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = Lowlander Tribes
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = Thurezea
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: MAIN

[X][MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors
No. of Votes: 3
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote
[X] nat_401

[X][MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses
No. of Votes: 3
[X] nat_401
[X] Andres110
[X] Illusion of Eris

[X][MAIN] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
No. of Votes: 2
[X] argenten
[X] Qeqre

[X][MAIN] Trade Expedition = Caradysh
No. of Votes: 1
[X] noncannon


Total No. of Voters: 8
 
Zaealix said:
*crosses arms*
So, the big question is, can we militarize hard enough to get the Caradysh to back down/change strategies?
And if we do, will they in turn chill out or will they continue to prepare for the battle to come?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There isn't the slightest bit of evidence that they're preparing for any kind of conflict. Everything we know about the Caradysh suggests they're hoping for continued peace. We should work with that desire for peace.

065tdsa said:
Even if they aren't preparing for war right now, fact of the matter is what we do with our dead bodies is in their eyes the equivalent of an entire country of people who shit gold and then bury it. One way or the other, they'll eventually come for our gold because it is just too tempting.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This language you're using is messed up. In a story where peace between two nations is entirely possible and mutually beneficial, your language is the kind an evil politician uses to destroy the peace and seize power for themselves.


Being assholes is a bad thing for everyone involved. The Caradysh have shown nothing but promise as long term neighbours with us. The baseless assumptions of They May Become A Threat must be ended or we will suffer for it, maybe even be destroyed entirely in an utterly pointless, completely avoidable war.
 
Andres110 said:
This language you're using is messed up. In a story where peace between two nations is entirely possible and mutually beneficial, your language is the kind an evil politician uses to destroy the peace and seize power for themselves.


Being assholes is a bad thing for everyone involved. The Caradysh have shown nothing but promise as long term neighbours with us. The baseless assumptions of They May Become A Threat must be ended or we will suffer for it, maybe even be destroyed entirely in an utterly pointless, completely avoidable war.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And also, if the whole point is getting access to a big body supply, well, a major war would have a high risk of destroying that very same supply, which, well... Don't really thing there would be any other reason to try and conquer a peer power...
 
Andres110 said:
There isn't the slightest bit of evidence that they're preparing for any kind of conflict. Everything we know about the Caradysh suggests they're hoping for continued peace. We should work with that desire for peace.


This language you're using is messed up. In a story where peace between two nations is entirely possible and mutually beneficial, your language is the kind an evil politician uses to destroy the peace and seize power for themselves.


Being assholes is a bad thing for everyone involved. The Caradysh have shown nothing but promise as long term neighbours with us. The baseless assumptions of They May Become A Threat must be ended or we will suffer for it, maybe even be destroyed entirely in an utterly pointless, completely avoidable war.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The evidence of them preparing for any kind of conflict is that they are and have been collecting massive numbers of bodies. They don't need that, unless they are going to use it for something, like say... killing the vast majority of us and using the rest to farm more bodies.

The language he's using is of someone aware that their neighbors are a major threat, entirely capable of starting a war at any time, and with little to no moral reason not to. They are an undead empire. They've gone to war with us before, sneak attacks and the like. There is zero reason to think they've stopped being evil, merely gotten smart about it. Its possible if unlikely that you are right and they want peace, but if we don't prepare ourselves for a defensive war against them, it isn't really giving much of a reason for them to. Since they could fight us whenever they think they are ready and at this point potentially win, or at least damage us drastically. Urth is known as the everevil for a reason, this naive assumption that his country has somehow drastically changed is extremely iffy and incredibly dangerous. So lets build walls, build up our military, and sure send a diplomatic/trade mission their way to give us the opportunity to buildup in case it becomes necessary, it doesn't hurt us to do so, and could potentially save us. If I'm wrong great, and we've got a potentially powerful ally and are working to make that happen, if I'm right, we are still prepped for when things go bad.
 
jjffjhjf said:
The evidence of them preparing for any kind of conflict is that they are and have been collecting massive numbers of bodies. They don't need that, unless they are going to use it for something, like say... killing the vast majority of us and using the rest to farm more bodies.

The language he's using is of someone aware that their neighbors are a major threat, entirely capable of starting a war at any time, and with little to no moral reason not to. They are an undead empire. They've gone to war with us before, sneak attacks and the like. There is zero reason to think they've stopped being evil, merely gotten smart about it. Its possible if unlikely that you are right and they want peace, but if we don't prepare ourselves for a defensive war against them, it isn't really giving much of a reason for them to. Since they could fight us whenever they think they are ready and at this point potentially win, or at least damage us drastically. Urth is known as the everevil for a reason, this naive assumption that his country has somehow drastically changed is extremely iffy and incredibly dangerous. So lets build walls, build up our military, and sure send a diplomatic/trade mission their way to give us the opportunity to buildup in case it becomes necessary, it doesn't hurt us to do so, and could potentially save us. If I'm wrong great, and we've got a potentially powerful ally and are working to make that happen, if I'm right, we are still prepped for when things go bad.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
...Caradysh Delenda Est much?
That is our viewpoint, and we are infamous as aggressors among said group...
 
