Remove ads

Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

Reader mode
jwolfe_beta said:
Well Kaga is badly mangled but potentially repairable assuming those fires don't set anything off.

Even if the ship does survive, it's going to take a while to put back together.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Just the AvGas/fumes in her lines ought to be enough to finish her off with Japan;s memetically bad DC. On the other hand, they could get lucky.

And, yeah, even if she survives, she's going to be out of the war for months.
Thorthemighty said:
So Thompson will probably survive, and he's getting the one award he probably didn't expect. The Purple Heart.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The one award you'd really prefer not to get. OTOH, given the way the strike on Kaga went off, there are probably going to be a lot of attaboys getting spread around over the success of the 'hammer and anvil' strike doctrine, so he's likely going to end up with a medal for that right alongside Hallsey.
 
Vanigo said:
Her hanger deck is on fire; the IJN doesn't have a very good track record with that. Of course, it presumably wasn't full of planes and bombs, which should help.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Speaker4thesilen said:
Just the AvGas/fumes in her lines ought to be enough to finish her off with Japan;s memetically bad DC. On the other hand, they could get lucky.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Indeed, I do believe that her hangars were indeed empty and the Avgas lines left intact. IRL, the conflagration from the Avgas rupturing and leading to the massive ammo cookoff was effectively one relatively rapid sequence of events. It wasn't something that took hours to build up and blow, so if it did happen it would have been mentioned.

Given the fires have no mention of avgas, munitions, damage to the fire suppression systems, and the damage being confined to the flight deck, Kaga appears to have gotten quite lucky. Barring a future engagement, she's safe. She'll get fixed up and back in the war, just like Sara.
 
Darth Herobrine said:
Wouldn't be surprised if he got a good tonsil cleaning from Sara too. Three guesses which he feels is the better award.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That said, not surprised that the Devastators got butchered, again. But here's the thing, Halsey doesn't know about Hiryu, which means he could get a nasty shock of his own when Japanese planes come out of nowhere.

Speaker4thesilen said:
Just the AvGas/fumes in her lines ought to be enough to finish her off with Japan;s memetically bad DC. On the other hand, they could get lucky.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I would like to argue that when you had a crew that knew what it was doing when it came to DAMCON, Japanese Carriers could survive an absolutely incredible pasting. Shoukaku took three one-thousand pound bombs during Coral Sea and later during her 2nd pasting she took six 1000-pounders. She survived an utterly nasty hammering. The only reason she was lost was because the submarine that bagged her, the torpedoes hit her when she was spotting a strike and the secondaries started almost immediately and in that sort of situation even memetically good American DAMCON was pushed to it's absolute limits, we know because Franklin got hit once when she was spotting a strike and it nearly put her on the bottom just because of all the secondaries that tore her apart.
 
Always Late said:
Indeed, I do believe that her hangars were indeed empty and the Avgas lines left intact. IRL, the conflagration from the Avgas rupturing and leading to the massive ammo cookoff was effectively one relatively rapid sequence of events. It wasn't something that took hours to build up and blow, so if it did happen it would have been mentioned.

Given the fires have no mention of avgas, munitions, damage to the fire suppression systems, and the damage being confined to the flight deck, Kaga appears to have gotten quite lucky. Barring a future engagement, she's safe. She'll get fixed up and back in the war, just like Sara.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
we also haven't gotten her POV yet, just a pilot flying several hundred, if not 1000 plus feet overhead.
 
I'd say Hiryu is screwed if it comes to a slugfest, more so if the Japanese "rush recklessly toward an irrational death" like their traditional books on How To Samurai instruct.

Does IJN doctrine purges avgas lines between strikes? Because if they don't Kaga is dead from avgas venting followed by secondary explosion. If they do then she's just in the yards for six months to a year.

The true miracle here is that the torpedoes actually worked. Then again Thompson did prove that they weren't working so presumably there have been changes.
 
Thorthemighty said:
That said, not surprised that the Devastators got butchered, again. But here's the thing, Halsey doesn't know about Hiryu, which means he could get a nasty shock of his own when Japanese planes come out of nowhere.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Uh, what does that have to do with Sara shoving her tongue down our time-traveling hero's throat as soon as he wakes up?
 
Guardian54 said:
I'd say Hiryu is screwed if it comes to a slugfest, more so if the Japanese "rush recklessly toward an irrational death" like their traditional books on How To Samurai instruct.

Does IJN doctrine purges avgas lines between strikes? Because if they don't Kaga is dead from avgas venting followed by secondary explosion. If they do then she's just in the yards for six months to a year.

The true miracle here is that the torpedoes actually worked. Then again Thompson did prove that they weren't working so presumably there have been changes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The Mk 13s did work somewhat. IOTL, Shoho got torn up by 7 that hit her during Coral Sea.
 
