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Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

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CV12Hornet said:
Vincennes achieved that by making the belt really, really short. As in, only long enough to cover the machinery spaces.
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According to Friendman's book on US cruisers, the belt on the New Orleans class was not just covering the machinery spaces, it became internal from the machinery bulkheads forwards and aft to cover the magazines. Rather than follow the hull lines.

CV12Hornet said:
Compare that to the Hipper-class' armor belt:
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Hah. I like where they 'estimate' 4" armor on her side. That's a war era piece of guesswork documentation. The class's belt continued forward the main battery at 40mm, and aft at 20mm save for 70mm over the steering compartment. This is not really impressive, and neither is the 80mm main belt itself.

CV12Hornet said:
Vincennes had thicker armor, but not a whole lot of armored buoyancy and the low placement of the magazines, to protect them from shellfire, rendered them badly vulnerable to torpedoes. Could the Hipper-class stand to have concentrated the armor better? Sure. No need to take the belt entirely to the ends of the ship. But there is something to be said for having more protected buoyancy.
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True, but for 4250 additional tons (i.e. 40+% more displacement!) we should expect some return.

CV12Hornet said:
Of course, a lot of it was also simply less experience on the part of the Germans for designing ships to tight tonnage limits, too.
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They solved this by adhering to the limit on paper only. When you break the limit by 40% it's not an accident.
 
Gosu said:
According to Friendman's book on US cruisers, the belt on the New Orleans class was not just covering the machinery spaces, it became internal from the machinery bulkheads forwards and aft to cover the magazines. Rather than follow the hull lines.

Hah. I like where they 'estimate' 4" armor on her side. That's a war era piece of guesswork documentation. The class's belt continued forward the main battery at 40mm, and aft at 20mm save for 70mm over the steering compartment. This is not really impressive, and neither is the 80mm main belt itself.

True, but for 4250 additional tons (i.e. 40+% more displacement!) we should expect some return.

They solved this by adhering to the limit on paper only. When you break the limit by 40% it's not an accident.
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Conceded - it was the only information I could find, and I also didn't know that about the New Orleans class' armor.
 
Gosu said:
True, but for 4250 additional tons (i.e. 40+% more displacement!) we should expect some return.
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Well Prinz Eugen survived Operation Crossroads and the only reason she sank was because a Salvage team couldn't be brought to her in time. Plus because she was very radioactive. However that might be because she was about 1,200 yards away from the point of detonation for both nukes. Also one of the Admiral Hipper class Heavy Cruisers was lost because a British Tallboy Bomb hit her, granted it was a Tallboy bomb, something like that would sink an Essex class effortlessly. However the Admiral Hipper class Heavy Cruiser, could they have been a little better? Certainly. But were they respectable ships as it was? Yes they were rather respectable. Certainly a match for the American Treaty Heavy Cruisers.
 
Thorthemighty said:
Well Prinz Eugen survived Operation Crossroads
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No, it sank her because the damage could not be fixed due to contamination from the bomb.

Thorthemighty said:
Also one of the Admiral Hipper class Heavy Cruisers was lost because a British Tallboy Bomb hit her
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Really. You can source that it was a Tallboy?

Thorthemighty said:
Certainly. But were they respectable ships as it was? Yes they were rather respectable. Certainly a match for the American Treaty Heavy Cruisers.
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Except in armor, armament, reliability, radar, range, ...
 
Shroobmaster said:
Yamato could probably beat an Iowa one on one in good weather. Most battles between equals are decided by the setting.
(Discounting crew experience.)
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Actually, the Iowas were designed to be a foil for the Yamato-class. I also have seen a picture, though I can't seem to find it again, that showed a hull piece that was hit by an Iowa-class's gun. Hole was bigger than my torso.
 
