Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

Alright, let's all cool off a little bit. I'd rather not have my thread locked.

Fair enough. I figure the next chapter should produce clarity whether Kaga's headed for the bottom, the breakers, or a long stay in a drydock as they put her back together.

Assuming that the explosion throwing body/ship parts onto the decks of the escorts was not immediate, the escorts would have moved closer to provide aid for Kaga and Arare. Take off the emperor's portrait and wounded, try to fight the fires, evacuate the command staff and so on. Also if there was a brief delay in the sequence of events between the bombs hitting and the explosions, the USN aircraft would have left the scene rather than hang around and get shot up by the CAP.

I think we can assume that Kaga is either mortally wounded and dying, or crippled for the foreseeable future.
 
Alright, let's all cool off a little bit. I'd rather not have my thread locked.

I agree. Sorry for posting again before I saw you'd posted. Say, have you examined literature that was used to back up 1930s Bullshito in Japan, like Hagakure? Fun reading, eh? (Just two yes/no questions here)

Fair enough. I figure the next chapter should produce clarity whether Kaga's headed for the bottom, the breakers, or a long stay in a drydock as they put her back together.

Assuming that the explosion throwing body/ship parts onto the decks of the escorts was not immediate, the escorts would have moved closer to provide aid for Kaga and Arare. Take off the emperor's portrait and wounded, try to fight the fires, evacuate the command staff and so on. Also if there was a brief delay in the sequence of events between the bombs hitting and the explosions, the USN aircraft would have left the scene rather than hang around and get shot up by the CAP.

I think we can assume that Kaga is either mortally wounded and dying, or crippled for the foreseeable future.

A non-immediate secondary explosion throwing ship parts onto escorts is a bad, bad sign and makes me think of Shoukaku's end when the back end of the hangar blew out...

So avgas pipes all over the hangar have burst and blown the hangar deck up. There are probably fires everywhere, and probably at least one major avgas tank is leaking from concussive damage to the seams, due to the tanks being part of the hull.

My prediction is an uncontrollable secondary explosion of the avgas stowage between 30 to 120 minutes after the bombs hit, followed by either fire spreading over time to the main magazines or a scuttling due to Little E bushwhacking Hiryu and forcing the Japanese into full retreat (assuming no second strike from Little E finishes Kaga off, as I predict the smaller Hiryu won't be able to withstand the damage of (estimated) at least one torpedo and at least two bomb hits).

By the time the Japanese can attempt Third Wake you can looka t a slightly revised version of my previous analysis.
Yorktown, Lexington, Enterprise, and Wasp would be available to meet them at one to one, along with an unsinkable hybrid battleship/aircraft carrier aka Wake Island. That's assuming Sara doesn't get patched up quickly enough to return in time for Third Wake, as she's suffered no major hull structural damage as far as I can tell (read: not as much as Yorktown did at Coral Sea).

If Sara is good and Hornet has worked up in time for Third Wake (most likely in April or even May 1942) then the Japanese if they were sensible would not even attempt it, because they would be rushing in with four fleet carriers against six and three-quarters (Wasp is that three-quarters, while Wake counts as one). But sensible and Imperial Japanese grand strategy are concepts perhaps not best mentioned in proximity without some negatives in between.
 
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You mean the analysis I and several others shredded to pieces?

You seem to have a personal vendetta or something. I advise taking internet foruming less seriously.

If you want to dispute USN having a numerical advantage in first-line fighters after this version of Pearl, please go ahead and do so
 
You seem to have a personal vendetta or something.
When you do nothing but express absolute hatred for Japan (and giving off the impression that it's based on more than just the atrocities committed by the Imperial government) and continue pushing ideas based off of video games rather than books and proper historical references, it's understandable why Hornet, a trained historian who works aboard a museum ship, would get a little miffed.
 
It's entirely possible a sailor or two would be blown clear. Especially if an escort ship was close enough to catch a near miss by a torpedo.

Well the escorts would have been within 8000-10000 meters of the carrier at a maximum in normal escorting position (as per Shattered Sword). So not all that far for a torp to run and nail Arare.

As I said, the moment that Sara's aircraft cleared the area, some of the destroyers would probably have moved closer to render aid to Kaga and Arare.
 