Last edited:
Guardian54 said:
I'd say Hiryu is screwed if it comes to a slugfest, more so if the Japanese "rush recklessly toward an irrational death" like their traditional books on How To Samurai instruct.

Does IJN doctrine purges avgas lines between strikes? Because if they don't Kaga is dead from avgas venting followed by secondary explosion. If they do then she's just in the yards for six months to a year.

The true miracle here is that the torpedoes actually worked. Then again Thompson did prove that they weren't working so presumably there have been changes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Purging Avgas lines takes time, and not something you can do when an American CAG pulls a "surprise MF" on you. of course this doesn't matter because Kaga's avgas tanks were repurposed compartments that almost certainly failed when the bombs, or even near misses, hit.

as for the Mk.13's. The original mk.13 mod 0 batch actually did work, and Sara and Lex carried those for the first 6 months of the war. It was the second production batch that added all the stupid pointless stuff that failed.
 
So.... If ever kaga and sara ever meet as kanmusu... I have a feeling that they'll have quite a friendship....

Considering that Sara just "befriended" kaga as Kaga did to her. :p
 
Guardian54 said:
I'd say Hiryu is screwed if it comes to a slugfest, more so if the Japanese "rush recklessly toward an irrational death" like their traditional books on How To Samurai instruct.

Does IJN doctrine purges avgas lines between strikes? Because if they don't Kaga is dead from avgas venting followed by secondary explosion. If they do then she's just in the yards for six months to a year.

The true miracle here is that the torpedoes actually worked. Then again Thompson did prove that they weren't working so presumably there have been changes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Historically the MK13 Mod0/1 got the gentle entry it needed in between one in six and one in four drops. If at least six TBDs made it to their drop point, at least one torpedo working is more-or-less guaranteed.

Also, no, the IJN didn't purge their avgas lines when not in use. But depending on the location of the hits, it could just start a localized fire, which even IJN DC can handle without too much trouble.

Spectre said:
Purging Avgas lines takes time, and not something you can do when an American CAG pulls a "surprise MF" on you. of course this doesn't matter because Kaga's avgas tanks were repurposed compartments that almost certainly failed when the bombs, or even near misses, hit.

as for the Mk.13's. The original mk.13 mod 0 batch actually did work, and Sara and Lex carried those for the first 6 months of the war. It was the second production batch that added all the stupid pointless stuff that failed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The Mod 0 also needed a fairly gentle water entry, having a drop envelope of 50 feet and 110 kt. It wasn't until the Mod 10 with the pickle barrel and shroud that the Mark 13 would be truly reliable.

Can't see any reason the Mod 0 would have been more reliable from what I found on Navweaps... Can you give me a source on that?

Navweaps said:
Mod 1

Improved tail, strengthened propellers, rudders moved in front of the propellers
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Thorthemighty said:
I would like to argue that when you had a crew that knew what it was doing when it came to DAMCON, Japanese Carriers could survive an absolutely incredible pasting. Shoukaku *snip*
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Kaga isn't Shoukaku though. Both Zuikaku and Shoukaku were the first Japanese carriers who had at least some thought given to damage control from the very beginning of their design. Kaga, on the other hand, was a convert with from a battleship and hence was riddled with flaws. Given that Japanese DAMCON practices and training were poor, she's likely dead.
 
obssesednuker said:
Kaga isn't Shoukaku though. Both Zuikaku and Shoukaku were the first Japanese carriers who had at least some thought given to damage control from the very beginning of their design. Kaga, on the other hand, was a convert with from a battleship and hence was riddled with flaws. Given that Japanese DAMCON practices and training were poor, she's likely dead.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Good point, you never know.
 
Jrandom said:
The Mk 13s did work somewhat. IOTL, Shoho got torn up by 2 that hit her during Coral Sea.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Interesting.

Spectre said:
Purging Avgas lines takes time, and not something you can do when an American CAG pulls a "surprise MF" on you. of course this doesn't matter because Kaga's avgas tanks were repurposed compartments that almost certainly failed when the bombs, or even near misses, hit.

as for the Mk.13's. The original mk.13 mod 0 batch actually did work, and Sara and Lex carried those for the first 6 months of the war. It was the second production batch that added all the stupid pointless stuff that failed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Very interesting about the torpedoes.

