Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

Obviously not in regards to technical matters, Thompson was not trained to be an engineer or a mechanic, but I would think that any program that Thompson would be placed in would have a high level of secrecy.

Maybe to the level of the Manhattan Project?

Unless the US Military's training includes less historical knowledge than the average alternate history enthusiast, Thompson knows the following:
Implosion bombs can work in practice with 1940s tech, even if made from uranium instead of plutonium. Of course the gun type design is still the most idiot-proof, but it's still a confirmation. Also, Plutonium is Element 94, produced from reactors like Chicago Pile 1, but the physicists should already know that.
Besides confirmation, there's a couple big things:
  1. Convoys and coastal blackouts needed on East Coast
  2. DAMN THE TORPEDOES!!!111!!!!!!!!
 
Question for everyone,

I have been wondering, but what will likely happen to James Thompson now that his secret is out? Personally, I think he is going to be recalled and be placed within a secret US Government Program concerning shipgirls. Obviously, a cover story will be released to the press regarding Thompson "Illness".

There is no way in my mind that the US government is going to risk Thompson getting himself killed when he clearly has considerable knowledge that will benefit the United States. Obviously not in regards to technical matters, Thompson was not trained to be an engineer or a mechanic, but I would think that any program that Thompson would be placed in would have a high level of secrecy.

Maybe to the level of the Manhattan Project? Actually, who would the United States recruit for a possible shipgirl project? Of course, they will have Thompson, but would they try to recruit religious leaders? Christain priests and pastors? Or maybe even native american shamans? Will they try and study Shinto rituals if the Japanese successfully summon a shipgirl?

How would they analyze the military potential of shipgirls? They will need access to a large body of water that shipgirls can practice on and keep hidden from the public? Maybe an isolated part of the US coastline? Or maybe an isolated island?

Either way, the US has plenty of experience in keeping something a secret. Unless Soviet spies were already among the people they recruited like in the Manhattan project.
The absolute first thing that'll happen, since it's clear that he's a time-traveller now, is that ONI will pick his brain for every possible bit of intel they could get to verify their assessments and get some forecasts of what threats might be coming down the pipe before the end of the war. (Examples might be "Hey, are we right about those new Jap battleships, or is there actually something to the rumors that they're bigger?" and "So you're saying we need to start a program to be ready to keep bombers at least thirty miles away from our ships so they can't drop guided bombs at 'em?" and possibly even "Wait, he was serious about exterminating the Jews?")

Beyond that, he'd probably end up still having a seagoing command because there's no way Sara would put up with being separated from him, and there's no way that we could relegate CV-3 to a noncombat role. She might end up being held in reserve more often, and spend a lot of time working with the evaluations of shipgirl potential, but the demands of war won't let Sara be taken completely off the line, and good luck getting her to agree to let him be assigned away from her...
 
Implosion bombs can work in practice with 1940s tech,
He knows nothing about how to make nukes. He's a destroyer skipper, not a nuclear weapons specialist, and even then, he'd only know how to target and fire the things. He was never even implied to know anything about how nukes are made. It's unlikely he's even read anything on the Manhattan Project, either.

So do tell, where did you get this idea from?
 
It's unlikely he's even read anything on the Manhattan Project, either.
So do tell, where did you get this idea from?

I assess as "impossible" the idea of learning about WWII history in enough detail to prepare to manage nuances of shipgirls without learning about the Manhattan Project. So if Roosevelt asks ANYONE well-versed in WWII history, they should know "yeah, atomic bombs will work, the implosion type which is viable on paper is viable in reality too. It's more efficient but will require more engineering to make work." But notice I said

Besides confirmation

In other words, "This worked in your future?" gets answered with "Yeah, the sound principles can be translated to real practical engineering at the current tech level".

The real important things are Drumbeat and the torpedoes.

He can also know that ASV radar planes are important, that the Yamatos have 9x 18-inch but are going to be useless white elephants because the time of the battleship has passed, etc.
 
So if Roosevelt asks ANYONE well-versed in WWII history, they should know "yeah, atomic bombs will work, the implosion type which is viable on paper is viable in reality too. It's more efficient but will require more engineering to make work." But notice I said
Well I guess I don't count as a WW2 enthusiast by that definition. Expecting your average enthusiast or even military officer to know the ins and outs of every specific part of WW2, no matter how important, is folly. The atomic bomb project and the eastern front are vital parts of WW2, but I couldn't give you an in depth analysis of either because the naval battles and other aspects of the War held my attention. Expecting everyone to have your level of knowledge about a topic is folly.
 
