Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest

[Raichu1972]

Beyond anything else, trying to fight the Caradysh at their strongest when we are the weakest we've been in a long time is a...poor idea.

Even if we could push them out of the Lowlands (we probably can with a combo of diplomancing with food for following our laws instead of having to give up your dead alongside pushing them out of key locations), it would be super costly and an overall poor idea when we're trying not to starve to death.

Also, even if this is just Urth in a wig rather than someone having supplanted him, this is still an opportunity to finally stop this forever war we have between us and the Caradysh. Unless you think they're always going to want to spread out and murder everyone in their path like locusts (as far as we've seen this is absolutely not the case), peace between us is certainly not a bad thing. Hell, they certainly seem far less "barbaric" than most of our other neighbors, and yet no one wishes to crusade against them.

 

[nat_401]

Eww, changed vote to accepting peace, I've already convinced myself the new "Cadlon" of the Caradysh isnt Urth in a wig, and apart from being undead the Caradysh havent actually done anything disagreeable since we tried to speak to them, which I voted for. Honestly if we had a way of dealing with undead boar cavelry I would vote to free the lowlands but as it is we need a better army (Looking at you now Cernn) and stronger combat magic.

I did not want to interact with these guys as peers without an advantage over them.

<Sulks>

 

[Andres]

Up until an unstoppable undead horde crashes through your peace, diplomacy, and cooperation like a bull in a china shop and you have no method to stop it because they have no reason to listen to you. Then you're just fucked.

Click to shrink...

We haven't heard a single thing about the Caradysh being the kind who stab people in the back and in all their history they've only been open to diplomacy with us - first when they initiated and we responded with war, second when they accepted our emissaries and were looking forward to peace up until we suddenly broke all contact. Out of every faction in the region, it's the Caradysh who are most open to diplomacy with us.

The logic you're using is complete trash. It's not establishing peaceful relations with the most diplomatic faction in the region (besides arguably us) that has the greatest odds of our destruction. It's waging an unprovoked war of aggression against a regional superpower with thirty thousand boarfolk and hundreds of thousands of infantry under its command plus the most advanced magic in the region while half our vassals are barely getting by even as they pour all their efforts into growing food while receiving food aid from us.

 

[Qeqre]

[] [Mega] Upgrading the census results in a way to improve the government from the work involved. (Gain one Administrative Innovation)
[] [Mega] The improvements to census allows for wisdom spread throughout the Arthwyd. (Upgrade a Value)
[] [Mega] The work on the census results in another idea being conceived. (Unlocks the Academy megaproject)

Click to shrink...

Admin innovation might fix or further delay our pioneering issue, but we might be able to get that kind of thing via a Golden Age or a Study passive, and that's assuming MAIN boats doesn't raise Centralization cap by upgrading the transportation infrastructure between coastal/river settlements.

*Checks Wiki*
Academy is the project that gives rulers better skills and boosts hero generation chance? Might fix our admin issue somewhere down the line.
Given Arthwyd equality, it might have more dispersed effects, which would also be good.

The Value Upgrade probably depends on how we deal with the Cernn and/or Forluc. Kinda risky.

What price to the Arthwyd demand of the Forluc?
[] [Forluc] The Arthwyd Empire refuse to aid the Forlucans. (-1 Temp Diplo, -1 Legitimacy, -1 Stability, ???)
[] [Forluc] No price as the Arthwyd Empire help of the Forlucans out of the kindness of their hearts. (+1 Diplo, +2 Temp Diplo, -10 Temp Econ, -10 Temp Mystic, ???)
[] [Forluc] The Arthwyd Empire will demand that what remains of the Forluc Empires submits to the Cadlon of the Arthwyd. (-10 Temp Econ, -10 Temp Mystic, Gain the Forluc as a vassal, Gain the Forden as a vassal, ???)
[] [Forluc] In addition to demanding submission, Arthwyd Empire will require the Forlucans will have to cease their slaving ways. (-20 Temp Econ, -20 Temp Mystic, Gain the Forluc as a vassal, Gain the Forden as a vassal, both the Forluc and the Forden abolish slavery in their lands, ???)

