Much of the hiring needed for the Grumman plant building the Avengers was done in 1941, a year in which Grumman's work force more than tripled. Sure, it's still hiring about a thousand people a month but keep in mind they were also working on producing the Wildcat and building the factory for the Hellcat. General Motors won't begin production of the Avenger until 1943.
I don't have the hard data on when the Avenger went into full service, but it was sometime between June and August, as they weren't on the carriers at Midway but were on the carriers covering the landings at Guadalcanal in late August.
Their were TBFs at Midway, six of them, part of VT-8. They weren't stationed on the Hornet but were based on the island of Midway. They suffered horrific losses making their attack on the Japanese Carrier Fleet. Out of the six bombers, only one made it home and it was so badly shot up that the plane never flew again.
This is something that a lot of people don't quite realise. The USN's systems with which it asserts its dominance today have their conceptual genesis in the 1940s and 1950s. The main difference between late Cold War tech and early Cold War tech is that the late Cold War tech finally works.
As an example, as early as the mid 1940s the Coast Guard was already trying to use helicopters for ASW and SAR work.
You know, I really don't have the time or motivation to deal with this, when I'm working six (long) days straight in Christmas retail. And am not remotely healthy enough for that.
If I have to make another WoG post when I get home, I will. I rather think the old one suffices, but whatever. Please go back to discussing, I dunno, if Tsundere (German) Heavy Cruiser Blucher is cuter or if @Old Iron bully Ari is. Or something.
Blücher is a) german, and hence superior (and more efficient), b) cruiser (isch), and hence cuter, c) not a standard, and hence not plodding along at a snails pace, and finally d) a Hipper class, and Hipper class is cutest class.
Bah, it took only two antique Austro-Hungarian torpedoes to sink her. On the other hand it took a one in a million hit to sink Ari. That shows the superiority of american ingenuity.
Well they'll definitely have the most hilarious public reactions.
"Seamen kept going into and out of me without my consent, 70 years ago! #metoo #BelieveHer"
So tweets some American destroyer escort i.e. lolibote or other, trolling Twitter sometime in the 2010s (note that #metoo was actually started in 2006)
We know that Irina Dunn made her "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" claim in 1970.
We don't see any Cold War shipgirls, even the Iowas mostly go by their first few crews...
While contemplating this ship timeframe issue and American girls at the same time, I concluded trolling twitter is very possible for an American shipgirl in the Abyssal War timeframe.
I can't imagine the USN not trying to get 1970s or later shipgirls unless there's a hard time limit of about 50 years since the bulk of their service, or until most of at least the first crew to be on the boat has died...
Given the crews of the 1970s were born late enough to have been teens when the Counterculture era was beginning...
Hoooo boy, if there's no hard limit and ship characters are mostly affected by their crews, are the governments concerned about the political implications a la "In Case of Hippies, Break Glass"?
...That rabbit hole went a lot deeper than I expected. This is worth investigating in another thread perhaps...
Bah, it took only two antique Austro-Hungarian torpedoes to sink her. On the other hand it took a one in a million hit to sink Ari. That shows the superiority of american ingenuity.
Yeah, shame it wasn't then-modern yank torpedoes that hit her. Would probably have survived those... Also, that was a command error, taking the ship up a fjord. Meanwhile, Ari got caught napping and was then knocked out by a bomb. Some might battleship. (And I doubt she would have handled a torpedo up her stern that much better ).
There are solutions to stupid commands (get new commanders). The solutions to being slow and out-dated are much harder.
Note: author of this post has mostly memetic knowledge of anything boat-related...
fashionable late staff communication While it seems that the situation has already resolved itself, allow me to make what @Skywalker_T-65 said above official.
The derail regarding tanks, nuclear reactors, airplanes, or what have you is over. If you want to continue that discussion, you can open a new thread for it. I can even move relevant posts there if you need.
Also, this is your regular public service announcement requesting to keep things civil. While things did not escalate, they did get a bit heated back in that discussion.
Bah, it took only two antique Austro-Hungarian torpedoes to sink her. On the other hand it took a one in a million hit to sink Ari. That shows the superiority of american ingenuity.
Since Japan is now down Kaga (and Hiryu's air group got mulched), what should the IJN's next move be with the Kido Butai and their naval assets deployed against the Pacific Fleet (obviously they are committing heavily to the Philippines and Southern Resource Area attacks). In short, should they act to try to take Wake before the USN can build it up as a springboard into the Central Pacific, or should they try to strike for the Coral Sea/New Guinea/Rabaul area to secure the Solomons?
Yes, I know the really smart move would be to say "We screwed up and we're screwed!" and start negotiating surrender terms, but that is not in the cards yet.