I assess as "impossible" the idea of learning about WWII history in enough detail to prepare to manage nuances of shipgirls without learning about the Manhattan Project. So if Roosevelt asks ANYONE well-versed in WWII history, they should know "yeah, atomic bombs will work, the implosion type which is viable on paper is viable in reality too. It's more efficient but will require more engineering to make work." But notice I said

Oh my god this idiocy again. Naval tactics have fuck-all to do with the mechanics of how nuclear bombs work. And even ignoring that insignificant detail... Could he know? Sure. Would the engineers and scientists at the Manhattan project believe him? Nope. God Himself in all His Glory could come down and tell them, and they'd tell Him to fuck off and come back with experimental proof. They will flat out refuse to build implosion bombs as opposed to the gun-type without that aforementioned experimental proof, no matter who tells them to. And they'll be right.

In other words, "This worked in your future?" gets answered with "Yeah, the sound principles can be translated to real practical engineering at the current tech level".

The real important things are Drumbeat and the torpedoes.

He can also know that ASV radar planes are important, that the Yamatos have 9x 18-inch but are going to be useless white elephants because the time of the battleship has passed, etc.

I'm gonna repeat myself from our previous "discussions" that you have utterly failed to learn from.

Thompson.

Is.

Not.

An.

Engineer.

His training is tactical, not technical. See my previous comment about God Himself, because the scientists and engineers are going to insist on hard evidence, not the word of a time traveler who could get the crucial details wrong simply because human memory is falliable, or he didn't know they were important.

For instance, a crucial detail that I see otherwise-knowledgeable people fucking up a lot: The Mark 13 Torpedo did not mount the faulty Mark 6 Magnetic Influence Detonator, it mounted the robust, reliable Mark 8 Contact Exploder. In fact, there were no mechanical problems with the Mark 13 Torpedo, as shown by its reliable service on PT boats. It needed a drag ring and entry shock absorber (See: Pickle Barrel and ring tail) to reduce the shock of water entry.
 
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They will flat out refuse to build implosion bombs as opposed to the gun-type without that aforementioned experimental proof, no matter who tells them to. And they'll be right.

Because the scientists are such closed-minded ivory tower idiots that they cannot possibly undergo the following process:

Scientist A: "Oi, you did the math on that idea from higher up yet?"
Scientist B: "Yeah, the calculations work."
Scientist A: "Huh, might be on to something there."
Scientist B: "Well, they worked since the higher ups said to assume the parts all worked within required parameters."
Scientist A and B: *shares a look, then burst into uproarious laughter*
Scientist C: "Wait, you don't think the higher ups are actually going to try making us build such a thing, do you?"
Scientist A: *chokes on own saliva*
Scientist B: "They'll want something reliable, we don't need to worry about that."

...Right.

His training is tactical, not technical.

"The magnetic detonators were an epic fail, especially as the contact pistol also sucked. The submarine torpedoes ran deep and are prone to circular runs." is not exactly technical knowledge for anyone who learnt about WWII Pacific Theatre submarine performance, and I'm sure there's enough history taught at navy school to cover THAT...
 
Thompson could absolutely say "Hey, all of our torps sucked until 1943-44. We might want to look into that really heavily". That's also about all he could say. The rest is up to the actual engineers.
For nukes... he could probably say "Hey, I've heard of implosion nukes" and... that's about it.
He knows nothing about nuke design.
 
If anyone with a smattering of naval history doesn't have enough knowledge to say "hey to fix the torps stop using the mag detonator and make the contact one able to handle the g forces from impact" they have no knowledge of naval history. Almost every book that has any bit of the pacific theater in it mentions it. As for nukes basically the same thing. I can't remember last time I read a book that talked anything about them without it mentioning that one was a gun-type device and the other was implosion. If Thompson literally doesn't know either of those then what the hell kind of education did he get?
 
Oh for the love of Murphy this again?

The last conversation he just had with Richardson puts paid to this nonsense. Richardson already affirmed his value in the field, not behind a desk. Brief the President while he recuperates, yes. But then it's back to Sara he goes. The author put it in the freaking text.

It really seems sometimes that certain people opine on this story as if it is a quest, which it is not!

And finally, there have been enough butterflies that Thompson's future knowledge is clearly out the window because certain results do not have their precursor events any more.
 
Thompson could absolutely say "Hey, all of our torps sucked until 1943-44. We might want to look into that really heavily". That's also about all he could say. The rest is up to the actual engineers.
For nukes... he could probably say "Hey, I've heard of implosion nukes" and... that's about it.
He knows nothing about nuke design.

