Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

A shipgirl supporting a Naval landing is something to be feared. Hell, you could even use older Armoured Cruisers in that rule, or Predreadnaughts.

Were there any 128mm Flak guns in direct fire positions on the Atlantic Wall? Because a pre-dreadnought's belt is penetrable to a Jagdtiger's gun, if at point blank.
Majestic-class battleship - Wikipedia
230mm belt
I'm assuming the WoT 128mm gun on the JT is accurate, BTW.

The reason I'm not talking about the bigger guns firing at longer ranges is because at longer range hitting a shipgirl is a bad joke. However, 8-inch AP as used on Admiral Hipper's guns at 10km go through 9.5 inches of side armour, so... Germany 20.3 cm/60 (8") SK C/34 - NavWeaps
Sure, it'll fail to pen if a pred-dread is at an angle, but heavy field artillery using direct fire is still a danger to shipgirls who aren't all-or-nothing Standard Battleships or better.

Mind you, this only applies when the shipgirl absolutely has to get close and you are in ambush, instead of her shelling you to oblivion from over 10x as far as the 500 meters range you need for an ambush to not reliably be dodged.
 
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The Fast Carrier Task Force managed it quite well. And the second two are also a problem for battleships.
The Fast Carrier Task Force was entirely uncapable of doing that until very late in the war. You know, when all the Japanese planes were shot down and their industry was a firebombed set of ashes.
Were there any 128mm Flak guns in direct fire positions on the Atlantic Wall? Because a pre-dreadnought's belt is penetrable to a Jagdtiger's gun, if at point blank.
Majestic-class battleship - Wikipedia
230mm belt
There are *so many* problems with this.

First: Any 5" shell that can penetrate Utah's armor is going to have a miniscule bursting charge- and thus, be slightly more effective than a bee sting.
Secondly: Not all pre-dreadnoughts are the same? I'm not even sure why you brought up the Majestics, given that those are British, and thus entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

ALSO: Not all armor is the same. Not by a long shot. You can't just say "well, navweaps says it has this much penetration, so therefore it can penetrate this belt armor". There's a hell of a lot more that goes into it.

Even moreso: You want to hit a human-sized target on your first shot with artillery? On a direc
 
Were there any 128mm Flak guns in direct fire positions on the Atlantic Wall? Because a pre-dreadnought's belt is penetrable to a Jagdtiger's gun, if at point blank.
Majestic-class battleship - Wikipedia
230mm belt
I'm assuming the WoT 128mm gun on the JT is accurate, BTW.
I would not assume similar performance from the Flak 40 to the Pak 44. The latter was an all-new gun design that shared mostly just caliber with the AA weapon, and fired a heavier shell at higher velocity to boot. The Flak 40 fired on Soviet tanks during the Battle of Berlin to excellent effect, but I suspect that, just like the 152mm guns on the ISU-152, it was relying mostly on sheer kinetic and explosive force than any real armor-piercing qualities.

And at that point, it just becomes a sick joke to a battleship.
 
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Were there any 128mm Flak guns in direct fire positions on the Atlantic Wall? Because a pre-dreadnought's belt is penetrable to a Jagdtiger's gun, if at point blank.
Majestic-class battleship - Wikipedia
230mm belt
I'm assuming the WoT 128mm gun on the JT is accurate, BTW.

The reason I'm not talking about the bigger guns firing at longer ranges is because at longer range hitting a shipgirl is a bad joke. However, 8-inch AP as used on Admiral Hipper's guns at 10km go through 9.5 inches of side armour, so... Germany 20.3 cm/60 (8") SK C/34 - NavWeaps
Sure, it'll fail to pen if a pred-dread is at an angle, but heavy field artillery using direct fire is still a danger to shipgirls who aren't all-or-nothing Standard Battleships or better.

Mind you, this only applies when the shipgirl absolutely has to get close and you are in ambush, instead of her shelling you to oblivion from over 10x as far as the 500 meters range you need for an ambush to not reliably be dodged.

Also, I'd recommend not using World of Tanks as a reference, as they adjust statistics to balance their game.
 
Rule 4: Repeated derailment of a thread. Seriously, seriously repeated.
be slightly more effective than a bee sting.
Secondly: Not all pre-dreadnoughts are the same? I'm not even sure why you brought up the Majestics, given that those are British, and thus entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

As long as the damage is scaled down sufficiently, then everything is fine. Thank you for clearing that up.
As for why use a British pre-dread for the template for pre-dreads? Well, the invasion of Northern France is being launched from Britain, and they're likely to have a shipgirl program of their own. Also, it's the most numerous class and standard-setter of pre-dreads.

