Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

One of those ideas then that's good in theory but sucks in practice?

Pretty much, although the designers and crew were very much into unexplored territory with Kaga.

No one had run an aircraft carrier in combat before, and as such some design flaws would crop up, like the infamous exhausts turning Kaga's crew compartments into an oven. Until Midway...or in this case Second Wake, no one on the IJN side realized what kind of a major threat fire would be to aircraft carriers. Also, the IJN could hardly pull a third or more of the Kido Butai into drydock to do a major refit and rebuild now. To their credit, some of the flaws of the earlier carriers were addressed with the Shokaku and later Unryu classes.
 
Pretty much, although the designers and crew were very much into unexplored territory with Kaga.

No one had run an aircraft carrier in combat before, and as such some design flaws would crop up, like the infamous exhausts turning Kaga's crew compartments into an oven. Until Midway...or in this case Second Wake, no one on the IJN side realized what kind of a major threat fire would be to aircraft carriers. Also, the IJN could hardly pull a third or more of the Kido Butai into drydock to do a major refit and rebuild now. To their credit, some of the flaws of the earlier carriers were addressed with the Shokaku and later Unryu classes.

I'd wager that, at least they learned from their mistakes. Plus if I remember right, the Hiryuu and Soryuu had better designed bunkers for their avgas compared to Kaga and Akagi.
 
No one had run an aircraft carrier in combat before, and as such some design flaws would crop up, like the infamous exhausts turning Kaga's crew compartments into an oven.

I'm curious why, when they remodelled the ship, they didn't change this to a goddamned funnel since the Americans and British clearly were operating planes just fine with funnels for exhaust, and the original side vents were experimental anyhow.

I'm speaking of when Kaga was brought in to be remodelled in 1934-1935.

Or is this just from a "beatings will continue until morale improves" approach to ergonomics? After all, they had "fighting spirit injection sticks" to issue beatings with...

I'd wager that, at least they learned from their mistakes. Plus if I remember right, the Hiryuu and Soryuu had better designed bunkers for their avgas compared to Kaga and Akagi.

You may want to look for a better reference point on that. Building avgas tanks into the hull structure is, as far as I am aware, second in "how to be vulnerable to bomb damage" only to putting them outside the citadel entirely.

EDIT: Without doing something intentionally comical in design, that is.
 
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I'm curious why, when they remodelled the ship, they didn't change this to a goddamned funnel since the Americans and British clearly were operating planes just fine with funnels for exhaust, and the original side vents were experimental anyhow.

I'm speaking of when Kaga was brought in to be remodelled in 1934-1935.

Or is this just from a "beatings will continue until morale improves" approach to ergonomics? After all, they had "fighting spirit injection sticks" to issue beatings with...

Hey, Guardian, ever tried looking at pictures of Kaga during WW2? She was converted to the same downward-facing stack as Akagi during that 1934/35 refit, which worked quite acceptably.
 
I'm curious why, when they remodelled the ship, they didn't change this to a goddamned funnel since the Americans and British clearly were operating planes just fine with funnels for exhaust, and the original side vents were experimental anyhow.

I'm speaking of when Kaga was brought in to be remodelled in 1934-1935.

Or is this just from a "beatings will continue until morale improves" approach to ergonomics? After all, they had "fighting spirit injection sticks" to issue beatings with...
Hey, Guardian, ever tried looking at pictures of Kaga during WW2? She was converted to the same downward-facing stack as Akagi during that 1934/35 refit, which worked quite acceptably.

Because the side funnels worked well enough in the IJN's eyes? Akagi had a side funnel; Hiryu and Soryu had side funnels; Shokaku and Zuikaku had side funnels...

Here's Shokaku's commissioning photo with her side funnels clearly visible:

The problem Kaga had was with the exhaust plumbing/crew compartments inside the hull versus the actual funnel placement.

Complaining about Japanese carriers having side/downward pointing funnels is like complaining about German battleships going with twin 15" gun turrets, or British carriers having the armored flight deck and enclosed hangars. It is a valid design choice that worked for them.
 
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Hey, Guardian, ever tried looking at pictures of Kaga during WW2? She was converted to the same downward-facing stack as Akagi during that 1934/35 refit, which worked quite acceptably.

Ah, noticed it on Kaga's image on Wikipedia. That makes sense then. For some reason I thought it was "some crew quarters were placed between the hangars and fume piping to prevent too much heat in the hangar, and were uninhabitable as a result" and that this was never remedied.

This is not helped by Wikipedia's specific wording: "Another drawback was that the heat of the gases made the crew's quarters located on the side of the ship by the funnels almost uninhabitable." I assumed this condition persisted post-remodel due to the many KanColle fan comic jokes about Kaga the grill...