He tried. BuOrds decided to only look at the depth running issues on the airdropped variant.
 
Right. I really don't have time for this, but:

You can tell someone that there are two types of nukes. You can tell them the difference between Fat Man and Little Boy. You can even tell them that one works better than the other and that focusing on that one may not be a bad idea.

You're not going to get anywhere.

Leaving aside that Thompson doesn't know the first thing about how to actually make a nuke, there's a thing called 'sunken effort'. The Manhattan Project, such as it is in 1941/early 1942, has already put a lot of effort and infrastructure into making both types of nukes. Even if the ones in charge believe a man from the future, they've already put in a lot of effort and money. Furthermore, without hard proof and evidence, they're still going to want to be careful and have a backup. Even if they know that one type works better than the other, they're scientists working for the military. Having a backup is to be expected, no matter the future knowledge.

If Thompson were a nuclear engineer who could stroll in and show them how to make one, that's different. He can't. It's just like the argument on changing the design of Essex. He can say anything he wants, but he can't show why or how.

Like. If you're a theoretical physicist and some random guy from the future who has no experience in your field shows up and gives you the bare bones 'this works better than this, focus on it!' are you going to drop everything and do what he said? Or are you going to take it into consideration, maybe devote a bit more effort than originally intended, and keep working on the backup? Because that's what a good scientist would do, if so much is riding on your work.

Of course, Thompson himself may veto going anywhere near Manhattan, just because the thing is riddled with Soviet spies and he doesn't have a photographic memory of who is a Dirty Red Spytm​. Hell, the man may outright tell Roosevelt that and go 'sure, I'll talk to Oppenheimer, but do we want the Russians to know the better type of bomb to go towards?'

The general gist of what I'm trying to say here:

Thompson is neither a historian, nor any type of engineer. He can give ideas, he can confirm things, but he can't just wave a magic wand. Manhattan is still going to make both kinds of nukes, because of the reasons they did OTL: having a backup if one fails. No amount of 'I'm from the future, I know they both work, but this one is better' will change that.

The same logic goes for anything else he can do. Ships, torpedoes, planes, tactics. Knowledge of the Germans and Japanese is very useful, but only so far as generalities and specifications of plans/equipment. Butterflies make a lot of specific stuff useless. Like Guderian in Africa, or how Repulse and friends are doing in the Dutch East Indies.
 
"The magnetic detonators were an epic fail, especially as the contact pistol also sucked. The submarine torpedoes ran deep and are prone to circular runs." is not exactly technical knowledge for anyone who learnt about WWII Pacific Theatre submarine performance, and I'm sure there's enough history taught at navy school to cover THAT...

Did you... actually read the torpedo I was citing? The Mark 13, which was the air-dropped torpedo, and shared an engine and a gyroscope with the much more problematic Mark 14/15 near-twins.

The Mark 8 Contact Exploder is not a component of the Mark 6 Magnetic Influence Detonator. It's a completely different piece of hardware.

And while knowing the problem is great and all... once the admiral at BuOrd who was quashing the test got canned, figuring out the problems didn't take very long. Figuring out a solution (Which, again, is one of those fiddly technical things that the best thing for Thompson to do is stay the fuck out of the way).

"hey to fix the torps stop using the mag detonator and make the contact one able to handle the g forces from impact"

Okay. How do you make the contact pistol handle the impact forces? That's the part that takes a while.

You can rig a fix that works most of the time by increasing the spring rate on the firing pin, or replacing it with an aluminum one, but that's a stopgap measure.

Because the scientists are such closed-minded ivory tower idiots that they cannot possibly undergo the following process:

Scientist A: "Oi, you did the math on that idea from higher up yet?"
Scientist B: "Yeah, the calculations work."
Scientist A: "Huh, might be on to something there."
Scientist B: "Well, they worked since the higher ups said to assume the parts all worked within required parameters."
Scientist A and B: *shares a look, then burst into uproarious laughter*
Scientist C: "Wait, you don't think the higher ups are actually going to try making us build such a thing, do you?"
Scientist A: *chokes on own saliva*
Scientist B: "They'll want something reliable, we don't need to worry about that."

...Right.

Right... except, and hang on to your pants here, Thompson does not have relevant expertise. They are going to be no more inclined to waste time doing the math on the basis of something he says than on the basis of something some random dude off the street says, because, once again, he doesn't have relevant expertise. Thompson is a tactician, not a physicist or nuclear engineer. The scientists are not going to listen to higher ups saying "assume all parts work within required parameters", because it's already known that if all parts of an implosion bomb work as expected, the thing will work, and none of the people in their chain of command would ever give such an idiotic order.