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the radios, meanwhile, weren't they kinda crap radios anyway? Regardless, fighter pilots having this "solo warrior mentality" is not exactly a uniquely Japanese

The radios had a tendency to catch fire, explode, or both when exposed to moisture, hard acceleration, shock, or any combination of the three. All of which are quite common aboard a fighter aircraft in the middle of the ocean.

And even when they weren't on fire or exploding, the frequency couldn't be adjusted, they were pretty low-powered, frequently just stopped working, and were pretty damned heavy.

Quite honestly, it doesn't take some kind of crazed Lone Samaurai to question the utility of such a... unreliable piece of equipment.
 
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My fridge-logic question about this: what happens to Kaga's shipgirl?

Given what happened to Utah, it's pretty goddamn likely that she's going to self-summon right fucking there. if -that- happens while they're still there, the Japanese are going to have a load-dropping moment when the shit hits their pants, but it might not happen for hours, or even days. Utah was already trying to connect with her crew, and pretty damn close to succeeding when she died. Kaga didn't even know the possibility existed, so that might push her 'respawn timer' back quite a ways.

What happens next is determined by two things, one of which is limited by the other: first: where does she respawn? right where she died, like Utah did? or back at harbor in Japan? if the latter, she's gonna have a shitton of explaining to do, and will probably see the sea again not for a very long time. Well, until she goes all "I am a Carrier, you don't have the -mass- to stop me!" and does a Koolaid-man on the wall.

If she respawns in the ocean where she died, what happens next is determined by who she meets first: if her fleet is still there, there's going to be a whole lotta "What the fuck is that girl doing? Why is she here? WHY IS SHE WALKING ON WATER?!" If the US fleet finds her first, well, she'll at least have other shipgirls to explain things to her. If -no one- finds her.... well, she can -try- heading back to land, but she'd be horribly wounded and probably take forever to get her bearings and make landfall -somewhere-. And where she lands will help determine what happens to her, depending on who she meets there.

I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing Kaga and Sara meet face-to-face sometime. ^^ "YOU! YOU KILLED ME!" "Fair's Fair, you almost killed my admiral!"
 
Given what happened to Utah, it's pretty goddamn likely that she's going to self-summon right fucking there.
She has nowhere near the holy rage that Utah felt, seeing her daughters being bombed with no way to defend themselves. ust being sunk is most likely not enough.

So my bet, is that Kaga, if she is that unlucky, will simply be sunk and the shipgirl gone, for lack of a better term.
 
She has nowhere near the holy rage that Utah felt, seeing her daughters being bombed with no way to defend themselves. ust being sunk is most likely not enough.

So my bet, is that Kaga, if she is that unlucky, will simply be sunk and the shipgirl gone, for lack of a better term.

Which would be a fucking shame, and I'd call Sky out on that. ^^ Besides, it'd serve as a point of commonality that would potentially allow for the USN and IJN to communicate in a way that isn't just with pointless suicide-by-Navy tactics on the part of the IJN in the later part of the war.

Depends entirely on how Kaga reacts to being 'rescued' by her hated enemies, of course, and her reactions to finding out that the US Navy -already knows- about shipgirls.
 
pushing ideas based off of video games rather than books and proper historical references

*Removed cause mod says so*

2. I did not learn of Poland-Lithuanian Commonwealth i.e. THE superpower of renaissance/early modern Eastern Europe until I played Europa Universalis 4. So I tend to accept well-researched/polished video games as reasonable references in a few specific fields (obviously, "bird mana", "paper mana" or "sword mana" are not in those fields).
On the other extreme, China in Age of Empires 2 does not get Block Printing (which they invented), Crop Rotation, or gunpowder units besides the bombard galleon, LMAO.

The radios had a tendency to catch fire, explode, or both when exposed to moisture, hard acceleration, shock, or any combination of the three. All of which are quite common aboard a fighter aircraft in the middle of the ocean.

And even when they weren't on fire or exploding, the frequency couldn't be adjusted, they were pretty low-powered, frequently just stopped working, and were pretty damned heavy.

This is new information to me. I thank you for providing it.

Rather curious that Japan should be so behind in radio technology given they were a leader in it in the inter-war era...
Yagi–Uda antenna - Wikipedia

Was it just an industrial limitation, or did tactical-level coordination not really pop up as an issue to their war planners?

My fridge-logic question about this: what happens to Kaga's shipgirl?

