Changing Destiny (Kancolle)
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Sir_Gaea
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Well, this was definitely worth rereading the entire story for. One thing that is food for thought is Sara's ability to communicate with her Chil, I mean Pilots. On one hand they can get updates from and relay needed information to the Admiral. On the other hand they hear her screams of pain when the enemy gets through. Sara eventually might realize how many of her children were lost flying against Kaga, but the pilots likely feel that there was no price too high to pay in hitting the enemy once they heard that scream.
Also, Lil'E? Watch out, there is still the Hiryuu out there, and she is likely baying for American Blood because you and Sara dare stand in the way of Japanese Imperialism. Be sure to explain some things to her, would you? I believe you know what topics to discuss.
Also, Lil'E? Watch out, there is still the Hiryuu out there, and she is likely baying for American Blood because you and Sara dare stand in the way of Japanese Imperialism. Be sure to explain some things to her, would you? I believe you know what topics to discuss.
For a more realistic note on Kaga's Damcon issues, I briefly poked my copy of Kaigun. 
I would also consult Shattered Sword, but I loaned that to a relative and haven't gotten it back yet.
Early JP Carriers have hangers enclosed by storerooms. This makes the booms from bombs detonating in the hanger worse, makes it harder to shove ordinance, etc over the side away from fires, and makes it impossible for escorts to easily assist in hanger fire fighting. And Kaga had that bizarre multiple flight deck design for quite a while, so that did no favors to avgas and ordinance placements either.
There's a good reason the carriers burned down at Midway, and it doesn't bode well for poor Kaga. Also, I doubt Kaga purged her avgas lines, given that no one OTL thought it was an issue until after Coral Sea, where the lack of purging lines was considered a factor in the loss of Lexington. IIRC. I'd have to reread the story to see if it was introduced earlier for USN, but that doesn't necessarily mean IJN figured it out sooner as well.
I would also consult Shattered Sword, but I loaned that to a relative and haven't gotten it back yet.Early JP Carriers have hangers enclosed by storerooms. This makes the booms from bombs detonating in the hanger worse, makes it harder to shove ordinance, etc over the side away from fires, and makes it impossible for escorts to easily assist in hanger fire fighting. And Kaga had that bizarre multiple flight deck design for quite a while, so that did no favors to avgas and ordinance placements either.
There's a good reason the carriers burned down at Midway, and it doesn't bode well for poor Kaga. Also, I doubt Kaga purged her avgas lines, given that no one OTL thought it was an issue until after Coral Sea, where the lack of purging lines was considered a factor in the loss of Lexington. IIRC. I'd have to reread the story to see if it was introduced earlier for USN, but that doesn't necessarily mean IJN figured it out sooner as well.
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One of the downsides of the girls being visible and audible to their crew. Of course, this is going to reinforce Sara's strike packages determination to make the Japanese pay for hurting their Sister Sara.
Oh hell. Kaga's about to get Midway'd hard. She hasn't spotted the Slow But Deadlies coming in from above her. Hiryuu looks to be lucky because she has not been spotted yet.
The Devastators are not the major threat here. Unfortunately for the IJN, they are the threat that the CAP is engaging, which is going to give the killing stroke a chance to drop on them.
And Torpedo
... Because Bombing Three just wrecked Kaga.
Well, let's see how bad it is. There are only two fire mains on board her, so one or both may have failed from blast and bomb damage, the fireproof curtains to separate the hangar deck into sections may or may not be functional, and she probably cracked her avgas tanks/lines. Also Kaga's emergency generator for the fire pumps is located in her upper hangar deck and may have been disabled (it was at Midway).
Kaga is probably dead. Arare is probably several hundred yards away at minimum, and the explosion is throwing parts of Kaga onto her, which suggests that there was a catastrophic fuel-air explosion like what historically happened to her at Midway when her avgas lit off. Now, if Tamon-maru has brains, he will cut his losses and try to tow Kaga clear, but instead he is likely going to try to destroy the American carriers...which sets up a duel to the death between the Flying Dragon and Little E.
And the day is getting even worse for the Japanese. Looks like we will have a Third Wake sooner or later, with all the disruption that it will cause at Naval HQ in Tokyo.
Poor Sara. Poor Poor Sara.
True. At least barring a catastrophic second strike on Sara or an I-Boat running into her, she will survive the battle and make it back to port.