And uh, you know that those bodies could be just as easily used for labor and infrastructure? I mean, if we had the ability to magic up mindless, massive dumb labor pools, we would be all over that. Farming, basic building, definitely not useful only for violence.
 
jjffjhjf said:
The evidence of them preparing for any kind of conflict is that they are and have been collecting massive numbers of bodies. They don't need that, unless they are going to use it for something, like say... killing the vast majority of us and using the rest to farm more bodies.

The language he's using is of someone aware that their neighbors are a major threat, entirely capable of starting a war at any time, and with little to no moral reason not to. They are an undead empire. They've gone to war with us before, sneak attacks and the like. There is zero reason to think they've stopped being evil, merely gotten smart about it. Its possible if unlikely that you are right and they want peace, but if we don't prepare ourselves for a defensive war against them, it isn't really giving much of a reason for them to. Since they could fight us whenever they think they are ready and at this point potentially win, or at least damage us drastically. Urth is known as the everevil for a reason, this naive assumption that his country has somehow drastically changed is extremely iffy and incredibly dangerous. So lets build walls, build up our military, and sure send a diplomatic/trade mission their way to give us the opportunity to buildup in case it becomes necessary, it doesn't hurt us to do so, and could potentially save us. If I'm wrong great, and we've got a potentially powerful ally and are working to make that happen, if I'm right, we are still prepped for when things go bad.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Caradysh aren't doing some special build up of forces. They're an undead faction and there's thousands of corpses around from all the massive battles so they collected them. That's just what you do if you're an undead faction.

If you truly think there's no reason for them to grab bodies except to invade us, I think that might mean you're operating under serious bias and that you need to rethink the situation without it. Your logic, such as it is, is equivalent to saying "We need to prepare for war against the Forluc because they are having babies; obviously it's to build up an army and attack us." The undead faction getting corpses to make more undead is no different. They use the corpses to do the same stuff our people do, including feeding uncivilised lowlanders. They would use some as warriors, just as we train some of our people as warriors, but far more likely than invasion, it's to defend against their powerful, belligerent neighbour who has a history of conflict with them, who have factions that want to go to war with them, who are led by players of which some think that war is desirable or inevitable or otherwise believe that we need to attack them.

As for evil, the Caradysh have never acted any worse than any other human civilisation in the region bar the Arthwyd. They're basically just humans.

The culture that the Caradysh are most similar to are the Arthwyd and vice versa. Neither of us value bloodline, we're the two least belligerent civilisations in the region, neither of us value war and martial prowess like the lowlanders and boarfolk, we both treat our subjects fairly in exchange for loyalty, we both saved our subjects from extinction during the ice age, and we both bring in new subjects through promises of benefits rather than conquest. Their love of magic and innovation is something we could appreciate, and unlike the lowlanders and boarfolk, they don't see our gifts of charity and acceptance of refugees as weakness. If the Arthwyd could get over themselves and properly build a relationship with the Caradysh, the two civilisations stand a pretty good chance of becoming legit friends.
 
Last edited:
[X] [SEC] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
[X] [MAIN] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
[X] [SEC] Support Subordinate = (Cernn)
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Foreign+Glory)
 
[X] [SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = (Caradysh)
[X] [MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Foreign+Glory)
 
[X] [SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = (Caradysh)
[X] [MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Foreign+Glory)
 
The Caradysh have been, more-or-less, imperialistic assholes in the past. As Andres110 suggested, basically another lowlander faction.

However, this was a ways in the past, they've shown for quite some time they don't desire war with us, they might have been low-key adopting Arthwyd culture (which comes with values), and there was almost certainly a change in leadership since Urth.

We can push on this with diplomacy, encourage further exchange of values.

In particular, they're not evil just because they're undead; that is an in-universe (and out-of-universe, for that matter) bias.
 
jjffjhjf said:
The evidence of them preparing for any kind of conflict is that they are and have been collecting massive numbers of bodies. They don't need that, unless they are going to use it for something, like say... killing the vast majority of us and using the rest to farm more bodies.

The language he's using is of someone aware that their neighbors are a major threat, entirely capable of starting a war at any time, and with little to no moral reason not to. They are an undead empire. They've gone to war with us before, sneak attacks and the like. There is zero reason to think they've stopped being evil, merely gotten smart about it. Its possible if unlikely that you are right and they want peace, but if we don't prepare ourselves for a defensive war against them, it isn't really giving much of a reason for them to. Since they could fight us whenever they think they are ready and at this point potentially win, or at least damage us drastically. Urth is known as the everevil for a reason, this naive assumption that his country has somehow drastically changed is extremely iffy and incredibly dangerous. So lets build walls, build up our military, and sure send a diplomatic/trade mission their way to give us the opportunity to buildup in case it becomes necessary, it doesn't hurt us to do so, and could potentially save us. If I'm wrong great, and we've got a potentially powerful ally and are working to make that happen, if I'm right, we are still prepped for when things go bad.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
@jjffjhjf could I prod you to approval-vote for:
[] [SEC] Support Subordinate = (Cernn)
[] [SEC] Build Wall = (Eastern Rock River)
[] [SEC] Build Wall = (Western Rock River)
since you're concerned about the Caradysh?