Click to shrink...

Allowing them into our empire while allowing them to retain the institution of slavery is obviously not an option to entertain, but demanding that they cease slavery is expensive.
Taking in two additional vassals would also put us at the subordinate cap by my count.
At the same time, not taking them in means allowing the slavery to continue and risks them eventually being made to bend to the Caradysh.

How do the Arthwyd react to the survival of the Cernn and its weird-fusion of Arthwydish and Lowlander culture?
[] [Cernn] The Arthwyd Empire acknowledges the Cernn as being a barbarian part of it. (Angered Cernn, -1 Legitimacy, ???)
[] [Cernn] The Arthwyd Empire acknowledges the Cernn as being a semi-civilised part of it. (Upset Cernn, ???)
[] [Cernn] The Arthwyd Empire acknowledges the Cernn as being a civilised part of it. (Pleased Cernn, -1 Legitimacy, -1 Stability, ???)

Click to shrink...

I mean, they seem to be semi-civilized in truth. To call them barbarians is to be rather purist, but to call them fully civilized might water down what it means to be Arthwyd and Arthrynite.

Semi-civilized it is. Prioritizing blood relatives is not and should not be Arthryn's way.

What do the Arthwyd do about the Caradysh Empire?
[] [Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire accepts the current situation as it is, making an uneasy peace with the Caradysh Empire. (-1 Stability, ???)
[] [Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire goes to war with the Caradysh Empire to drive back the undead abominations. (+1 Stability, ???)
[] [Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire vows to free the lowlands from the evil grip of the Caradysh Empire. (+1 Stability, ???)

Click to shrink...

Well shit. Urth either pretending to be gone, ascended to Godhood or somehow killed. And our stronger factions desire war.

Fuck that, we have people to feed, internal development to do. Lowland barbarian territories don't seem to be at risk of being developed and the supply of corpses takes away a reason for the Caradysh to go to war with us.

[X] [Mega] The work on the census results in another idea being conceived. (Unlocks the Academy megaproject)
[X] [Forluc] No price as the Arthwyd Empire help of the Forlucans out of the kindness of their hearts. (+1 Diplo, +2 Temp Diplo, -10 Temp Econ, -10 Temp Mystic, ???)
[] [Forluc] In addition to demanding submission, Arthwyd Empire will require the Forlucans will have to cease their slaving ways. (-20 Temp Econ, -20 Temp Mystic, Gain the Forluc as a vassal, Gain the Forden as a vassal, both the Forluc and the Forden abolish slavery in their lands, ???)
[X] [Cernn] The Arthwyd Empire acknowledges the Cernn as being a semi-civilised part of it. (Upset Cernn, ???)
[X] [Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire accepts the current situation as it is, making an uneasy peace with the Caradysh Empire. (-1 Stability, ???)

 

[Oshha]

*Checks Wiki*
Academy is the project that gives rulers better skills and boosts hero generation chance? Might fix our admin issue somewhere down the line.
Given Arthwyd equality, it might have more dispersed effects, which would also be good.

Click to shrink...

While I do take some inspiration from PoC and other civ quests, the Arthwyd and my mechanics are unique enough that the Academy project will be a different thing to what it was in PoC.