I think right now that poor Enterprise feels very far from being a lucky ship right now. It has to be killing her by inches to watch members of her family get hurt. Of course, the tragic thing is that in order to protect Sara, E will probably have to sink Hiryu to keep her family safe. Which she will no matter the cost to her if it keeps her family and Dadmiral Halsey safe..
This whole section was heartbreaking. At least Thompson and Sara are in good hands and should be able to get the care that they need.
Incidentally I feel for Akagi, and I suspect that the news of this will shock Zuikaku to her core since Zuikaku would have looked up to Kaga.
It was introduced to the USN thanks to Thompson. He remembered the lessons of Coral Sea very well.
If their DC has the tools surviving the bomb explosions. The fire mains on Kaga were iron piping, so more vulnerable to shock than the USN steel ones and she only had two loops (one port, one starboard) plus her emergency fire main pump was in the upper hangar deck. If she loses water pressure in the fire mains thanks to shock damage on the plumbing and/or her fireproof curtains are unable to subdivide the hangar deck to contain the fires (either from damage to the curtains/roller paths or because fires in multiple comparments), Kaga is in real trouble.
The fact that you had people/bodies and parts of the flight deck getting blown far enough away to hit the escorting destroyers is a really bad sign.
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Oi, Creative Assembly is generally pretty good about modelling equipment at least roughly correctly. For example, velites get a smaller round shield and all the Roman heavy infantry have typical Roman tower shields.
Meanwhile shields are utterly absent from Shogun 2.
Bushido very possibly prevented them from looking too hard and going "well what if a bomb hits the ship nearby and some rivets/welds pop?" at some point. It's not liek they don't already have some knowledge of how explosives going off near something can give shock damage and burst seams (see Tsushima)
Then there's the sunk cost problem, yes, but Lex and Sara were built with more sensible avgas stowage and without multiple flight decks due to less initial focus on all-out offense (multiple launch decks are for getting the attack off as fast as possible).
Also, the torpedo bulges on the cruisers were as much (if not more) for stability and freeboard as they were for mitigating torpedo/mine damage.
You know I actually didn't notice this point since none of the American pilots really noticed it. I assumed the pieces of flight deck being blown several hundred meters were identified by "Oi, there's a piece of wood decking with paint on one sideover here, and it's not the colour of our deck..."
If it was anything more significant, then hell yes, Kaga blew up.
That being said, how were MEN blown onto the decks of nearby destroyers? Because an explosion able to throw them that far would be chucking chunky salsa instead. I'm guessing Sky just didn't grasp the distances between boats in a fleet?
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Luminous
God Save The Queen
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The fact that you can't be bothered to spend ten seconds to even look up the proper terminology is telling towards your attitude of actual research.
Not to mention that your "example" is probably the most basic fucking aspect of the Roman Army. What's next; "They used guns in Company of Heros, so it's pretty much entirely accurate for how the armies were."?
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Burning Baron
This position needs more entrenching.
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Even in the wake of the coup, when MUH COPROSPERITY SPHERE really got going, nobody was that pants.
You've never seen Barham exploding, have you?
Botes git blowed up real gud.
It's entirely possible a sailor or two would be blown clear. Especially if an escort ship was close enough to catch a near miss by a torpedo.
Wobulator
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Do you have a source?
Because without that, you're just talking out of your ass.
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Possible? It's happened before, one of the survivors from the HMS Queen Mary was in Q-Turret and was thrown clear of the ship by the blast that sundered her hull apart.
Was he thrown hundreds of meters, though, or was he far enough from the blast that it was only like getting hit by a truck?
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He was inside Q-Turret and was thrown clear, the damage sustained though was incredible: Stationed inside 'Q' turret, Midshipman Jocelyn Latham Storey survived and reported that there had been a large explosion forward which rocked the turret, breaking the left gun in half, the gun breech falling into the working chamber and the right gun coming off its trunnions. Cordite in the working chamber caught fire and produced poisonous fumes that asphyxiated some of the turret's crew. It is doubtful that an explosion forward could have done this, so 'Q' turret may have been struck by the second shell.
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Zero pilots would remove their radios (i.e. the means why which one squadron member sighting an enemy aircraft formation can inform the others) to make their aircraft lighter and better at glorious Bushido duelling dogfighting.
