Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest

[065tdsa]

Also, war is not inevitable and the Caradysh are not that evil. The Caradysh have always been open to diplomacy with us, they got their lowland territory by offering food instead of conquering and saved tens of thousands of peoples lives, and we can get a lot of good values from them. Making friends with them is a lot easier than beating them in a war.

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Giving away food does benefit them more than killing people who will die and become their source of free labor anyway, since it ensures those people will have children who will also die and become a source of free labor. Necromantic Economics 101.

And being at peace with them is easy, but friends is saying a bit much. The most we can expect is to postpone their demand for our people's corpses a while, which may or may not be long enough to find a solution. After that they'll knock on the door with some ludicrous amount of troops and demand an arrangement similar to what they have with everyone else in the surrounding area, because the economic benefits are just too good to pass up.

 

[random_npc]

Is their undead god king really gone? If so where is he and isn't there a replacement? Stalling will only lead to more corpses under their control, and even they couldn't raise them all at once they could just preserve them in their territory for any future need.

It's fine to not fight, but not to pretend that stalling and hoping for something bad to randomly happen to the Caradysh is a strategy. And its only fine to not fight if they don't decide to take advantage of the lack of a fight as much as they easily could.

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using a peace to sit back on do nothing would not be a strategy true. But if we for example, start gathering information, looking for integral strife to exploit, or whatever else we can come up with then we do have one. Stall is one half of a plan, the other is what you do with the time it gets you.

 

[Themarineguy]

Whether that is a reason to never fight them or a reason to fight them now, is the question. Because if they aren't fought right now you can forget of any chance of fighting them later.

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Honestly, a war would be really rough, since well...

• Not sure we have any counter to boar cav
• They can replenish losses much easier than we can
• And of course there is logistics and FOOD
  • The fact corpses don't need to be fed likely would be a big advantage in the logistics side, ESPECIALLY since winter will make everything harder
• Of course, they are ready for us
• And also, WE DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW HOW THE UNDEAD STUFF WORKS
  • This is also important, because, besides combat capabilities and the need for bodies, we are kind of in the dark. The massive growth might be because they are throwing an absurd amount of resources to build up to a point where they could survive against our BS civ.
• Also, we aren't exactly that good in tactics/strategy outside of the supply raids and guerilla warfare.

And being at peace with them is easy, but friends is saying a bit much. The most we can expect is to postpone their demand for our people's corpses a while, which may or may not be long enough to find a solution.

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That is kind of assuming they could sustain as much undead as they want with no real limit...
And well, that likely is, well, depends if they actually feel they need those extra bodies...

 

[noncannon]

The most we can expect is to postpone their demand for our people's corpses a while, which may or may not be long enough to find a solution. After that they'll knock on the door with some ludicrous amount of troops and demand an arrangement similar to what they have with everyone else in the surrounding area, because the economic benefits are just too good to pass up.

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We have a far larger living (i.e. reproducing) population, which means the more time we have to increase population, the less the manpower differential between us and the Caradysh.

Unless, that is, the Caradysh demand we, too, give them our corpses. The most advantageous moment for that would be now (with the greatest manpower differential and General Winter on their side) so if they don't do it now, they're unlikely to ever.

And it makes sense that they wouldn't: even though they would beat us, we would bloody them significantly in the process. They don't really want to fight a peer power if they don't have to.

(None of this rules out eventually diplomatically convincing us to give them our corpses.)

 

[Qeqre]

Or because their undead workforce and their undead army are fully interchangeable, and growing one is growing the other. That's part of what makes the Caradysh so disgustingly OP. The other part is that their undead have no expiration date so giving them a steady supply of corpses means they can exponentially expand their economy, which as mentioned directly converts to their military with minimal delay.

Whether that is a reason to never fight them or a reason to fight them now, is the question. Because if they aren't fought right now you can forget of any chance of fighting them later.

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A relatively static supply of corpses each year and the assumption of the corpses not decaying actually translates to linear growth, not exponential.

Exponential would be when the Caradysh use said undead workforce to farm so they can feed more people and buy more corpses. Which would make converting the undead workforce into an undead army less viable and requires the Caradysh to spend time and actions on further developing their farmlands and farming techniques(taking time away from researching better combat magic).

Is pretty clear that their corpses keep for a long time, our people are not even quite sure how long ago that war was. And it may well be true that it is impossible to win, but in that case it will only become even more impossible later.