Kaga seems grim and resigned enough that she's unlikely to self-summon, especially as there's nothing to particularly stir up her rage.

One option to get away with getting rid of her for now is to have to fight her as Aircraft Carrier Princess later on.

Alternatively, when Thompson tries summoning in this world for the first time with Utah supervising, there is a great deal of "what the fuck". And then we apply "Defeat Means Friendship" trope.

Defeat Means Friendship - TV Tropes
Curiously, the cover image for that is everyone's favorite example of BEFRIENDING.
 
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Warning: DO BETTER
You seem to have a personal vendetta or something. I advise taking internet foruming less seriously.
do better @Guardian54, video games are not historical sources. Stop trying to cite them in arguments. And your repeated wild rants about 'Bullshito' are done. Next one gets points, because that's flying right into some uncomfortably racist territory. Stop.
 
Kaga isn't Shoukaku though. Both Zuikaku and Shoukaku were the first Japanese carriers who had at least some thought given to damage control from the very beginning of their design. Kaga, on the other hand, was a convert with from a battleship and hence was riddled with flaws. Given that Japanese DAMCON practices and training were poor, she's likely dead.

Even later construction with lessons learned isn't enough to save the ship. Look at what happened to Taiho during Philipine Sea
 
*sighs in sadness*
Not even late war tactics can completely negate the downsides of shitty early war torpedoes.

Actually, the downside was ALL aerial delivered torpedoes, no matter what delivered them. The best aerial delivered torpedoes were the Japanese Type 91s, but they had to be dropped from less than 100 feet and at a speed less than 150 knots. They also had to be dropped from level flight, and within 2,000 yards of their target. That makes the Kates, Nells, and Betty's that deliver them juicy targets.

The British got away with air dropped torpedoes, because they were fairly robust and their delivery aircraft, the Fairey Swordfish, could fly so low and slow that most AA gunnery on a ship couldn't believe they were being attacked by such antiques.
 
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Actually, the downside was ALL aerial delivered torpedoes, no matter what delivered them. The best aerial delivered torpedoes were the Japanese Type 91s, but they had to be dropped from less than 100 feet and at a speed less than 150 knots. They also had to be dropped from level flight, and within 2,000 yards of their target. That makes the Kates, Nells, and Betty's that deliver them juicy targets.

The British got away with air dropped torpedoes, because they were fairly robust and their deliver aircraft, the Fairey Swordfish, could fly so low and slow that most AA gunnery on a ship couldn't believe they were being attacked by such antiques.
Eh?

What about the late war Mark 13, with a drop envelope of "Yes"?

Mark 13 torpedo - Wikipedia
 
My fridge-logic question about this: what happens to Kaga's shipgirl?

Given what happened to Utah, it's pretty goddamn likely that she's going to self-summon right fucking there. if -that- happens while they're still there, the Japanese are going to have a load-dropping moment when the shit hits their pants, but it might not happen for hours, or even days. Utah was already trying to connect with her crew, and pretty damn close to succeeding when she died. Kaga didn't even know the possibility existed, so that might push her 'respawn timer' back quite a ways.

What happens next is determined by two things, one of which is limited by the other: first: where does she respawn? right where she died, like Utah did? or back at harbor in Japan? if the latter, she's gonna have a shitton of explaining to do, and will probably see the sea again not for a very long time. Well, until she goes all "I am a Carrier, you don't have the -mass- to stop me!" and does a Koolaid-man on the wall.

If she respawns in the ocean where she died, what happens next is determined by who she meets first: if her fleet is still there, there's going to be a whole lotta "What the fuck is that girl doing? Why is she here? WHY IS SHE WALKING ON WATER?!" If the US fleet finds her first, well, she'll at least have other shipgirls to explain things to her. If -no one- finds her.... well, she can -try- heading back to land, but she'd be horribly wounded and probably take forever to get her bearings and make landfall -somewhere-. And where she lands will help determine what happens to her, depending on who she meets there.

I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing Kaga and Sara meet face-to-face sometime. ^^ "YOU! YOU KILLED ME!" "Fair's Fair, you almost killed my admiral!"
Kaga dont strike me like a salty player who lost a match with someone and will rage on it.

IMO, she'll more like gonna respect Sara in terms of her pilot's skills and determination before declaring she'll going to beat her in another round to start off the rivalry...
 