Having walls on the Arthwyd-Caradysh border should make it harder for the Caradysh to fight us if they are planning to fight us(and would make our people feel happier and safer in the interim).
Meanwhile. trying to spread the Sacred Warrior institution to the Cernn could give them an edge in the event of a Boarfolk or Lowlander attack against them(in addition to setting a standard for what makes a subordinate civilized that mitigates one of the reasons our people take issue with the Cernn being declared fully civilized), reducing the probability of us needing to come to their aid at an inopportune moment and potentially increasing the quality of reinforcements we can draw from across the Empire in the event of a Holy/Defensive War.
 
[X] [SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = (Caradysh)
[X] [MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Foreign+Glory)
 
The vote is still open.
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest Original | Page 124 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 3101-3147]
##### NetTally 2.2.0

Task: SEC

[X][SEC] Change up to two Passive Policies (Agriculture+Agriculture->Foreign+Glory)
No. of Votes: 7
[X] Andres110
[X] ALanos
[X] Ifraka
[X] Illusion of Eris
[X] noncannon
[X] Qeqre
[X] UwU

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = (Caradysh)
No. of Votes: 5
[X] Andres110
[X] ALanos
[X] Illusion of Eris
[X] noncannon
[X] UwU

[X][SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
No. of Votes: 5
[X] Andres110
[X] ALanos
[X] Illusion of Eris
[X] noncannon
[X] UwU

[X][SEC] Support Subordinate = (Cernn)
No. of Votes: 4
[X] argenten
[X] Ifraka
[X] Qeqre
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] Build Wall = (Eastern Rock River)
No. of Votes: 3
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote
[X] Qeqre

[X][SEC] Build Wall = (Western Rock River)
No. of Votes: 3
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote
[X] Qeqre

[X][SEC] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
No. of Votes: 3
[X] argenten
[X] Ifraka
[X] Qeqre

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Bruraysh
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Diondairysh
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Hamefordysh
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Lowlander Tribes
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Sinsearysh
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote

[X][SEC] Explore Lands = Cursed Forest
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote

[X][SEC] More Farming.
No. of Votes: 2
[X] argenten
[X] Qeqre

[X][SEC] Build Wall = (Sunrise bay)
No. of Votes: 1
[X] nat_401

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Boarfolk Nomads
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Fordysh
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Fornn
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] Diplomatic Expedition = Thurezea
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] Explore Lands = Southern Lowlands
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = Boarfolk Nomads
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = Lowlander Tribes
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member

[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = Thurezea
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: MAIN

[X][MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses
No. of Votes: 6
[X] nat_401
[X] ALanos
[X] Andres110
[X] Illusion of Eris
[X] noncannon
[X] UwU

[X][MAIN] Train Sacred Warriors
No. of Votes: 4
[X] Random Member
[X] Donkey Hote
[X] nat_401
[X] Qeqre

[X][MAIN] Settle Land = (Greenbay)
No. of Votes: 3
[X] argenten
[X] Ifraka
[X] Qeqre


Total No. of Voters: 11
 
@Oshha -- would it be possible to push a values mutation onto the Cernn if we accept a values mutation in Arthwyd as a whole?

They're being accepted as civilized, but have too much of a martial focus. I was wondering if we could have something like the ancient greek value of Arete -- where one's worthiness was based on general "excellence", which included physical/athletic prowess as well as academic and spiritual. This is why the Olympic Games came about, for example.

It would de-escalate the Cernn as militarists while probably resulting in local non-sacred self-organized militias sprouting up in areas where they were training to compete in the Games. This would also be something that the outrage about the Caradysh could be channeled into by a crafty Cadlon: keep hammering down the message that we aren't ready to take on the sheer volume of numbers that the Caradysh have, and that if more people were skilled in combat that would be possibly different. And oh by the way, the Cernn have this marvelous tradition that's been all the rage, where we channel the aggression of our youth constructively into games of sport and cooperative play. Isn't it marvelous? (The same squad operations that make football players effective are, fundamentally, what makes squads of militia useful as shieldwalls and so on.)

It miiiight help to stave off the outrage at the Caradysh for a turn or two, and would probably help us with aggressively-peaceful negotiations with the Caradysh to get them to make diplomatic gestures of their own to placate the Arthwydish.

Maybe this could be done under the auspices of a Venerate action by making the Games a sacred institution?
 
Logos01 said:
@Oshha -- would it be possible to push a values mutation onto the Cernn if we accept a values mutation in Arthwyd as a whole?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Potentially, but values in general aren't something the players have control over. You can try to push things down a path in hopes of getting a desirable outcome. Otherwise, you are pretty much limited in direct control to choosing to upgrade a random value or get a new random value when you complete a megaproject or are in a golden age.
 
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