It would take something completely ridiculous, like a Caradysh civil war causing them to completely destroy their own corpse stockpiles, to make them beatable.

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At the very least, we should wait until the Ice Age is over. And preferably until we have made Small Stone Walls part of every Arthwyd settlement(and/or set the Raradysh on the path of infrastructure development).

Caradysh vassals might not contribute to Caradysh tech either. And some of them might make a play for independence once they no longer need the undead to survive.

 

[065tdsa]

A relatively static supply of corpses each year and the assumption of the corpses not decaying actually translates to linear growth, not exponential.

Exponential would be when the Caradysh use said undead workforce to farm so they can feed more people and buy more corpses. Which would make converting the undead workforce into an undead army less viable and requires the Caradysh to spend time and actions on further developing their farmlands and farming techniques(taking time away from researching better combat magic).

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That's what they'll do, though? Specially once the ice age is over and their vassal populations can feed themselves, all they'll do will be make their vassals grow more and get more growth in return. And with good stockpiling it doesn't make the transition into an army any harder, so long as they can have them back relatively soon.

Mass boar cavalry with no concerns about supply lines and exhaustion makes for some pretty impressive blitzes too, the strategic speed likely has more in common with mechanized offensives than anything our people know of.

 

[Qeqre]

That's what they'll do, though? Specially once the ice age is over and their vassal populations can feed themselves, all they'll do will be make their vassals grow more and get more growth in return. And with good stockpiling it doesn't make the transition into an army any harder so long as they can have them back relatively soon. Mass boar cavalry plus no concerns about supply lines and exhaustion makes for some pretty impressive blitzes too.

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They don't appear to have boarfolk vassals to grow their supply of undead boar riders with. So presumably, getting more undead boar cav would require them to go to war against the Nomads.

And again, once the Ice Age is over and the vassal populations can feed themselves, said vassals might start seeking a better deal for themselves than what the Caradysh are giving them.

 

[Themarineguy]

That's what they'll do, though? Specially once the ice age is over and their vassal populations can feed themselves, all they'll do will be make their vassals grow more and get more growth in return. And with good stockpiling it doesn't make the transition into an army any harder, so long as they can have them back relatively soon.

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Depending on how it works. We can't exactly convert farmers into soldiers that easily. So, why would the undead have it easier, especially since depending on how it works, it could very well be harder. There is quite a bit we don't really know. 🤷‍♂️

 

[065tdsa]

Depending on how it works. We can't exactly convert farmers into soldiers that easily. So, why would the undead have it easier, especially since depending on how it works, it could very well be harder. There is quite a bit we don't really know. 🤷‍♂️

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The hardest part of making farmers into soldiers is making them not rout, literally everything else is secondary because even the cheapest spear can be a fine weapon if the ones holding it don't rout. Undead do not rout.

And again, once the Ice Age is over and the vassal populations can feed themselves, said vassals might start seeking a better deal for themselves than what the Caradysh are giving them.

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Even assuming they would, which I doubt because the deal is frankly amazing, food is just a huge concern for people who aren't us, they'd need quite an army to help them. And we're not exactly going to be offering, since if we wouldn't do it now we certainly won't do it a few generations of extra troops and additional preparation time later.

 

[Keeper of Dreams]

t gives the Caradysh casus belli and reason to attack immediately with a massive undead army when most of our empire is focused on food production and in the middle of a little ice age.

Also, war is not inevitable and the Caradysh are not that evil. The Caradysh have always been open to diplomacy with us, they got their lowland territory by offering food instead of conquering and saved tens of thousands of peoples lives, and we can get a lot of good values from them. Making friends with them is a lot easier than beating them in a war.

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Read latest chapters and past chapter you will know why they are evil. Casus Belli seriously?, they already have casus Belli we literally destroyed and suppressed them many times and your telling me they have no Casus Belli they are open to diplomacy to what extent?, and let me list few thing why making friends is bad.
One: Culturally different
Two: Life vs death "necromancy"
Three: They are reliant on undead in almost everything and use them to make food so you could say they are mostly self sufficient in terms of food
Four: Religious Difference is huge
Five: Slavery
there are more.

 

[Qeqre]

The hardest part of making farmers into soldiers is making them not rout. Undead do not rout.