The problem Kaga had was with the exhaust plumbing/crew compartments inside the hull versus the actual funnel placement.

Looks like I'll have to find structural diagrams to try to understand why the IJN placed their crew quarters there. Given Yamato's air conditioning, they clearly well understood that ergonomics improved work efficiency. And the Americans did not have commensurate complaints IIRC...

It is a valid design choice that worked for them.

Minor nitpick: The number of ravings you see on naval discussion boards about the stupid weak German turret foreheads would like a word with you about those twin 15" turrets on, say, Bismarck, and the triple 150mm turrets on the Konigsbergs, Leipzig and Nurnberg...
 
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I haven't forgotten about her, incidentally. There's a reason that was a numbered chapter and not a side story, and it's not just because I'm the resident Pasta Fanboytm​

Oh this gonna be good when that bus gets back. I mean, we've got German (WW1/pre-WW1?) and (one) American shipgirls running around now. So perhaps the pasta's aren't far behind. One can hope.

I also look forward to the eventual chapter where Queen Elizabeth (Or was it Warspite? I gotta find that one post of yours again that had the three snapshots) slaps Churchill's cigar out of his mouth. :D
 
I'm curious why, when they remodelled the ship, they didn't change this to a goddamned funnel since the Americans and British clearly were operating planes just fine with funnels for exhaust, and the original side vents were experimental anyhow.

I'm speaking of when Kaga was brought in to be remodelled in 1934-1935.

Or is this just from a "beatings will continue until morale improves" approach to ergonomics? After all, they had "fighting spirit injection sticks" to issue beatings with...



You may want to look for a better reference point on that. Building avgas tanks into the hull structure is, as far as I am aware, second in "how to be vulnerable to bomb damage" only to putting them outside the citadel entirely.

EDIT: Without doing something intentionally comical in design, that is.


I can think of two things immediately. One is cost. The Kanto Quake and the rebuilding would have cost over tens of billions in dollars of today. Not all that much money left after all that. I can see them taking all sorts of shortcuts just to get Kaga and Akagi launched on schedule. Secondly, about the 1934-35 rebuilds. Having your two biggest carriers out of action for an extended amount of time, even for necessary rebuilds, has to be balanced between getting necessary work done, and the strategic naval situation. Look at what the Royal Navy decided about taking Hood out of service for 3-4 years for her necessary rebuild.

So given those circumstances, it makes sense to do just enough to modernize their carriers, and get them back into service, while minimizing the costs.
 
Minor nitpick: The number of ravings you see on naval discussion boards about the stupid weak German turret foreheads would like a word with you about those twin 15" turrets on, say, Bismarck, and the triple 150m

That's a problem of the faceted armoring, not a criticism of the decision to use twin 15" mounts.

Complaining about Japanese carriers having side/downward pointing funnels is like complaining about German battleships going with twin 15" gun turrets, or British carriers having the armored flight deck and enclosed hangars. It is a valid design choice that worked for them.

The value of the enclosed hangars on RN carriers is... questionable, particularly considering the cost in air wing. Navweaps has an excellent article on the subject.
 
I can think of two things immediately. One is cost. The Kanto Quake and the rebuilding would have cost over tens of billions in dollars of today. Not all that much money left after all that. I can see them taking all sorts of shortcuts just to get Kaga and Akagi launched on schedule. Secondly, about the 1934-35 rebuilds. Having your two biggest carriers out of action for an extended amount of time, even for necessary rebuilds, has to be balanced between getting necessary work done, and the strategic naval situation. Look at what the Royal Navy decided about taking Hood out of service for 3-4 years for her necessary rebuild.

So given those circumstances, it makes sense to do just enough to modernize their carriers, and get them back into service, while minimizing the costs.

Oh yes, and this was also the timeframe where the IJN was rebuilding the Kongos extensively (Haruna 1933-35, Kirishima 1934-36, Kongo 1935-37, Hiei 1937-39). So you have four capital ships being refitted into FBBs as well which is an additional major cost at the same time you are rebuilding CarDiv 1.

EDIT-Also, this should go without saying, but 1934-35 was during the Great Depression after the USA instituted the Reciprocal Tariff Act of 1934 which would have had an impact on the Japanese economy and therefore naval budgets.

The value of the enclosed hangars on RN carriers is... questionable, particularly considering the cost in air wing. Navweaps has an excellent article on the subject.

True, and I won't argue that the RN armored decks did not cause some issues with their plane capacity. I will argue that that was a valid carrier design philosophy that worked for the RN, although it came with some opportunity costs. Same is true for the Japanese carrier side funnels, it might not be the best design of a carrier, but it produced functional ships. Kaga was the only ship that had the problems with cooking the crew quarters, which implies that they fixed that problem in later designs.
 