 

[Oshha]

The vote is still open.
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest Original | Page 120 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 2989-3029]
##### NetTally 2.2.0

Task: Mega

[X][Mega] The work on the census results in another idea being conceived. (Unlocks the Academy megaproject)
No. of Votes: 14

Spoiler: Voters

[X] Illusion of Eris
[X] argenten
[X] bobbya1
[X] carterhall
[X] demonthese2211
[X] Donkey Hote
[X] HanEmpire
[X] Ifraka
[X] jamie96969
[X] nat_401
[X] Qeqre
[X] Taliys
[X] UlseDovThur
[X] Weirdo

[X][Mega] The improved census reveals a talented individual. (Gain a Hero)
No. of Votes: 1

Spoiler: Voters

[X] Zaealix

[X][Mega] The improvements to census allows for wisdom spread throughout the Arthwyd. (Upgrade a Value)
No. of Votes: 1

Spoiler: Voters

[X] Shadowend

---

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Forluc

[X][Forluc] No price as the Arthwyd Empire help of the Forlucans out of the kindness of their hearts. (+1 Diplo, +2 Temp Diplo, -10 Temp Econ, -10 Temp Mystic, ???)
No. of Votes: 11

Spoiler: Voters

[X] Illusion of Eris
[X] bobbya1
[X] carterhall
[X] demonthese2211
[X] Donkey Hote
[X] jamie96969
[X] Kiba
[X] noncannon
[X] Qeqre
[X] Shadowend
[X] Zaealix

[X][Forluc] In addition to demanding submission, Arthwyd Empire will require the Forlucans will have to cease their slaving ways. (-20 Temp Econ, -20 Temp Mystic, Gain the Forluc as a vassal, Gain the Forden as a vassal, both the Forluc and the Forden abolish slavery in their lands, ???)
No. of Votes: 10

Spoiler: Voters

[X] HanEmpire
[X] argenten
[X] demonthese2211
[X] Ifraka
[X] nat_401
[X] Qeqre
[X] Random Member
[X] Taliys
[X] UlseDovThur
[X] Zaealix

[X][Forluc] The Arthwyd Empire will demand that what remains of the Forluc Empires submits to the Cadlon of the Arthwyd. (-10 Temp Econ, -10 Temp Mystic, Gain the Forluc as a vassal, Gain the Forden as a vassal, ???)
No. of Votes: 2

Spoiler: Voters

[X] Random Member
[X] noncannon

---

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Cernn

[X][Cernn] The Arthwyd Empire acknowledges the Cernn as being a civilised part of it. (Pleased Cernn, -1 Legitimacy, -1 Stability, ???)
No. of Votes: 16

Spoiler: Voters

[X] Illusion of Eris
[X] argenten
[X] bobbya1
[X] carterhall
[X] demonthese2211
[X] Donkey Hote
[X] HanEmpire
[X] Ifraka
[X] jamie96969
[X] nat_401
[X] noncannon
[X] Shadowend
[X] Taliys
[X] UlseDovThur
[X] Weirdo
[X] Zaealix

[X][Cernn] The Arthwyd Empire acknowledges the Cernn as being a semi-civilised part of it. (Upset Cernn, ???)
No. of Votes: 3

Spoiler: Voters

[X] Random Member
[X] noncannon
[X] Qeqre

[X][Cernn] The Arthwyd Empire acknowledges the Cernn as being a barbarian part of it. (Angered Cernn, -1 Legitimacy, ???)
No. of Votes: 1

Spoiler: Voters

[X] Random Member

---

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Caradysh

[X][Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire accepts the current situation as it is, making an uneasy peace with the Caradysh Empire. (-1 Stability, ???)
No. of Votes: 10

Spoiler: Voters

[X] jamie96969
[X] Andres110
[X] bobbya1
[X] carterhall
[X] demonthese2211
[X] noncannon
[X] Qeqre
[X] Random Member
[X] Shadowend
[X] Taliys

[X][Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire vows to free the lowlands from the evil grip of the Caradysh Empire. (+1 Stability, ???)
No. of Votes: 7

Spoiler: Voters

[X] HanEmpire
[X] argenten
[X] Donkey Hote
[X] Ifraka
[X] nat_401
[X] UlseDovThur
[X] Weirdo

[X][Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire goes to war with the Caradysh Empire to drive back the undead abominations. (+1 Stability, ???)
No. of Votes: 1

Spoiler: Voters

[X] Zaealix

Total No. of Voters: 20

 

[Random Member]

Alright, I've been convinced. We must start a glorious crusade to free the lowlands from the evil Caradysh imperialists!