They were, in fact, that pants on head tunnel vision.
Arare need only be somewhere within 1000m if the drop was done at 500-800m for this to not be ridiculous. The Mk 13 is cited on Wikipedia as having a max range of 5800 meters so... golden BB.
And if you are suggesting someone can be accelerated by explosive pressure wave far enough to reach more than a couple hundred meters at most and not be dead, God help you.
Zero pilots removing radios tells us enough about their attack and solo warrior mentality that you can ascribe almost any degree of stupidity to Bushido and have it be believable.
Then there's the lack of armour, self-sealing fuel tanks, etc. and the low ammo count on the 20mm guns that all fit the "SKILL" ideology too well to be dismissed.
Also, having giant bombs and oxygen generators strapped to the decks of your heavy cruisers... and WILDLY overestimating the effectiveness (hit rate) of such weapons.
Besides, their Bushido literature LITERALLY extols the virtues of plunging "recklessly toward an irrational death".
How far was he thrown? Thrown clear of the ship could mean just like 100m depending on direction.
But a destroyer escorting a carrier in combat formation is probably rather further away than 300m i.e. one capital ship hull length, to reduce ramming risk (either the DD rips a hole in the CV's side, or the CV runs it over and ends up with a lot of high explosives and compressed oxygen being crushed under its bow...).
In other words, they're not going to survive being thrown, let alone
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Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
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I'll note there have been cases of men being thrown great distances from explosions before. I'll also note I never said that their bodies were even intact when they landed. Or, for that matter, when they were thrown clear.
Dramatic license, more than me not knowing how explosions work. Which I know very well.
(Hello childhood again)
Also, the formation had been thrown out of order by the sudden turn Kaga tried to make to avoid the bombers. Those ships were much closer than they should have been.
I'm about to have lunch, so I'll reply to anything else after that.
Dramatic license, more than me not knowing how explosions work. Which I know very well.
(Hello childhood again)
Also, the formation had been thrown out of order by the sudden turn Kaga tried to make to avoid the bombers. Those ships were much closer than they should have been.
I'm about to have lunch, so I'll reply to anything else after that.
So, no citable sources then? Okay.
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1. Well, this is true, though usually it would have been narrated as "chunks/fragments of meat" if that was what was intended, for dramatic reasons...
2. That's fair, though I suspect Arare's captain would have reacted quickly enough to also begin the turn before his ship is hit. Because those torpedoes are slower than an IJN DD's top speed... wait... he probably should have been hit AFTER the dive-bombers hit Kaga???
You don't need citable sources for the claim "On Earth, the Sun rises in the East", because there has been more than enough empirical evidence that backs it up.
In addition to all the evidence we are well familiar with (e.g. inability to keep up with pilot attrition due to elitism, hell very possibly not enough training to keep up with operational (NOT COMBAT) attrition in poorly equipped forward airfields, more design choices than I care to name in a debate with you, etc.), I recently learnt from Sakazaki Freddy (illustrated in Danbooru post 1724036) that they had hand reading and phrenology by a master from Todai as the final test for pilot trainees in 1936. So yes, they ARE that drunk on BULLSHITO.
(Nobody called him out on that claim, so I presume it accurate. It certainly fits with the 2% graduation rate the Japanese boasted about)
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CompassJimbo
Where’s Your North?
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Or perhaps he didn't want to focus too much on the gorey aspect of the battle. Yes, those men landing on Kaga's escorting DDs are more like random pieces of them, but it doesn't exactly have to be spelled out.
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This seems reasonable.
I was looking at the level of detail he put into the Marines fighting on Wake, and what he wrote for Sara's bridge, and thinking "this doesn't add up" but I suppose the strike on Kaga was done more zoomed out...
CV12Hornet
Riter.
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The lack of armor, self-sealing fuel tanks, and all that was driven less by a desire for maneuverability than the combination technical/operational requirements of exceptional range on an engine with less than 1000 horsepower. The first of which proved immensely useful throughout the war and the latter of which was something everyone besides the US struggled with.
The Japanese were not alone in mounting torpedoes on their heavy cruisers; the US did it for a while, even! The oxygen propulsion did result in much greater effectiveness of the torpedoes, especially on destroyers. Ad finally, everyone overestimated the effectiveness of their weaponry. When it came to torpedoes, the US was frankly worse than Japan in this regard, because Japanese torpedoes worked.