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The value of the enclosed hangars on RN carriers is... questionable, particularly considering the cost in air wing. Navweaps has an excellent article on the subject.
Here's the article in question, and here's why IJN DamCom is so bad. While we're on the subject of posting informative links, here's a good post about carrier design philosophies, and why the Japanese designs were so problematic. Additionally, while these two have almost certainly been linked already in this thread, its been long enough since then that people could use a refresher on what the USN's overall strategy is and why the Japanese shot themselves in the foot to dramatically. For good measure, have some bits about how bad IJN ASW is.
 
I usually start screaming and have to go lie down halfway through any given report....

JUDGEMENT AND EXPERIENCE
 
For those who don't know: NTMJ is the Naval Technical Mission to Japan. It can be summarised as "oh god why".

It's an entertaining read: you can see the look of horror on the writer's face as he recounts everything, academically.
Eh, there are a few bits that you can tell it was actually either an admiring look or just one of, "Well, that's a perfectly good solution that just happens to be different." For example, discussing the almost-completely automatic loading system incorporated into Yamato's main gun turrets, where they acknowledged that it was a very efficient, reliable, and quick system, albeit at the cost of weighing 50% more than a US-style manual-with-power-assistance system (which about evens out with the weight reduction from the reduced manning required). No look of horror there, just acknowledgement of it being a good solution that the US didn't want to use (and a bit of casual racism in stating that it might have been necessary for 18" guns "due to the lower overall size and strength of the average Japanese sailor" as compared to Americans).

The submarines also got off fairly well (with the exception of Maruyu, but she was an Army design); while the I-400s got "...da fuck?" looks at the thought of carrying airplanes on subs, they were acknowledged as good solutions to an "oh god why?" requirement, and the I-200s were seen as "god DAMN that's a good boat... small, yes, but fast as SHIT, we need to steal as much of this as we can for the future" and played a major role in the design of the postwar GUPPY rebuild program and the pre-Albacore designs for new construction. And there was nothing but praise for the Japanese optical systems--the scorn was for not having integrated radar as thoroughly as the US had, making those massive rangefinders on the Yamatos critical instead of secondary; the optics themselves were considered to be among the best in the world and worthy of copying if it was felt that optical fire control was something that needed to be retained in future designs.
 
The submarines also got off fairly well (with the exception of Maruyu, but she was an Army design); while the I-400s got "...da fuck?" looks at the thought of carrying airplanes on subs, they were acknowledged as good solutions to an "oh god why?" requirement, and the I-200s were seen as "god DAMN that's a good boat... small, yes, but fast as SHIT, we need to steal as much of this as we can for the future" and played a major role in the design of the postwar GUPPY rebuild program and the pre-Albacore designs for new construction. And there was nothing but praise for the Japanese optical systems--the scorn was for not having integrated radar as thoroughly as the US had, making those massive rangefinders on the Yamatos critical instead of secondary; the optics themselves were considered to be among the best in the world and worthy of copying if it was felt that optical fire control was something that needed to be retained in future designs.

You missed the part about the Batteries...

Anyways, I'm wondering if this battle is going to put a pause to the IJN advance, due to most of their CVs air wings till being savaged and losing Kaga. I'm also wondering how much blame Hiryu will get out of Kaga's sinking.
 
Eh, there are a few bits that you can tell it was actually either an admiring look or just one of, "Well, that's a perfectly good solution that just happens to be different." For example, discussing the almost-completely automatic loading system incorporated into Yamato's main gun turrets, where they acknowledged that it was a very efficient, reliable, and quick system, albeit at the cost of weighing 50% more than a US-style manual-with-power-assistance system (which about evens out with the weight reduction from the reduced manning required). No look of horror there, just acknowledgement of it being a good solution that the US didn't want to use (and a bit of casual racism in stating that it might have been necessary for 18" guns "due to the lower overall size and strength of the average Japanese sailor" as compared to Americans).

The submarines also got off fairly well (with the exception of Maruyu, but she was an Army design); while the I-400s got "...da fuck?" looks at the thought of carrying airplanes on subs, they were acknowledged as good solutions to an "oh god why?" requirement, and the I-200s were seen as "god DAMN that's a good boat... small, yes, but fast as SHIT, we need to steal as much of this as we can for the future" and played a major role in the design of the postwar GUPPY rebuild program and the pre-Albacore designs for new construction. And there was nothing but praise for the Japanese optical systems--the scorn was for not having integrated radar as thoroughly as the US had, making those massive rangefinders on the Yamatos critical instead of secondary; the optics themselves were considered to be among the best in the world and worthy of copying if it was felt that optical fire control was something that needed to be retained in future designs.

The I-400s were the largest submarines in the world until the boomers were launched, imagine the surprise of the Americans when they captured the damn things.
 
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