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The type of undead used for manual labour in the past did not think either. Which made them kinda shitty in battle when not properly micromanaged.

Edit:

Even assuming they would, which I doubt because the deal is frankly amazing, food is just a huge concern for people who aren't us, they'd need quite an army to help them. And we're not exactly going to be offering, since if we wouldn't do it now we certainly won't do it a few generations of extra troops and additional preparation time later.

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The Boarfolk considered the undead an abominable heresy in the past, and a key teaching of Zaranna is to seize opportunities in the present in order to improve one's future.

Basically, if you want to go to war with the Caradysh? Don't kick them until they're down. The Caradysh have trouble beyond the horizon, and our current position is not favourable.

 

[Themarineguy]

The hardest part of making farmers into soldiers is making them not rout. Undead do not rout.

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???
What about making them able to not be a threat to their allies with weapons? Fighting requires a set of knowledge to actually be relevant in any sort of fight, as well, you kind of need to actually hit your enemy.
Edit:

Read latest chapters and past chapter you will know why they are evil. Casus Belli seriously?, they already have casus Belli we literally destroyed and suppressed them many times and your telling me they have no Casus Belli they are open to diplomacy to what extent?, and let me list few thing why making friends is bad.
One: Culturally different
Two: Life vs death "necromancy"
Three: They are reliant on undead in almost everything and use them to make food so you could say they are mostly self sufficient in terms of food
Four: Religious Deference is huge
Five: Slavery
there are more.

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For us, yes, for them, not so much. Though when talking about nations, even tiny things can be an excuse for war.

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[Andres]

they are open to diplomacy to what extent?

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They sent a diplomat to us and we responded with war. Later, we sent a diplomat to them and they responded quite favourably until we suddenly broke all contact. When it comes to diplomatic endeavours between us and the Caradysh, the Caradysh have always been more diplomatic than us.

 

[065tdsa]

What about making them able to not be a threat to their allies with weapons? Fighting requires a set of knowledge to actually be relevant in any sort of fight, as well, you kind of need to actually hit your enemy.

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Formation fighting in tight order is very simple. Once you take away pesky fear and self preservation this is literally easier than farming. They won't be doing any crazy tactical maneuvers but that's ok, those aren't necessary, all they have to be able to do is stay in formation, follow basic orders, recognize the enemy and stab the enemy.

Anything much more complicated can be left to all of that perfectly functional cavalry we know they have.

 

[Keeper of Dreams]

For us, yes, for them, not so much. Though when talking about nations, even tiny things can be an excuse for war.

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In what is tiny excuse when both side went to war against each other. casus belli they have as much of those than the other have Literally. I'm only explaining that taking the vow now and go to war later is better than not taking the vow and go to war later so why take the -1 stability and negative opinions by not taking the vow.

 

[Themarineguy]

Formation fighting in tight order is very simple. Once you take away pesky fear and self preservation this is literally easier than farming. They won't be doing any crazy tactical maneuvers but that's ok, those aren't necessary, all they have to be able to do is stay in formation, follow basic orders, recognize the enemy and stab the enemy.

Anything much more complicated can be left to all of that perfectly functional cavalry we know they have.

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...I am really not sure how effective a sea of levies would be against a sufficient force...
Since well, even IRL they tend to be inferior to those with good training. While the undead probably wont need to rely on morale, it isn't everything. And well, converting farmers into soldiers would also reduce food production, which could bring problems...

 

[Andres]

In what is tiny excuse when both side went to war against each other. casus belli they have as much of those than the other have Literally. I'm only explaining that taking the vow now and go to war later is better than not taking the vow and go to war later so why take the -1 stability and negative opinions by not taking the vow.

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Because we don't want to go to war ever and we shouldn't go to war. The Caradysh are powerful and can beat us in war, they have good values we want to take, even if we win the war we'll badly hurt ourselves and be unable to progress as a civilisation, being warlike will make the Arthwyd worse and lead to greater problems down the line, having a good relationship with the Caradysh can and will help us in loads of different ways like improving our food production, and we'll have to kill a lot of lowlanders who are loyal to the Caradysh because they saved them from total extinction. If we go to war against the Caradysh, whether now or later, we will be the bad guys and we will suffer for it, we might even die. Staying at peace with the Caradysh will be fantastic for us and everyone in the region.