As for the pen levels... I'm assuming older armour is worse.

Even moreso: You want to hit a human-sized target on your first shot with artillery?

Part of why I said that the idiots in the Jagdtiger trying to make the shot had better be no more than 500m away.

...Then they get to spend their last moments watching the shipgirl slap a band-aid (invented in the 1920s) on if they actually hit her... and haven't got the memo to bail out and run as fast as they can yet, before the hilltop they're hull down behind gets removed.

Also, I'd recommend not using World of Tanks as a reference, as they adjust statistics to balance their game.

Googled it. Got this.


So about 240mm penetration. It seems WoT didn't quite lie too much (the stock JT gun has 246mm pen at 100m).

Since damage is scaled down, they can hurt a pre-dreadnought shipgirl, they can even penetrate her citadel, but they can't actually fully stop her unless they're firing railway guns and are absurdly lucky (i.e. actually score a direct hit on a human-sized target that can run sideways at world class sprinter speeds to dodge shells she sees/hears coming).

I hope the possibility of of employing pre-dreadnought (or even armoured cruiser) shipgirls on land has been resolved to everyone's satisfaction? I accept that you have convinced me that it's a great idea, and register my new understanding that damage is scaled down, is there anything else you'd like to explain to me?
 
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All I'm seeing is people trying to derail the thread with "HURR IMMA MAKE SPESHUL TECH" fantasies and trying to railroad OP into doing so.

This is an absolutely BASED evisceration of thread derailers.

The thing is, since its fairly obvious that Thompson knows things he shouldn't, if not outright fully outted by now, he WILL be asked a very wide range of questions.

There is a reason its called 'pick away at their brain'. They will ask all kinds of questions about damn near every single topic that they can imagine. If you've ever had to been through in-depth questioning by the police or a lawyer, those are kiddie grade quizzes compared to FBI/CIA/ONI/NSA/etc stuff.

So what is he can't give them e=mc^2 grade stuff, or tell them that the 7th screw on item X caused a promising turbine to fail & wasn't spotted until years later. If he can, more power to his memory (and may he suggest Jeopardy 40 years ahead of schedule). If he can't, well, he can't. And they'd be fully aware that they're asking the impossible for him to remember everything.

They'll still ask. It'd be dereliction of duty for them NOT to ask, even if they are fully aware many answers will boil down to, 'I don't know'.

For everything else that he faintly recalls, even fragments will at least point in the right direction(s). It might not, and never, help for THIS war, but getting a minor clue that snowballs as people start looking at the areas he mentioned, might allow for post-war leaps by perhaps 1-6 months early.

The torpedo issue though is extemely well known to any Pacific theater WW2 naval historian, and one answer that can & will work, is to mention what that sub commander did: yank the mag detector, and they worked just fine. It was squashed by Adm. Christie who ordered it put back in (which then immediately made them not work until 1943 iirc finally gave them the fix needed), but its a quick 'dumb' fix that can work.

A step BACK, instead of a step forward.

The fix for air-dropped torpedoes though is likely beyond him. He might clue them in and point them roughly towards getting the fix out a month or so earlier than IRL's fix, which gives the same/identical results of his OTL's fix. No more, and no earlier.

Asking for anything more involving technology, is hilariously OP and unrealistic in the extreme.

Tactics though? Well, he 'invented' the Thompson Weave (which, now that he's been outted, he might demand is retconned to be named after it's original creator, CMDR Thatch). So on that front, he'd be utterly invaluable. Especially once kanmusu start showing up more, as he would be fully knowledgeable as to how best to utilize warships condensed down into the form of a young woman, rather than having everyone stumble through inventing tactics.

Again, kanmusu tactics won't really help in this war, outside of Thompson's worst nightmare of kanmusu vs kanmusu that may occur, but would very likely shave off years of bloody, painful, learning, with a cost of hundreds of flag-draped coffins, that was required to get that experience against Abyssals.
 
The thing is, since its fairly obvious that Thompson knows things he shouldn't, if not outright fully outted by now, he WILL be asked a very wide range of questions.

There is a reason its called 'pick away at their brain'. They will ask all kinds of questions about damn near every single topic that they can imagine. If you've ever had to been through in-depth questioning by the police or a lawyer, those are kiddie grade quizzes compared to FBI/CIA/ONI/NSA/etc stuff.