This whole scenario makes it amply clear you have never worked in a university-level laboratory and are just blowing hot air out of your ass because you refuse to admit that the progression of the Manhattan project is something Thompson is unable to realistically affect. In this environment, working with very experimental, poorly understood technology you don't assume anything like that. Everything is rigorously tested. Everything.

As for nukes basically the same thing. I can't remember last time I read a book that talked anything about them without it mentioning that one was a gun-type device and the other was implosion.

I didn't know whether Little Boy and Fat Man were gun-type or implosion until this whole moronic argument got rolling. I knew both types existed, but didn't know the advantages of one over the other, because frankly it never interested me or mattered to me, and I was rather well versed in a lot of the technical details of a lot of WW2-era weapons systems and engineering plants.

EDIT: Didn't see Sky had already posted. Sorry.
 
It's just like the argument on changing the design of Essex. He can say anything he wants, but he can't show why or how.

As we discussed before, the Essex is fixed and in series production. The class AFTER the Essex (OTL Midways) however will surely not start off with a straight flight deck in a world where you have a guy confirming "Well in the future we used angled flight decks to have takeoffs and landings less likely to crash together." plus the fact that some British guy had suggested the idea of an angled landing deck years ago in the 1930s.

He can give ideas, he can confirm things

Exactly what I was saying. He can answer stuff like...

"Did anti-air rockets pan out?" = "Not without a guidance package"
"What electronics were you used to in the future" = "Semiconductor transistors, not vacuum tubes" => "What the hell is a transistor?" (the term wasn't coined yet) => "Ah, solid semiconductors, I'm not sure about the details" => "Well at least we'll be on the lookout for that tech to invest in..."
"Any ideas on improving the amphibious assault kit you see here?" might get "Radios are extremely useful, I hope the artillery support training on ships is good. Amphibious tanks would be very nice to have, but ideally not using canvas fold-ups for bouyancy. Launching very close would be ideal... preferably from very shallow draft landing craft. But those are obvious already, so let me think... Wait, styrofoam was invented around this time. We can use Styrofoam fillers between the outer plating and main armour on a light tank version of the amphibious tractors that are in development... er, early serial production, around now!"

...Huh, I surprised myself with this realization... ah, let's check the timeline...
Landing Vehicle Tracked - Wikipedia
That thing can fit an M8 GMC's turret (the Stuart turret with a 76mm howitzer) AND add small-arms-proof armour plating comfortably. Add Styrofoam blocks as waterproof space filler along the sides and you can add even more main armour (styrofoam blocks encased in metal bins (protection against abrasion) are extremely resistant to sinking by small arms fire)
With styrofoam modules attached over the skirts (if you use large canisters the skirts can't actually flap around when teh canisters are in place, remove the canisters and you can flip the skirts up for track maintenance, it would have some effect like the outrigger hulls on a trimaran (Were the Littoral Combat Ships ever built in Thompson's future? If so then as a destroyer captain he should be familiar with the idea, but he need not suggest any of this, it's a natural consequence of adding styrofoam as bouyant space filler to an amphibious tank design).

it's already known that if all parts of an implosion bomb work as expected, the thing will work

Well that's news to me. Duly noted that they're already aware that it's a practical possibility, as opposed to making it a secondary effort to the more reliable gun type bomb.
 
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Hey everyone,
I would like to apologize for my previous post. I had no idea that it would cause this huge mess. Thompson is not a technican or an engineer. Thus there is no way he could ever help make something like an atom bomb or invent new weapons, as he is not trained in those specific fields. To make an atomic Bomb, you need a nuclear physicist like Oppenheimer or Bohr. To make an new improved tank or torpedo, you need whole design teams who are trained in specialized fields.

I did not specify my inquiry and thus it got out of control.
 
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Asking a question isn't a problem.

Dragging things out like this, on the other hand, is. I wouldn't blame you for that.
 
Hey everyone,

I would like to apologize for my previous post. I had no idea that it would cause this huge mess. Thompson is not a technican or an engineer. Thus there is no way he could ever help make something like an atom bomb or invent new weapons, as he is not trained in those specific fields. To make an atomic Bomb, you need a nuclear physicist like Oppenheimer or Bohr. To make an new improved tank or torpedo, you need whole design teams who are trained in specialized fields.

I did not specify my inquiry and thus it got out of control.

Well, personally I took your question as "would admiral Thompson be whisked away by the government to help them sort out the military lessons learned since WW2, so that they can avoid the painful lessons of experience?" With the Manhattan project being mentioned only as a comparison for secrecy levels.