Kaga dont strike me like a salty player who lost a match with someone and will rage on it.

IMO, she'll more like gonna respect Sara in terms of her pilot's skills and determination before declaring she'll going to beat her in another round to start off the rivalry...

As I said earlier, Thompson, back at Pearl and recovered, could manage to summon Kaga there, and she pledges her service (because captured ships can totally be pressed into service of their captors, though rarely is it a ship that was sunk before the capturing... cough CSS Virginia cough...)

...Wait a second... *looks at posted image of Sara and searches up WSG Sara's relative size* This sounds remarkably like this version of Sara will have a serious regret of not being the KanColle version, namely not being physically large enough to shield Thompson (IIRC the Pacific version should also have been large enough to physically occlude him?). But there'll also be another consequence.

Kaga's not the type. She died doing her duty to the best of her ability and knows it, clever surprises aside. She comes back, it'll be as a shipgirl highly motivated to become better.

Ah but Kaga might already be better in at least one way...

If Kaga is good-humoured, she'll later grab a tape measure, measure around her bust, measure around this Sara's bust, then give two thumbs up and an "I did it". (It's not obvious with the muneate, but the general agreement seems to be that Kaga is well endowed. It isn't impossible that her wide, fat battleship hull form out-bulges this Sara. If nothing else she's definitely thicker around the hips due to a stubby battleship hull versus a battlecruiser hull--and Wikipedia gives Kaga 0.2m more beam :p)

After finishing the trolling of everyone else, Kaga clears her throat and says "Now to become better in other ways than measurements... TEACH ME, SEMPAI!" (Saratoga commissioned 16 November 1927, Kaga 30 November 1929, hence Sara is Kaga's sempai)

Then again, KanColle Sara would have been physically imposing enough (skirt is equivalent to splinter plating in durability?) to shield Thompson completely from shrapnel, with only the overpressure wave ripping his lungs to bits, which would have meant less drama... oh dear, that makes it plausible for Thompson to be fatally wounded here anyhow...

Inb4 someone writes an omake of two sisters ships' sailors watching the ships argue about breast envy (i.e. the bustier one argues that it sucks to bounce so much, you can guess what the flat one thinks) while chatting to each other about how even for shipgirls, the grass is always greener on the other side. (Surely there is an American counterpart to the Akebono-Ushio relationship...)
 
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Then again, KanColle Sara would have been physically imposing enough (skirt is equivalent to splinter plating in durability?) to shield Thompson completely from shrapnel, with only the overpressure wave ripping his lungs to bits, which would have meant less drama... oh dear, that makes it plausible for Thompson to be fatally wounded here anyhow...

well... Sky's Counter part in HarryL's story already got ultimate marshmallow Hell already...
we dont need to suffocate one more counterpart with it...

although Sky might like it... :p
 
Which would be a fucking shame, and I'd call Sky out on that. ^^ Besides, it'd serve as a point of commonality that would potentially allow for the USN and IJN to communicate in a way that isn't just with pointless suicide-by-Navy tactics on the part of the IJN in the later part of the war.

Depends entirely on how Kaga reacts to being 'rescued' by her hated enemies, of course, and her reactions to finding out that the US Navy -already knows- about shipgirls.

At this point, why would the USN summon Kaga (or any other IJN shipgirl)? There are some major problems with that.

First off, the IJN and USN are at war, shooting each other. So if Kaga or Arare or another kanmasu wants to cause trouble to the USN, they can do a LOT of damage. In addition, some of the girls might have a small grudge against girls for sinking them (Kaga), or against enemies who sank their sisters (Tennessee for her dead sister California). Finally, Japan in 1942 is not culturally primed to the idea of surrender (the reverse, really) and it can be assumed that the girls are imprinting off the attitudes of their crew.

Second, Thompson is in no shape to discuss summoning Kanmasu since he is busy bleeding all over Sara's bridge. Even if he could do that, summoning Japanese shipgirls would raise a lot of eyebrows int he Navy and start questions he really does not want to answer.