So what is he can't give them e=mc^2 grade stuff, or tell them that the 7th screw on item X caused a promising turbine to fail & wasn't spotted until years later. If he can, more power to his memory (and may he suggest Jeopardy 40 years ahead of schedule). If he can't, well, he can't. And they'd be fully aware that they're asking the impossible for him to remember everything.

They'll still ask. It'd be dereliction of duty for them NOT to ask, even if they are fully aware many answers will boil down to, 'I don't know'.

For everything else that he faintly recalls, even fragments will at least point in the right direction(s). It might not, and never, help for THIS war, but getting a minor clue that snowballs as people start looking at the areas he mentioned, might allow for post-war leaps by perhaps 1-6 months early.

The torpedo issue though is extemely well known to any Pacific theater WW2 naval historian, and one answer that can & will work, is to mention what that sub commander did: yank the mag detector, and they worked just fine. It was squashed by Adm. Christie who ordered it put back in (which then immediately made them not work until 1943 iirc finally gave them the fix needed), but its a quick 'dumb' fix that can work.

A step BACK, instead of a step forward.

The fix for air-dropped torpedoes though is likely beyond him. He might clue them in and point them roughly towards getting the fix out a month or so earlier than IRL's fix, which gives the same/identical results of his OTL's fix. No more, and no earlier.

Asking for anything more involving technology, is hilariously OP and unrealistic in the extreme.

Tactics though? Well, he 'invented' the Thompson Weave (which, now that he's been outted, he might demand is retconned to be named after it's original creator, CMDR Thatch). So on that front, he'd be utterly invaluable. Especially once kanmusu start showing up more, as he would be fully knowledgeable as to how best to utilize warships condensed down into the form of a young woman, rather than having everyone stumble through inventing tactics.

Again, kanmusu tactics won't really help in this war, outside of Thompson's worst nightmare of kanmusu vs kanmusu that may occur, but would very likely shave off years of bloody, painful, learning, with a cost of hundreds of flag-draped coffins, that was required to get that experience against Abyssals.

As for tactics, what about putting in a good word for Hobart's funnies to get them to be taken up a tad earlier? I mean, the tech was there at the time, and all that was needed was a bit of creativity and someone thinking, "well, what if we tried to specialized utility mods for tank operations?" At the very least Dieppe might be a bit less of an utter disaster... ish...
 
The fix for air-dropped torpedoes though is likely beyond him. He might clue them in and point them roughly towards getting the fix out a month or so earlier than IRL's fix, which gives the same/identical results of his OTL's fix. No more, and no earlier.

He actually managed to get that one looked at before, so it might speed up those issues getting fixed a bit earlier.
 
As for tactics, what about putting in a good word for Hobart's funnies to get them to be taken up a tad earlier? I mean, the tech was there at the time, and all that was needed was a bit of creativity and someone thinking, "well, what if we tried to specialized utility mods for tank operations?" At the very least Dieppe might be a bit less of an utter disaster... ish...
Because what use have generals for admirals and their ideas?
 
Tactics though? Well, he 'invented' the Thompson Weave (which, now that he's been outted, he might demand is retconned to be named after it's original creator, CMDR Thatch). So on that front, he'd be utterly invaluable. Especially once kanmusu start showing up more, as he would be fully knowledgeable as to how best to utilize warships condensed down into the form of a young woman, rather than having everyone stumble through inventing tactics.
I find this unlikely. As far as we know, he's only out to a select group, and there's probably interest in keeping it that way.

Thus, no odd changes.
 
honestly there's still plenty of things on his side of the world to unfuck that are far more important than sticking his nose in D-day, like say a certain area of operations that saw a lot of fighting between August of 42 and December of 43 that could really use someone more competent than the three people that ran it during OTL.
 
Because what use have generals for admirals and their ideas?

Eh, more of a "someone is thinking of this right?" move. After all, just a suggestion of an idea might lead to generals actually thinking of the specifics in any direction, even if the result turns out completely differently from what the suggestion was aiming for. Hell, even one sentence is enough to at least get someone thinking. After all, some of the funnies were used in the Pacific right?
 
Frankly for the more basic improvements he probably anexed them to the fleet exercises he has been performing with his Task Force. Things like having his carriers as well as the destroyers escorting them do anti-bunker attack runs and having the marine detachement do mock radio calls for close support will have an effect when they try their first landings under heavy opposition since action in Tarawa showed that the Navy had a lot of room for improvement on their shore bombardment doctrine.