Was that what you were trying to say? Because I feel that is a fair question.
 
....preferably from very shallow draft landing craft. But those are obvious already, so let me think... Wait, styrofoam was invented around this time. We can use Styrofoam fillers between the outer plating and main armour on a light tank version of the amphibious tractors that are in development... er, early serial production, around now!"

...Huh, I surprised myself with this realization... ah, let's check the timeline...
Landing Vehicle Tracked - Wikipedia
That thing can fit an M8 GMC's turret (the Stuart turret with a 76mm howitzer) AND add small-arms-proof armour plating comfortably. Add Styrofoam blocks as waterproof space filler along the sides and you can add even more main armour (styrofoam blocks encased in metal bins (protection against abrasion) are extremely resistant to sinking by small arms fire)
With styrofoam modules attached over the skirts (if you use large canisters the skirts can't actually flap around when teh canisters are in place, remove the canisters and you can flip the skirts up for track maintenance, it would have some effect like the outrigger hulls on a trimaran (Were the Littoral Combat Ships ever built in Thompson's future? If so then as a destroyer captain he should be familiar with the idea, but he need not suggest any of this, it's a natural consequence of adding styrofoam as bouyant space filler to an amphibious tank design).

Could he at least mention to not have landing craft ramps mounted in the front. Honestly I don't know who thought that was a good idea to begin with but still changing the ramp location for landing craft would be extremely helpful in not losing as many lives on D-day, or better yet just use amtanks instead of Higgins boats.

Speaking of D-Day does Thompson have any knowledge of what went wrong on Omaha beach (the bombers meant to help soften up the defenses missed)

Edit: Also Yay thread is alive \_(^_^)_/
 
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Well, personally I took your question as "would admiral Thompson be whisked away by the government to help them sort out the military lessons learned since WW2, so that they can avoid the painful lessons of experience?" With the Manhattan project being mentioned only as a comparison for secrecy levels.

Was that what you were trying to say? Because I feel that is a fair question.
Pretty much. But I was also thinking that Thompson would be an asset in regards to any military project focusing on shipgirls. I am not certain of the extent of Thompson's knowledge in regard to the summoning and maintence of shipgirls, but he should be experienced in the military deployment of shipgirls and have some knowledge on shipgirl summoning. Either way, the United States will definitely start a shipgirl project if it becomes known that the Germans and the Italians have started a shipgirl project. Not to mention if the Japanese were to start a shipgirl project
I am not sure of the impact that the development of shipgirls would have on the war, but I think it would be impressive. At the very least, the ability to summon shipgirls would theoretically enable any nation to rebuild or strengthen their naval power.
 
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Could he at least mention to not have landing craft ramps mounted in the front. Honestly I don't know who thought that was a good idea to begin with but still changing the ramp location for landing craft would be extremely helpful in not losing as many lives on D-day, or better yet just use amtanks instead of Higgins boats.
Here's something important to remember about Andrew Higgins, "America's Noah," and his boat.

He beat the Navy's design for a landing craft. By a mile. And built just gajillions of them. Seriously. His work ethic is legendary.

He went from less than 100 employees working his only assembly line, to thousands of workers across 24 factories. And when the assembly lines at a factory became too crowded, he closed off the street in front of the building, and used that space for construction too.

And you need to give some consideration to his competition. Look at the British tactic at the time. Either ram an expendable vessel ashore, or use rowboats; when he submitted, challenged, and was accepted by the Navy. And it's a good design. Two machine guns, armored ramp, and six feet of draft at the deepest. Drives like a bus. Fits a whole squadron easily.

It wasn't until the war was in full swing that the Army realized it's not perfect. So they started on LVTs.
 
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Could he at least mention to not have landing craft ramps mounted in the front. Honestly I don't know who thought that was a good idea to begin with but still changing the ramp location for landing craft would be extremely helpful in not losing as many lives on D-day, or better yet just use amtanks instead of Higgins boats.
The Higgins boats and its like are generally considered to be one of the things that made D-Day possible at all. It allowed for troops to disembark close to shore on a craft that could then go back for more without being too costly to make. There's absolutely no way to get around the fact that performing amphibious assaults on prepared defences is going to be hell on the first waves.

Floating tanks were in fact brought in with the first wave, and the ones that made it ashore played an often overlooked key roll as fire support.
 
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What I meant was give them something instead of throwing them into the open all packed nice and tightly together. I mean even throwing a bunch of smoke on the beach would be better than what they had. I'm just thinking about ways Thompson could reduce casualties from the landings on D-Day.
 
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