Ad the radios, meanwhile, weren't they kinda crap radios anyway? Regardless, fighter pilots having this "solo warrior mentality" is not exactly a uniquely Japanese thing.
Yeah, no, that's not how this works. You're conflating something self-evident and easy to prove with fucking cultural psychology. Find a goddamn text that says it was a MAGIC BUSHIDO HANDS thing rather than legitimate tactical and operational requirements or common cultural factors, and then get back to us if you want to continue this.
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Wobulator
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Do you have a source on this.
Or, you know, they needed a plane that had good range and maneuverability and couldn't build good engines, so they reduced weight by reducing armor and ammo.
You know, one or the other.
EDIT: rip ninja carriers
Luminous
God Save The Queen
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I think I get why you're widely despised. You are making a claim with no evidence on what might even be considered racial grounds. Find a source, or fuck off.
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
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Alright, let's all cool off a little bit. I'd rather not have my thread locked.
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Everything is a trade-off. What you choose in the trade-off is influenced by both operational requirements and cultural factors. Observe, for example, Lex and Sara never having multiple launch decks.
Hagakure Quotes by Yamamoto Tsunetomo
The Japanese would like a word, and I mean THE authority in terms of literature on Bushido would like a word. You can be sure in the Bullshito era of the late 1920s to 1930s that anyone who was anyone in Japan would have had to read Hagakure if not know it by heart.
And a lot of what they did seemed to fit the "How to Samurai" pointers in that book.
"There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. There will be nothing else to do, and nothing else to pursue. Live being true to the single purpose of the moment."
AND "Be true to the thought of the moment and avoid distraction. Other than continuing to exert yourself, enter into nothing else, but go to the extent of living single thought by single thought."
As far as I can tell in both quotes he's telling the reader "don't daydream about the past or future if you can't handle the here and now!"
It seems to me that Imperial High Command took it as "long term planning? We don't need no long term planning!"
"Even if it seems certain that you will lose, retaliate. Neither wisdom nor technique has a place in this. A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams."
As far as I can tell, this is supposed to mean "If you're going to get rekt anyhow then fuck the other guy up as much as you can. Don't just lie down and die!"
I don't think I need to say how Imperial High Command took it.
"Bushido is realized in the presence of death. This means choosing death whenever there is a choice between life and death. There is no other reasoning."
AND "If a warrior is not unattached to life and death, he will be of no use whatsoever. The saying that "All abilities come from one mind" sounds as though it has to do with sentient matters, but it is in fact a matter of being unattached to life and death. With such non-attachment one can accomplish any feat."
...I'm sorry, but I can't read this any other way than "Lemming Train".
Yes, the book does have some good advice, like "'Matters of great concern should be treated lightly.' Master Ittei commented, 'Matters of small concern should be treated seriously.'" which basically means "Don't obsess over large things, nor neglect little things." but most of it is very VERY easily warped from Bushido (i.e. East Asian version of Chivalry with people being treated as rather more expendable due to larger populations) to Bullshito (The "samurai mystique" Japan got into in the late 1920s onward)
Such as this: "If one is but secure at the foundation, he will not be pained by departure from minor details or affairs that are contrary to expectation. But in the end, the details of a matter are important. The right and wrong of one's way of doing things are found in trivial matters."
I read it as "If you make sure your fundamental skills are good, you'll be able to adapt to things, but it is in the details of how you adapt that shows your nature as a person"
Imperial HQ likely saw "If we are sure we are starting from a position of advantage, then all setbacks are exceptional or simply bad luck" AKA "LEEROY JENKINS!!11!!"
I get the feeling Imperial HQ just didn't notice "Tether even a roasted chicken."...
Going down the quotes listed, there's "No matter if the enemy has thousands of men, there is fulfillment in simply standing them off and being determined to cut them all down, starting from one end." which Imperial HQ probably took as "The enemy will oblige you by not all coming at you at once" when it's more likely intended to be "do not get scared shitless just because you are outnumbered, figure out a way to deal with the enemy one at a time, much as a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step."
And then there's "Victory and defeat are matters of the temporary force of circumstances. The way of avoiding shame is different. It is simply in death." which is just "dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori"
AND "Be true to the thought of the moment and avoid distraction. Other than continuing to exert yourself, enter into nothing else, but go to the extent of living single thought by single thought."