Third, the Abyssals are presumably out there. If you summon the Kanmasu now, you may not have them available for later when you really need them to fight the Abyssals. For insstance to pick on Utah, if she takes fatal damage what happens to her? Either she is 'dead' and cannot be summoned to fight the Abyssals or she can be summoned again. If kanmasu can be summoned repeatedly, if one of the Axis powers finds out the secret of summoning they can repeatedly spam summons to inflict major damage on the Allies. Summon Kaga, send her on a Ten-go type suicide mission, and when Kaga is sunk, summon Kaga again....
 
well... Sky's Counter part in HarryL's story already got ultimate marshmallow Hell already...
we dont need to suffocate one more counterpart with it...

although Sky might like it... :p

It's not like his blue-haired Sara can't do plenty of it already.

Oh hey we just figured out why Thompson didn't die of shredded lungs from the pressure wave: His face was too firmly buried in Sara's chest for the pressure wave to reach into his airways.

...Wait, are we SURE Thompson isn't just suffering from lack of air due to marshmallow hell, instead of being knocked unconscious?

EDIT: Rated you Hugs cause of talking about marshmallow hell (i.e. a form of hug) obviously is suited to the Hugs rating :p

At this point, why would the USN summon Kaga (or any other IJN shipgirl)? There are some major problems with that.

Third, the Abyssals are presumably out there. If you summon the Kanmasu now, you may not have them available for later when you really need them to fight the Abyssals. For insstance to pick on Utah, if she takes fatal damage what happens to her? Either she is 'dead' and cannot be summoned to fight the Abyssals or she can be summoned again. If kanmasu can be summoned repeatedly

Summoning Kaga would be a complete and utter accident, coming after summoning California and other USN ships lost to date. as in a "Oi, why don't you try doing that summoning thing AGAIN with enough material to summon a battleship? Maybe it'll pull USS Washington out of the ether! Would be Wishy-Washy, no? *gets conked over head for terribad pun*" followed by "Ah... oops?"
Since Kaga thinks of herself as a ship, this is like a ship being captured, and captured ships being used by those worthy enough to capture them is tradition that goes all the way back to the time of rowboats ramming and boarding each other. Of course she presumably would be put to work somewhere less than critical, most likely with Utah watching, such as in moving heavy things around Pearl i.e. being a tugboat and harbour rescue staff, but still, it's something and prevents Japan from summoning her.

About the resummoning issue... how about a cooldown timeframe on the order of years (i.e. beyond relevance for this war)? And summoning a shipgirl in a country or area not particularly relevant to her ship hull costs noticeably more?
 
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About the resummoning issue... how about a cooldown timeframe on the order of years (i.e. beyond relevance for this war)? And summoning a shipgirl in a country or area not particularly relevant to her ship hull costs noticeably more?
I propose a better solution: wait for the tangled line of Fate and Destiny to move far enough for summoning to be relevant.

Sky's got this covered; there's no need for you to suggest ideas. Speculate, perhaps, but it is the height of arrogance to claim to understand a work better than its creator.
 
I propose a better solution: wait for the tangled line of Fate and Destiny to move far enough for summoning to be relevant.

Sky's got this covered; there's no need for you to suggest ideas. Speculate, perhaps, but it is the height of arrogance to claim to understand a work better than its creator.

...I was responding to someone fretting over how summoning works??

I dunno what makes you think I'm suggesting ideas to Sky, just telling someone they don't need to fret cause there are options other than what they listed...
 
I dunno what makes you think I'm suggesting ideas to Sky, just telling someone they don't need to fret cause there are options other than what they listed...

I was not responding to you, Guardian 54. Please desist.

As for the options, these are binary solution sets. To wit:

Kanmasu of another navy (IE Kaga) summonable? (Y/N)
IJN/KM/RM Kanmasu (IE Kaga) hostile to USN if summoned? (Y/N)
If Kaga hostile, can Kaga be restrained? (N) Seriously, how the hell do you keep a CV in the brig if she does not want to stay?
Will Axis intelligence learn about summonings and be able to perform their own from observation of USN summonings? (Y/N)
Can a Kanmaasu get summoned multiple times if killed as a spirit? (Y/N)

In order for any attempt to summon say Kaga to be a good idea, you need a very specific set of answers to this. Specifically, in order, Y, N, N, N. Since you have no idea of the answers before trying it, prudence would dictate you don't try it unless you have no other choice, certainly unless you have better reasons than 'the power of friendship' to try to recruit someone in a major war where the stakes for both sides are existential.
 
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