That would be the smarter move tbh and it's what they should have done to begin with, focused on the DEI, built Saigon into a bigger harbor/port/railhead and secured the Chinese coast to move the oil and whatnot up that way.
It's harder than sailing it through the ECS, but a lot less seaway to secure from submarines.
But this is Imperial Japan (reee gaijin go homu) so...
Since Japan is now down Kaga (and Hiryu's air group got mulched), what should the IJN's next move be with the Kido Butai and their naval assets deployed against the Pacific Fleet (obviously they are committing heavily to the Philippines and Southern Resource Area attacks). In short, should they act to try to take Wake before the USN can build it up as a springboard into the Central Pacific, or should they try to strike for the Coral Sea/New Guinea/Rabaul area to secure the Solomons?
Yes, I know the really smart move would be to say "We screwed up and we're screwed!" and start negotiating surrender terms, but that is not in the cards yet.
Neither. Securing the Dutch East Indies should be the priority. While Japan may have reserves of oil stockpiled, war burns fuel at a hell of a rate. I don't think there's such a thing as too much fuel in wartime. Securing the oilfields and refineries of the Dutch East Indies allows them the flexibility to pursue other objectives.
I agree with Raizo Tanaka that the attempt to cut off Australia and secure New Guinea and the Solomons is a waste. Fortify Rabaul, anchor the Southern defensive line there, instead of some outpost that's hanging out there like Guadalcanal. Deal with the Central Pacific when you've got the fuel reserves to bring more forces to bear.
It is very likely that the IJN goes for Wake Island Round Three. It's stupid, shortsighted, and an all around bad idea, but it's also totally in pattern with historical IJN thinking - seizing "defensive depth" at all costs.
It is very likely that the IJN goes for Wake Island Round Three. It's stupid, shortsighted, and an all around bad idea, but it's also totally in pattern with historical IJN thinking - seizing "defensive depth" at all costs.
The most probable reason is they consider Wake can be used as a base for long range patrol aircraft such as the Catalinas to scout and track Japanese fleet movement east of Marianas Island. If they want to meet USN fleet anywhere east of Marianas for the coveted decisive battle, the scout planes from Wake can blow away their plan to ambush the Americans. Anything that might jeopardize the element of surprise must be dealt with.
Another possible thing is Wake can be a refuelling stop for USN subs. For the Japanese, it's not about protecting their merchant fleet, but the American submarine screens, fuelled from Wake, can be a menace to their battle fleet.
The most probable reason is they consider Wake can be used as a base for long range patrol aircraft such as the Catalinas to scout and track Japanese fleet movement east of Marianas Island. If they want to meet USN fleet anywhere east of Marianas for the coveted decisive battle, the scout planes from Wake can blow away their plan to ambush the Americans.
Another possible thing is Wake can be a refuelling stop for USN subs. For the Japanese, it's not about protecting their merchant fleet, but the American submarine screens, fuelled from Wake, can be a menace to their battle fleet.
Which is a reasonable position, but not a good reason to prioritize Wake over securing their internal lines of supply. Hence why I consider the IJN's historical priorities... skewed.
Which is a reasonable position, but not a good reason to prioritize Wake over securing their internal lines of supply. Hence why I consider the IJN's historical priorities... skewed.
Which is a reasonable position, but not a good reason to prioritize Wake over securing their internal lines of supply. Hence why I consider the IJN's historical priorities... skewed.
Who knows. Maybe psychological? After all, Wake's location near the Japanese perimeter sticks out like a sore thumb, or the scab that you got the urge to scratch no matter what. Another thing is, when Philippines, Guam, Saipan, and Wake, all fall in a quick opening campaign on top of Pearl, the Japanese probably hoped that it might shock the Americans into backing out of the fight. It's a gamble, and Yamamoto is known for his gambling habit.
Neither. Securing the Dutch East Indies should be the priority. While Japan may have reserves of oil stockpiled, war burns fuel at a hell of a rate. I don't think there's such a thing as too much fuel in wartime. Securing the oilfields and refineries of the Dutch East Indies allows them the flexibility to pursue other objectives.
Oh I mean that they will obviously be putting their primary initial effort into the DEI. That was the whole point of the war for them, after all.
My question was what do they do with the forces available for operations in the Pacific versus South China Sea and Indonesia which are already committed there?
It is very likely that the IJN goes for Wake Island Round Three. It's stupid, shortsighted, and an all around bad idea, but it's also totally in pattern with historical IJN thinking - seizing "defensive depth" at all costs.
True, especially if they think that they 'sank' Saratoga who was last seen on fire and fire is what killed Kaga. I can see Yamamoto thinking of another attack on Wake to lure the surviving USN carriers to their doom ala Midway. Well once the Kido Butai is put back together and ready for service.
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