As far as I can tell in both quotes he's telling the reader "don't daydream about the past or future if you can't handle the here and now!"
It seems to me that Imperial High Command took it as "long term planning? We don't need no long term planning!"
"Even if it seems certain that you will lose, retaliate. Neither wisdom nor technique has a place in this. A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams."
As far as I can tell, this is supposed to mean "If you're going to get rekt anyhow then fuck the other guy up as much as you can. Don't just lie down and die!"
I don't think I need to say how Imperial High Command took it.
"Bushido is realized in the presence of death. This means choosing death whenever there is a choice between life and death. There is no other reasoning."
AND "If a warrior is not unattached to life and death, he will be of no use whatsoever. The saying that "All abilities come from one mind" sounds as though it has to do with sentient matters, but it is in fact a matter of being unattached to life and death. With such non-attachment one can accomplish any feat."
...I'm sorry, but I can't read this any other way than "Lemming Train".
Yes, the book does have some good advice, like "'Matters of great concern should be treated lightly.' Master Ittei commented, 'Matters of small concern should be treated seriously.'" which basically means "Don't obsess over large things, nor neglect little things." but most of it is very VERY easily warped from Bushido (i.e. East Asian version of Chivalry with people being treated as rather more expendable due to larger populations) to Bullshito (The "samurai mystique" Japan got into in the late 1920s onward)
Such as this: "If one is but secure at the foundation, he will not be pained by departure from minor details or affairs that are contrary to expectation. But in the end, the details of a matter are important. The right and wrong of one's way of doing things are found in trivial matters."
I read it as "If you make sure your fundamental skills are good, you'll be able to adapt to things, but it is in the details of how you adapt that shows your nature as a person"
Imperial HQ likely saw "If we are sure we are starting from a position of advantage, then all setbacks are exceptional or simply bad luck" AKA "LEEROY JENKINS!!11!!"
I get the feeling Imperial HQ just didn't notice "Tether even a roasted chicken."...
Going down the quotes listed, there's "No matter if the enemy has thousands of men, there is fulfillment in simply standing them off and being determined to cut them all down, starting from one end." which Imperial HQ probably took as "The enemy will oblige you by not all coming at you at once" when it's more likely intended to be "do not get scared shitless just because you are outnumbered, figure out a way to deal with the enemy one at a time, much as a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step."
And then there's "Victory and defeat are matters of the temporary force of circumstances. The way of avoiding shame is different. It is simply in death." which is just "dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori"
That being said, I AM extremely biased against weeaboos.
Katanas are EXCELLENT pieces of equipment... for the crappy iron ore they had to work with. A scimitar/sabre/dao/most other curved blades forged with better starting materials are far superior for hacking away from horseback than the sharpened slab that is a katana (and yes I know polearms are even better, but weapons do break or get stuck and lost in battle) and when fighting on foot it's pike blocks all the way for massed infantry (observe that ashigaru did use these tactics) or use a sword and shield in combination (should likely slow down bodkin arrow equivalents enough to not punch through your armour). As a multi-role tool a katana is an excellent weapon, but even as a multi-role tool there are better options than basically a sharpened steel bar. Many Japanophiles tend to have problems with this.
A Grossmesser or Kriegmesser is better any day of the week.
My claim of Japan not using shields for cultural reasons is from a google search on why Japan didn't use shields after realizing "hey wait..." when playing Shogun 2. It is possible that there's confirmation bias there given most of the Japanese samurai literature quotes I've seen are rather "Gambler Lemming Train", like I previously stated.
Therefore, I must now presume I took the results of that google search with some confirmation bias.
Thank you for pointing this out.
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CV12Hornet
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Japanese classics are not evidence unless you can draw a proper causal link between the texts and actual Japanese actions during WWII. And your ass (because every causal link you have drawn is blatant speculation on your part) is not a recognized secondary source, so find something else.
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Individual pilots throwing out what can be considered vital equipment, up to and including weapons and radios, to lighten their aircraft is in no way a uniquely Japanese characteristic in WW2. The Zero lacked armor as a design choice, it was a long range maneuverable fighter, adding armor would deduct range and maneuverability. Lacking much in the way of armor was a typical design choice Japan made, but by no means was it absent in all of their aircraft.
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