[X] [Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire goes to war with the Caradysh Empire to drive back the undead abominations. (+1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire vows to free the lowlands from the evil grip of the Caradysh Empire. (+1 Stability, ???)

[X][Forluc] In addition to demanding submission, Arthwyd Empire will require the Forlucans will have to cease their slaving ways. (-20 Temp Econ, -20 Temp Mystic, Gain the Forluc as a vassal, Gain the Forden as a vassal, both the Forluc and the Forden abolish slavery in their lands, ???)

 

[Andres]

Got some information on the Caradysh's actions from the discord.

from what we know, they didn't even go out with their wights and conquer everyone while they starved, but rather...offered food for loyalty, as basically every Empire forever has done

Click to shrink...

They literally saved everyone that wasn't the Forluc or the Cernn from certain death.

Click to shrink...

So uh..."crusade to liberate the people from evil overlords" sounds particularly American in this context.

 

[Oshha]

Yeah, all of the lowlanders in the Caradysh Empire? Except for some former parts of the Forluc Empire, they would have starved or frozen to death without the aid of the Caradysh.

Also, the Caradysh don't access to metalworking. So while they have scavenged some metal tools from dead lowlanders, they lack access to a source of metal tools.

 

[Qeqre]

Spending time fighting zombies on land is time spent not building boats, megaprojects, spreading the Arthrynite faith to our vassals or further settling our existing provinces to give ourselves more policies/actions in the long run.

Also, the settlements bordering the Cursed Forest haven't been fully walled up yet.

 

[Andres]

Theocrats (3/20) = Goals: Empowerment of the Priesthood, Mood: Concerned, Ability: +1 to Mystic per 1 Faction Power, Objective: Build 4 Temples within 3 Turns, Success/Failure: +2 Temp Econ/-

Click to shrink...

@Oshha, our passives have built 2 temples.

EDIT: Also I think we're missing the temp econ from our passives too.

 

[Oshha]

@Oshha, our passives have built 2 temples.

EDIT: Also I think we're missing the temp econ from our passives too.

Click to shrink...

Both have been fixed. Thanks for catching those.

 

[random_npc]

hey, you know what undead don't care about? food, watter and heat. You know what a little ice age makes it near impossible to supply to a field army? food water and heat.

[X][Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire accepts the current situation as it is, making an uneasy peace with the Caradysh Empire. (-1 Stability, ???)

We do not have the logistics to fight in this climate. Not against someone who has cheat codes about logistics. maybe at some later date, but for now going to war with the undead would just result in us giving them more corpses to work with.

 

[Andres]

[X][Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire accepts the current situation as it is, making an uneasy peace with the Caradysh Empire. (-1 Stability, ???)
[X][Forluc] In addition to demanding submission, Arthwyd Empire will require the Forlucans will have to cease their slaving ways. (-20 Temp Econ, -20 Temp Mystic, Gain the Forluc as a vassal, Gain the Forden as a vassal, both the Forluc and the Forden abolish slavery in their lands, ???)

New vassals are bad, but ending slavery is very very good.

 

[Themarineguy]

[X] [Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire accepts the current situation as it is, making an uneasy peace with the Caradysh Empire. (-1 Stability, ???)

Honestly, I agree we really have no reason to appeal to the crusaders among our people. If anything, they are gearing up for war because they fully expect us to ATTACK THEM...

Caradysh = Ultimate Evil/Here We Go Again/None

Click to shrink...

I mean, they are used to it enough that they are resigned to our encounter, and honestly from what some of us has said, combined with the history between the groups...
Well, they fully expect another war being waged against them, which also happens to make a war even worse for us. On the other hand, if we could chip away from the status quo between us, we potentially could change the field while leaving them reevaluating us due to acting very unusually from what they know of us...