 

[Qeqre]

Formation fighting in tight order is dead simple. Once you take away pesky fear and self preservation this is literally easier than farming.

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Converting their farming zombies into formation zombies would reduce Caradysh food exports, which reduces Caradysh corpse imports.
Even the Caradysh miss out on Econ if they were to use a Militia system.

Also, with the Cernn valuing martial prowess, our accepting the Cernn as fully civilized might skew the Arthwyd Empire towards military innovation.

I'm only explaining that taking the vow now and go to war later is better than not taking the vow and go to war later so why take the -1 stability and negative opinions by not taking the vow.

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Taking the vow might mean penalties if we don't actively work to prepare for war. Also a probable hit if our Cadlon dies before the war starts.

It might also give our people a hateboner for undead in general, whereas trying to make peace with a faction of post-Urth Caradysh might limit our hatred to just Urth.

Edit:

They won't be doing any crazy tactical maneuvers but that's ok, those aren't necessary, all they have to be able to do is stay in formation, follow basic orders, recognize the enemy and stab the enemy.

Anything much more complicated can be left to all of that perfectly functional cavalry we know they have.

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They will be slow in recognizing their enemy, moving towards their enemy and swinging their non-metal weapons against the enemy.
The enemy warriors are also composed of of stone-skinned supersoldiers with access to healing magic.

 

[Keeper of Dreams]

They sent a diplomat to us and we responded with war. Later, we sent a diplomat to them and they responded quite favourably until we suddenly broke all contact. When it comes to diplomatic endeavours between us and the Caradysh, the Caradysh have always been more diplomatic than us.

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That's because It was right and there actions at that time hence war, They have stayed quiet because they are gathering strength and we are powerful hence they chose diplomacy instead of antagonizing us and It work now they are back and more powerful

 

[Themarineguy]

Taking the vow might mean penalties if we don't actively work to prepare for war. Also a probable hit if our Cadlon dies before the war starts.

It might also give our people a hateboner for undead in general, whereas trying to make peace with a faction of post-Urth Caradysh might limit our hatred to just Urth.

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And, of course, it will also mean the Caradysh will know without a doubt war is coming and will prepare accordingly, which could be a big problem as well.

 

[noncannon]

Taking the vow might mean penalties if we don't actively work to prepare for war.

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It might also give our people a hateboner for undead in general, whereas trying to make peace with a faction of post-Urth Caradysh might limit our hatred to just Urth.

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Casual reminder that Oshha has been playing Ymaryn Successor Quest, where the mechanic Revaunchism is pretty much this exact thing.

 

[065tdsa]

Converting their farming zombies into formation zombies would reduce Caradysh food exports, which reduces Caradysh corpse imports.
Even the Caradysh miss out on Econ if they were to use a Militia system.

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Well of course they miss out, everything has a prize. But don't think of it as militias, think of it as mass mobilization. It's expensive but it completely destroys anyone who can't match it, and does so quickly. And then you send them back and work to recover your economy, which the guys you killed could be very smug about if they'd survived but they are dead so they are helping you replace casualties instead.

 

[Andres]

That's because It was right and there actions at that time hence war, They have stayed quiet because they are gathering strength and we are powerful hence they chose diplomacy instead of antagonizing us and It work now they are back and more powerful

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The Caradysh have never done anything to suggest they only do diplomacy with someone so they can build up their numbers and destroy them later. They have always been reasonable with both their diplomacy partners and their subjects. There is very good reason to think that long term peace is possible with them. We're more likely to get long term peace with diplomacy than we are to beat their massive army. It is important to understand that the military solution is not always the best long term solution to a peer power.

 

[Themarineguy]

That's because It was right and there actions at that time hence war, They have stayed quiet because they are gathering strength and we are powerful hence they chose diplomacy instead of antagonizing us and It work now they are back and more powerful

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And why would they force war upon themselves, it sounds like they aren't that interested in war

But don't think of it as militias, think of it as mass mobilization. It's expensive but it completely destroys anyone who can't match it, and does so quickly.

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...I think you may be underestimating the importance of skill. Yes morale won't be an issue, but well, don't think that they could use that to wreck people like you could in shogun 2 with ashigaru...

 

[Keeper of Dreams]

Well everyone has there own Opinion and I have my own I will stand by it. If not taking the vow is what everyone wants then I will accept it as its is.