Burning Baron said:
Actually, the Iowas were designed to be a foil for the Yamato-class. I also have seen a picture, though I can't seem to find it again, that showed a hull piece that was hit by an Iowa-class's gun. Hole was bigger than my torso.
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I know what picture your talking about, but alas the Mark 7 was very comparable to the 40cm/45 Caliber Type 94 Naval Rifle. At 30 kilometers, according to the USN following the Empirical Formula a 3,219 pound Type 91 APC projectile will cleave through 14 inches of side armor or 7 inches of deck armor. Sad thing is the Iowa's armor could only stand up to 16in/45 Caliber Mark 6 Naval Rifles slinging Mark VIIIs, not it's own rifles slinging that ammunition. Which means a Yamato would certainly be able to penetrate an Iowa class Battleship.
 
The particular piece of armor tested was the 26-inch frontal armor for one of the Shinano's 18-inch turrets. This was the thickest armor ever made for a warship and it was speculated that the Yamato's armor was impervious to the 16-inch shells of American battleships. The U.S. Navy shot it point blank with a 16-inch shell. The resulting impact penetrated and ripped the armor apart. While this showed that a 16-inch shell could penetrate the Yamato's armor, it's unlikely that it would have done so at distance. It's important to note that this heavy armor only covered certain parts of the Yamato, not the entire vessel. The piece of armor tested by the navy is now on display at the Washington Navy yard.
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Link is here. A little bit of an Ameriwank, but the info is true. Here's the photo.
 
Burning Baron said:
Link is here. A little bit of an Ameriwank, but the info is true. Here's the photo.
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That is impressive. But their's one problem! Yamato has a slight range advantage over the Iowa class, by like four or five kilometers I think. Which means, Yamato under the right conditions can start firing before an Iowa can start firing. Plus if a Yamato catches an Iowa at night, it will likely kick Iowa's ass, particularly if she is sailing in formation with other warships, her radar has no Friend or Foe identification capability. Plus the Japanese were really good at Night Battles.
 
Iowas are Fast Battleships for a reason. Speed advantage, and slimmer profile makes for a maneuverable platform. However, this derail has gone on long enough. We are her to read/discuss Kongou after being adopted by FDR. Back (hopefully) to our regularly scheduled program.
 
Warning: Warning
  • Staff Post
    • warning
    @CV12Hornet, take a warning for marginal behaviour for this post here. I understand you were upset and irritated by @Thorthemighty's behavior but that sort of thing is detrimental to the general level of discourse in this thread.

    @Thorthemighty, please take some time to word your posts better so that it's clear what you're trying to talk about, and please do some research before you post so that this thread doesn't devolve into "everyone starts ripping apart @Thorthemighty's ideas in a brutal manner." That sort of thing isn't fun to read through and it probably isn't fun to experience.

    That brings me to my final point: Have a gentle reminder to remain civil to one another. Please don't dogpile or hurl insults. Have another gentle reminder to please stay on topic when it comes to this thread. That is to say, please discuss topics that are still related to the story.

    Please please please do not make me come back into this thread. Don't get me wrong, I like @Skywalker_T-65's story but I don't particularly want to have to start issuing less-friendly less-gentle reminders. Stay civil. Stay on topic. Keep reading. That is all.
     
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    • Gosu said:
    Most of those were bouncing the rubble of her decks in her final moments. After three 14" hits she was forced towards a port, after two torpedo hits she was out of control.
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    You are discounting the damage done by those hits.

    Two shells hole her fuel tanks, with one of those shells holing her engine room flooding it.

    The only ships that would not turn back would be the Yamatos and that's only because of leadership, looking at what happen to Kongo.

    Then said torpedo hit knocked bout her rudders and that same damage would have doomed an Iowa or a Yamato in similar situation.

    Only the Littorios had any ease with that type damage.

    Basically the Damage that Bismarck had took at Denmark straits would have seen every other battleship returning to base.

    Gosu said:
    No, it sank her because the damage could not be fixed due to contamination from the bomb
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    The navy said that if they, the ships there, had crews they would have survive cause could have patch the leakand probably gone on a suicade charge.
     