 

[Andres]

Huh. Just thought of another good reason to stay peaceful with the Caradysh: Charitable Haven. If we end up absorbing Bloodied, but Unbowed, we'll have to pick a new value to take from and that's not going to be fun. All the remaining Forluc values are bad and the Cernn are better but not by much. The Caradysh don't give a crap about blood relations, they've always been open to diplomacy, they like magic, they've done a crapload of Study actions over the centuries, and they're less belligerent compared to everyone except the Arthwyd. They are a fantastic source for Charitable Haven values. We should make friends with them as soon as possible.

 

[065tdsa]

Honestly, I agree we really have no reason to appeal to the crusaders among our people. If anything, they are gearing up for war because they fully expect us to ATTACK THEM...

Click to shrink...

Or because their undead workforce and their undead army are fully interchangeable, and growing one is growing the other. That's part of what makes the Caradysh so disgustingly OP. The other part is that their undead have no expiration date so giving them a steady supply of corpses means they can exponentially expand their economy, which as mentioned directly converts to their military with minimal delay.

Whether that is a reason to never fight them or a reason to fight them now, is the question. Because if they aren't fought right now you can forget of any chance of fighting them later.

 

[random_npc]

Or because their undead workforce and their undead army are fully interchangeable, and growing one is growing the other. That's part of what makes the Caradysh so disgustingly OP. The other part is that their undead have no expiration date so giving them a steady supply of corpses means they can exponentially expand their economy, which as mentioned directly converts to their military with minimal delay.

Whether that is a reason to never fight them or a reason to fight them now, is the question. Because if they aren't fought right now you can forget of any chance of fighting them later.

Click to shrink...

if there is no cap on how they can stack corpses, we've already lost. we would not win a war right now. The snow and cold is just to much of a relative advantage to the undead, and their only going to keep growing. if there is no cap, then we are already past the point where a military's solution would be viable, and we should be pivoting to a diplomatic one.

especially because marine guy is likely not wrong, an attack is the expected reaction here. I suspect they have plans and fortifications ready for an offensive.

 

[065tdsa]

if there is no cap on how they can stack corpses, we've already lost. we would not win a war right now. The snow and cold is just to much of a relative advantage to the undead, and their only going to keep growing. if there is no cap, then we are already past the point where a military's solution would be viable, and we should be pivoting to a diplomatic one.

especially because marine guy is likely not wrong, an attack is the expected reaction here. I suspect they have plans and fortifications ready for an offensive.

Click to shrink...

Well the information here:

And yet that was a very significant thing and it was with dawning horror that the Arthwydish leadership realised just how many bodies the Caradysh had gained over the last several generations. Not only did the Caradysh retain the bodies they gained in the ancient War of Three Powers, but the Forlucans and Cernn revealed that the Caradysh had collected the corpses of those who died during Kashkan's invasion and those that had died to the Cold.

Click to shrink...

Is pretty clear that their corpses keep for a long time, our people are not even quite sure how long ago that war was nor that it is the oldest corpses the Caradysh have, just that it is the last time they got some and that they still have them. And it may well be true that it is impossible to win, but in that case it will only become even more impossible later.

It would take something completely ridiculous, like a Caradysh civil war causing them to completely destroy their own corpse stockpiles, to make them beatable. And they have no reason to actually fight such a war with the corpses instead of choosing to preserve them as valuable resources and killing eachother instead.