That said fundamental changes to doctrine and equipment take time and WoG is that any important change in vehicle construction won't be able to be implemented until way later in the timeline (probably not until the war is over) thanks to the limits of technology as well as the inertia of such a huge industrial effort and for the disemination of vital tactics and gear that limit is getting closer as well to that point when its not realistic for a corps sized unit to experiment new tactics counter to established doctrine, develop them to a point they will be useful, be issued new gear and retrained in its use.
 
If he knows anything about tanks, suggest you lot look up the Matilda II.
They tried to up gun several times, one time with a Cromwell turret, while they had a tank that had the same turret ring and the type of gun they wanted, in it.

Better ask yourself if he remembers how modern tanks have their tracks supported.
 
Obviously there needs to be some story distraction asap.

December 1941 in a certain Berlin conference room

As Guderian walked into the large conference room he could feel Kesselring's tension spike. Hitler of course dominated the room by scowling over the campaign map draped on the massive table. The fuhrer's mood was clear, and his displeasure seemed to embrace not only the generals attending but Hitler's own circle as well. Goering, Himmler and even Bormann looked like dogs that had just been whipped. Now isn't this a happy scene...

Albert Kesselring strode forward and addressed Hitler. "My Fuhrer, I wished to brief you on the final plans for Operation Herkules."

Hitler looked up from the map of the eastern front. "I will not throw fallschirmjager troops away in another parachute operation, there will be no Operation Herkules." Hitler sighed. "In light of your accomplishments with our ally in Italy, Feldmarschall Kesselring, I have need of your skills in Russia."

"Jawohl, my Fuhrer." Kesselring stepped back, cleared his throat, and then continued, "Who is to succeed me in Italy? There is much to brief them on."

"If I may Fuhrer, here is a list of potential candidates" Keitel quietly spoke as he handed a piece of paper to Hitler. Who promptly exploded.

"VON RUNDSTEDT?! That old fool! I just sacked him for retreating from Rostov!"

Keitel, you shit, von Rundstedt's a sick man and has wanted to retire for years. Let the man go home to his grandchildren for Christ's sake. He watched as Hitler turned his ire to every other name on the list. I'm sorry Albert, I promised to behave, but mein Gott the last thing I need is for the fuhrer to dictate how to run my theatre.

Guderian stepped forward. In his mind's eye he saw Kesselring's eyes go wide with a plea to remain silent. "I am willing to accept the posting, provided certain conditions are met."

Utter silence fell. Until Hitler broke it. "You are confident, Feldmarschall, why?"

"Because you have promoted me to Feldmarschall, if I lacked your confidence said promotion would never have happened. Like Feldmarschall Kesselring, I have cultivated a good working relationship with our Italian ally. Finally, I understand what desert warfare requires, thus no one new needs to be brought up to speed on how things work." Guderian held Hitler's gaze, while keeping up a pokerface.

Hitler leaned back from the table. "What would these conditions be?"

Success. Now it's merely negotiating price. Time to be bold Heinz. "My standing orders are to keep the British out of Italy and to restore a proper martial ability to our Italian ally. So far the relationship with the military of our ally has been cordial and proper coordination in operations is occurring. However, the post must be superior in authority to the Italian Commando Supremo as well as having authority over all military operations in the Mediterranean theater."

"A bold request to be named Commander-in-Chief of the area," Hitler said neutrally.

Guderian continued in the same tone, "The second condition is briefing you on certain events on how they will cause the desert campaign to be a defensive one. First off, the British will eventually stop finding idiots to put in charge and they are bound to come up with a competent or even brilliant general. Two, the limits of logistics dictates a defensive strategy from this point on. I recognize what I currently receive is as much as I can get. The East needs it more. Third, the Americans are now in the war. Eventually they will come to Britain's aid."

He took a breath. Now for the unpleasant part. "The final condition is to be allowed to prevent the Allies from invading Italy. Namely, the proper defense of Italy and North Afrika is to invest and fortify Tunisia. And if possible, could the Foreign Minister convince Franco to at least invade Gibraltar?"

"You want to invade Vichy possessions?" Hitler whispered dangerously.

Heinz shrugged, "If they gave permission for me to build fortifications and only invest them when the Americans invade North Africa would be fine. But the Americans will invade there. It's undefended and easy. Hell it's where I would invade if I were them. And the Vichy government is still French, they may obey us but they hate us. Vichy will officially complain all the while they tell the Americans the best roads through Algeria to go fight us at."

"So when do you expect this invasion then?" Reichenau snorted, after managing to have replaced his monocle when it had fallen after Guderian had first spoke.

"No later than twelve months from now. No sooner than eight I imagine. Hopefully you'll have defeated the Soviets by then, and I won't have to worry about getting the hammer and anvil treatment." He smiled.