    Thorthemighty said:
    That is impressive. But their's one problem! Yamato has a slight range advantage over the Iowa class, by like four or five kilometers I think. Which means, Yamato under the right conditions can start firing before an Iowa can start firing. Plus if a Yamato catches an Iowa at night, it will likely kick Iowa's ass, particularly if she is sailing in formation with other warships, her radar has no Friend or Foe identification capability. Plus the Japanese were really good at Night Battles.
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    Umm... no...

    A few points here:
    1) There's a maximum range for gunfire... and then there's an effective range for gunfire. Although on paper the 18" guns could reach 40km, the chances of hitting anything on that range is slim to none. The longest range shots that hit from battleships is right around 24km... and that has to be considered partly a factor of luck.

    2) IJN likes to think they were good at night battles, but as the naval battles around Guadalcanal demonstrated, USN radar proved to be much more useful in night battles than any training doctrine that the IJN used that lacked radar. ESPECIALLY for big targets such as battleships, which naturally had a much larger radar return.
     
    Yeah, I'm fine with discussing Bismarck's capabilities since she's a character in the story. Getting into debates, not so much. There are threads for that and I would really appreciate not having to have a mod make a post in here again.

    Especially so close to page 100.
     
    Part of the reason for these conversations is the reality that different countries have different design approaches. European countries at the time were designing ships and aircraft that were supposed to fight, depending on the country, either in the north seas, the Mederterain sea, the Baltics, or the close Atlantic. These countries deseigned their ships with this as the opperational theatre and planned appropriatly. (I will come back to this) On the other side of the Atlantic, ie the US and Canada, had to design their planes and warships with the ability to if the worst happened and their Atlantic or Pacific was destroyed, to sail down the length of entire continent to the Panama Cannal, go through the Cannal, and sail back up the other side if needed. These ships were desgined with this as a potential journey that could happen if ordered. Every capital ship produced had to be able to complete this journey withount the ability to resuppy frequently. This would be a medium journey because they ships would need to arrive at a combat ready state with can't happen if your out of fuel. We see this with later war US designs more obviously. Any ship built in the States would need to reach Hawai withount a resupply to then be put on combat deployment. The trip from West Coast to Hawai is allready reaching the limits of a combat deployment for the European warships. We see this again with airplane desgins, fighters and bombers built in Europe durring the war would need to travel from Allied England to Axis Europe. In the early stages we will call this from England to France / Begium. This is around 200 miles so a long flight for European pilots would be a 400 mile round trip. In the US this is nothing!! It's the same as a round trip from NYC to Boston. That's a short distance for US pilots, a long trip is NYC to LA, thats almost 3 THOUSAND miles. Those distances just are not even posible for European planes...

    What were we talking about? And why are you all asleep?
     
    Wrong thread Baron. You're thinking of New Ironsides. Unless that was the previous thread you're in. But enough about that.
    Are you planning on doing anything special for the occasion?
     
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    Deidryt said:
    The longest range shots that hit from battleships is right around 24km... and that has to be considered partly a factor of luck.
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    Not true, in the book "The World Wondered" which gives a blow by blow account. The honor of longest shot made by a Battleship goes to Yamato. She opened fire at long range, and got a straddle with her 18.1 inch guns against USS White Plains CVE-66 from a range of 36,000 odd meters, then one of her salvos a while later, before she was obscured by smoke, had five shells straddle the Escort Carrier and another round went under her hull and exploded, just like it was designed, doing heavy damage to the CVE. The range was 34,000 odd meters. Plus Yamato didn't have radar, just four 15-meter wide optical rangefinders. Best an Iowa class can claim is a straddle against a Destroyer from a range of 30 kilometers and that was with Radar.

    The reason that the Americans thought the shots came from a Kongo class was because of the fact that we didn't know how big the guns on Yamato were. So a lot of times 18.1 inch shell damage was thought to be 14in shell damage.
     
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