Their awful design of building avgas tanks into the hull structure stems from their culture. Thinking back on playing Total War: Shogun 2, there were no shields on the infantry even when shields would make massive amounts of sense. After looking this up on Google, it seems Japan did not use shields because not getting killed when hit by bad luck was apparently incompatible with their idea of "skill" (sounds like the Zero).
Arguments that say a katana can cut through a wooden shield are the same as talking about axes. They rely on mounting the shield on an unyielding surface, completely unlike in actual combat when even an axe would have a hard time breaking a well-made wooden shield, so a shield would be very useful when fighting on foot with one-handed or even 1.5-handed swords like katanas can easily be used as.
Would be hilarious to see stories where Hideyoshi succeeds in landing full armies in Korea... and have to deal with the logistics of extended inland campaigns... and face the heavy crossbows of the Chinese and Koreans lolpwning his samurai's armour (Japanese bows were weak in comparison to Chinese bows and they didn't use the sorts of heavy crossbows China employed. Though Ming China had massed arqebus armies, heavy crossbows were still very common).

I would argue Kaga is going to die. Avgas leaks starting local fires in the hangar distracts the crew from the damaged and leaking avgas tanks, and then one spark...

The author is clearly echoing like how Lexington sank OTL.
 
Last edited:
Skywalker_T-65 said:
They had to fly low and slow to drop their payload, and a blind monkey could hardly fail to hit a plane such as that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
*sighs in sadness*
Not even late war tactics can completely negate the downsides of shitty early war torpedoes.

Skywalker_T-65 said:
Beneath them, Kaga frantically pulled into a starboard turn. Even as she made that turn, forcing her escorts to do the same, a massive explosion rocked the destroyer Arare. Flames and water shot into the sky. With a tortured groan of crumpled steel, Arare began to settle into the water.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Oof. At least Arare's death will be a quick one, mixed blessing that it is.

As for Kaga, yikes. She's going to be out of action for quite a while assuming she doesn't succumb to the fires burning, or some secondary effect from those fires (like say avgas or munitions exploding) en route to home.

And Thompson? Almost certainly internal injuries, likely a severe concussion or other TBI as well. Sara and Little E are going to have a stressful few days until Thompson's treatment progresses.

Thank you for the update, difficult though it was.
 
mind you we're also assuming Enterprise doesn't land a few punches of her own since we haven't seen her air group at all yet.
 
Spectre said:
mind you we're also assuming Enterprise doesn't land a few punches of her own since we haven't seen her air group at all yet.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

"Hi Hiryu! Bye Hiryu!" Probably applies.

While Kaga is echoing OTL Lexington thanks to her built-into-hull-structure avgas tanks, Hiryu is probably going to be more like Kido Butai's OTL ends at Midway.
 
Guardian54 said:
Interesting.



Very interesting about the torpedoes.

Their awful design of building avgas tanks into the hull structure stems from their culture. Thinking back on playing Total War: Shogun 2, there were no shields on the infantry even when shields would make massive amounts of sense. Therefore, Japan did not use shields because not getting killed when hit by bad luck was apparently incompatible with their idea of "skill" (sounds like the Zero).
Arguments that say a katana can cut through a wooden shield are the same as talking about axes. They rely on mounting the shield on an unyielding surface, completely unlike in actual combat when even an axe would have a hard time breaking a well-made wooden shield, so a shield would be very useful when fighting on foot with one-handed or even 1.5-handed swords like katanas can easily be used as.
Would be hilarious to see stories where Hideyoshi succeeds in landing full armies in Korea... and have to deal with the logistics of extended inland campaigns... and face the heavy crossbows of the Chinese and Koreans lolpwning his samurai's armour (Japanese bows were weak in comparison to Chinese bows and they didn't use the sorts of heavy crossbows China employed).

I would argue Kaga is going to die. Avgas leaks starting local fires in the hangar distracts the crew from the damaged and leaking avgas tanks, and then one spark...

The author is clearly echoing like how Lexington sank OTL.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And I say, which is more likely? That the Japanese designers for Kaga were slavishly following some sort of MAGIC BUSHIDO HANDS idiocy when putting in the avgas tanks, or that that was just a consequence of Kaga being not only the third carrier Japan had ever designed, not only a rush job after the earthquake wrecked Amagi, but basically being a flight deck and hanger plopped down onto a battleship hull.

I mean, for chrissakes, if this MAGIC BUSHIDO HANDS thing you're pushing was true, you'd think the Japanese wouldn't put any armor at all on their ships. Or not worry so much about torpedo hits as to build an integrated hull bulge into their cruisers.

Oh, one more thing: lol crossbow wank. Over here in reality, the Japanese relied far more on arquebuses than bows in Korea, and even more on melee with spear and sword - to very good effect, in fact, at least against the Korean forces. Not to mention the fact that archery, historically, is pretty bad at actually killing people.
 
Now I want to see things from Kaga's point of view. I can't help but imagine that when Kaga gets towed to port some Japanese ships are going to rant about the honorless gaijin sneak attack only for Kaga to shut them down with a decisive strike:

Kaga: Honorless attack? I see, like what we did in Operation Z?
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top