After several minutes of silence Hitler spoke, "Gibraltar is a thorn. Ribbentrop will discreetly see if such a thing is possible. Do not hope for such. But very well, Feldmarschall Guderian, I appoint you to be Commander-in-Chief Sud. You have the authority in all military matters, including to override the wishes of our ally if necessary. You may draw up plans for Tunisia, but you are not to act on any plans until it is a clear and inevitable invasion by the Americans. Do you understand?"

"Jawohl fuhrer."
 
Dammit, don't give the Nazi's good ideas. At least not in the Mediterranean. The point is to stall the Soviets in the east, not the Allies in the west.

Franco's not going to budge. The Spanish Civil War was a freaking mess and he is still tamping down embers. Plus Spanish industry could barely supply his forces with poor quality munitions. During the Civil War, Spain had to import from Mexico to get any quality munitions. Gibraltar is not changing hands.

By not extending his supply lines to the breaking point trying to invade Egypt, Guderian is preserving his army. At the same time he can read a terrain map, and his back door is wide open if the US decides to visit Libya via French North Africa. He knows he's getting hammer and anvil'ed at some point, hence his quip to Reichenau about beating the Soviets within eight to twelve months. What Guderian really wants is to be set up in Tunisia and be able to come down into Algeria to fight a tank battle.

And how many folks would love to read a Guderian vs Patton (FIght!) battle?

;)
 
Even more importantly, Spains entirely dependant on oil from the US. Franco does something stupid, we drop the axe on his economy.
 
Franco's not going to budge. The Spanish Civil War was a freaking mess and he is still tamping down embers. Plus Spanish industry could barely supply his forces with poor quality munitions. During the Civil War, Spain had to import from Mexico to get any quality munitions. Gibraltar is not changing hands.
Not to mention, the only reason why Spain was not starving to death was due to massive food shipments from the United States, which Franco knows would be cut off if he joins the Axis. Thus It is very unlikely that Nationalist Spain will join the Axis, especially because a lot of Spanish Officials and Generals are pro-British due to large secret bribes from MI6.
 
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Were there any 128mm Flak guns in direct fire positions on the Atlantic Wall? Because a pre-dreadnought's belt is penetrable to a Jagdtiger's gun, if at point blank.
Majestic-class battleship - Wikipedia
230mm belt
I'm assuming the WoT 128mm gun on the JT is accurate, BTW.

The reason I'm not talking about the bigger guns firing at longer ranges is because at longer range hitting a shipgirl is a bad joke. However, 8-inch AP as used on Admiral Hipper's guns at 10km go through 9.5 inches of side armour, so... Germany 20.3 cm/60 (8") SK C/34 - NavWeaps
Sure, it'll fail to pen if a pred-dread is at an angle, but heavy field artillery using direct fire is still a danger to shipgirls who aren't all-or-nothing Standard Battleships or better.

Mind you, this only applies when the shipgirl absolutely has to get close and you are in ambush, instead of her shelling you to oblivion from over 10x as far as the 500 meters range you need for an ambush to not reliably be dodged.
Congratulations, you've managed to make a compartment somewhat less pleasant to be in when at sea. Now what?
 
Stop: Stop
stop




This is not the first time you've brought up or participated in this exact derail before, @Guardian54, to say nothing of your history of derails over a multitude of other topics. The OP has asked you to stop before, has posted WOG before that says this particular derail was going nowhere from the start—which you have previously acknowledged—and yet you have consistently refused to stop. Your behaviour in these posts is exceedingly disruptive to this thread. You have a pattern of behaviour of being exceedingly disruptive to this thread. And you do not appear to have taken any of the several Staff posts directed toward you addressing this pattern of behaviour to heart.

I am forced, therefore, to not only infract you for 25 points under Rule 4 but also ban you permanently from the thread.

 
We'll, I'm certainly not going to cry about that.

I think a lot of people are disregarding Thompson's knowledge, though- not of technology, but just... history.
I'd imagine he'd be pretty familiar with the naval battles of the war, what with commanding shipgirls and all, so he could give a ton of useful information just in the timing and location of stuff.

Codes, in particular, could also be incredibly useful- modern codes are far, far harder to break than any WW2 code, and operate on entirely different paradigms.

He also likely knows a whole lot about every navy's doctrine, organization, general deployments, and composition. He's likely heard of the temperments of various IJN commanders, as well as their ships capabilities.

Even without boosting technology in the slightest, the knowledge he likely brings to the table is massive.
 
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