 

[Keeper of Dreams]

[X] [Mega] The work on the census results in another idea being conceived. (Unlocks the Academy megaproject)
[X] [Forluc] In addition to demanding submission, Arthwyd Empire will require the Forlucans will have to cease their slaving ways. (-20 Temp Econ, -20 Temp Mystic, Gain the Forluc as a vassal, Gain the Forden as a vassal, both the Forluc and the Forden abolish slavery in their lands, ???)
[X] [Cernn] The Arthwyd Empire acknowledges the Cernn as being a civilised part of it. (Pleased Cernn, -1 Legitimacy, -1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire vows to free the lowlands from the evil grip of the Caradysh Empire. (+1 Stability, ???)
"Making a vow/promise to go to war later is better than going to war later anyway"

 

[random_npc]

Is pretty clear that their corpses keep for a long time, our people are not even quite sure how long ago that war was. And it may well be true that it is impossible to win, but in that case it will only become even more impossible later.

Click to shrink...

we know they keep for a long time, we don't know they don't have a cap on how many they can maintain. There is also a difference between "can't beat militarily" and "can't beat". Their undead god king is gone, that's going to open the door to change and all the instability that comes with it.

If you can't win the fight, stall. Right now, we're going to want to stall.

 

[065tdsa]

we know they keep for a long time, we don't know they don't have a cap on how many they can maintain. There is also a difference between "can't beat militarily" and "can't beat". Their undead god king is gone, that's going to open the door to change and all the instability that comes with it.

If you can't win the fight, stall. Right now, we're going to want to stall.

Click to shrink...

Is their undead god king really gone? If so where is he and isn't there a replacement? Stalling will only lead to more corpses under their control, and even they couldn't raise them all at once they could just preserve them in their territory for any future need.

It's fine to not fight, but not to pretend that stalling and hoping for something bad to randomly happen to the Caradysh is a strategy. And its only fine to not fight if they don't decide to take advantage of the lack of a fight as much as they easily could.

 

[Keeper of Dreams]

[] [Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire vows to free the lowlands from the evil grip of the Caradysh Empire. (+1 Stability, ???)
I don't see the down side of this decision, Its says vow to free lowland from evil's grip but not state to go into war right away plus, Its inevitable that we will go to war anyway in near future so why not take the vow and prepare while gaining stability and the Righteous motivation to fight evil not ignore it.

 

[Oshha]

our people are not even quite sure how long ago that war was.

Click to shrink...

Couple of things. First, that is meant to be the Grand War not the War of Three Powers. Second, the Arthwyd do know the dates. The War of Three Powers was fought between 1225 and 1260 while the Grand War was fought between 1440 and 1446. The current date as of the last update is 1910.

If so where is he and isn't there a replacement?

Click to shrink...

The Caradysh currently claims to be ruled by a female revenant calling herself Cadlon Morgyn of the Caradysh though whether or not you believe Urth is actually gone is up for debate both in-universe and out of universe.

Yet the most interesting and perhaps the concerning fact was that the Caradysh Empire was apparently not ruled by Urth, but an undead woman calling herself Morgyn and proclaiming herself to be Cadlon of the Caradysh. This news was met with some skeptism amongst the Arthwyd as few doubt that the Everevil could simply be gone, but by all accounts, this Morgyn had apparently taken over the Caradysh shortly before the foresters had make their move into the lowlands.

Click to shrink...

 

[Andres]

[] [Caradysh] The Arthwyd Empire vows to free the lowlands from the evil grip of the Caradysh Empire. (+1 Stability, ???)
I don't see the down side of this decision, Its says vow to free lowland from evil's grip but not state to go into war right away plus, Its inevitable that we will go to war anyway in near future so why not take the vow and prepare while gaining stability and the Righteous motivation to fight evil not ignore it.

Click to shrink...

It gives the Caradysh casus belli and reason to attack immediately with a massive undead army when most of our empire is focused on food production and in the middle of a little ice age.

Also, war is not inevitable and the Caradysh are not that evil. The Caradysh have always been open to diplomacy with us, they got their lowland territory by offering food instead of conquering and saved tens of thousands of peoples lives, and we can get a lot of good values from them. Making friends with them is a lot easier than beating them in a war.