Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

You're talking out of your ass. Nothing in that order contains stuff about unethical human experimentation. It explicitly says that informed consent is required for every paritcipant, for starters, and that the only way to avoid that is a waiver (which only lasts a year) to be requested by one of the Cabinet Secretaries and approved by the President.

Also, the document is from 1999, so what the fuck are you even doing.

The Japanese committed a LOT of war crimes in and before WW2, but they also committed a number of humanitarian atrocities with no justifications behind them. To try and equivocate the United States and Japan in terms of war crimes and atrocities in WW2 is a damn joke.

------

Anyway, I'm really liking this story so far. It's an interesting premise, and so far it's well executed.

A few things to bring up, which might be helpful:
1) If Admiral Thompson is trying to make a difference ahead of time (via preparations), one of the biggest (and safest) things he can do is to kick-start the badly needed revamping of the USN's torpedoes. While I can't really comment on the surface-warship-launched torpedoes, the air-dropped and submarine-launched torpedoes were fucking atrocious. As in, 90% of them (at least in the air-dropped torps' case; the sub-fired torps were maybe a bit better) would, even in a perfect deployment/launching, either veer off-course, run substantially deeper than they were set to, or just flat-out fail to detonate even when they hit the target dead on. There is at least one case that comes to mind--an entire squadron of torpedo bombers performed perfect torpedo runs on slow-moving, sizable, vulnerable targets...and every single torpedo failed to hit the target or detonate upon contact with the target (the torps were well-aimed, btw). Submarine commanders noted cases where they'd launch a torpedo at a target and their instruments would pick up the dull thud of it hitting the target dead on, but failing to detonate. Eventually, a crash program was launched to figure out the problems and come up with solutions for them, and it succeeded quite well--after the small changes to the design, the torpedoes became extremely reliable and even more effective than anticipated.

So, one way to jump-start this process would be to run some live-fire torpedo tests of his own. Maybe he'd need permission from Richardson to conduct it, but it shouldn't be hard to convince him to do some kind of such testing. Given how pervasive the problems were, they'd become apparent pretty quickly.

Another way to help his own preparedness is to have his own crews run drills for putting up a coordinated air strike group in an efficient time frame, such that you'd have a mix of dive-bombers, torpedo-bombers, and escort fighters traveling to the target together and attacking as one group. USN practice early in the war was to put up entire squadrons together before sending them out, which lead to a 12-16 torpedo bombers arriving at the target alone, without any escort, to get cut down by the enemy CAP. He should also practice having his radar operators and flight control directors relay navigation instructions to fighter/bomber wings, with regards to vectoring them to the target. In particular, practicing radio communications discipline and vectoring CAP for intercepting incoming enemy attacks.

And I'm not sure if he could reasonably get it, but he could try to advocate for torpedo blisters to be installed onto the carriers. One of their biggest vulnerabilities was against torpedoes.

Oh, and lastly...he might want to suggest some additional training/preparation for night-fighting. Emphasize the enormous advantage that radar--and equally importantly, taking maximum advantage of whatever radar capability you had--would give you in night-fighting.

2) This:
Thing is that prior to Pearl Harbor the American people didn't really want a war with Japan. If Japan had just been satisfied with their current gains, the US probably would have only made a token effort.

Pearl however, simply set the American people off like a powder keg.
Is a fairly good point, though a slight exaggeration. American military leaders were worried that the American public might not be motivated to see a prolonged war with Japan through to the very end; there was never any fear about the public not putting up with anything more than a token effort. The attack on Pearl Harbor shattered those concerns anyway, as it was a blatantly illegal, very premeditated, and very shocking massive attack on US soil and American citizens.

Ironically, the attack on Pearl Harbor was about as good an outcome to the event as the American military could have reasonably asked for, as shattered any notions about underestimating the enemy and completely galvanized the United States for the war, while at the same time sped up the realization and adoption of aircraft carriers, submarines, and destroyers as the main elements of naval warfare. I could go on about this for a while, but I hope you get the idea: Thompson should not look to thwart the attack utterly, but rather mitigate the devastation it would bring to the battleship fleet just enough to avoid having any of them sunk.

Regardless, he absolutely cannot rely on the assumptions that everything surrounding Pearl Harbor will be the same. A slight change now could easily affect the patrol patterns and dates of the carriers, ensuring that some of them are in port at the time of the attack...or that one of the carriers stumbles onto the approaching strike force before it launches its planes (in which case, that carrier is going to have a really hard time not getting annihilated, being outnumbered six-to-one and out-gunned by superior Japanese fighters and torpedo bombers).

If Thompson wants to press the point home to the battleship girls just how futile a sortie against the strike force would be, he need only mention that the enemy carriers will be escorted by battleships and submarines--meaning, they'd have to fight through their counterparts while damaged before the fighting even starts, all while risking getting torpedoed by submarines they can't even fight back against. He could also mention how there were no cases of fleet carriers being sunk by battleships in the entire war--they were sunk by either other aircraft carriers, land-based aircraft, or by submarines--but there were plenty of cases of battleships being sunk or decisively crippled by aircraft carriers and land-based aircraft.

---

EDIT: A quick search showed that the Mark 15 torpedoes--the ones which most destroyers used in WW2--had the same basic design problems as the more notorious Mark 14 torpedoes, and thus, were also horrendous.

And yeah, Admiral Thompson should probably know a lot of this stuff. As an admiral, he would certainly have studied the largest example of naval warfare in history. A lot of its lessons are still very applicable today, to say the least. I'd be very surprised if he hadn't studied/been taught the entirety of the naval aspect of WW2 in detail.
 
Last edited:
And Ironically enough, that very action guaranteed that the USA would fight the war until their victory and Japanese defeat. In fact, the entire Japanese strategy seems to me as if it was quite self-defeating.

IXjac has a ton of info on this back on SB. Here's one good bit.
Why did WW 2 Japan did not develop better ASW | Page 2
At first I thought that the quoted bit had something to due with japanese having terrible ASW... but nope, it seems like it was an off topic post in that thread actually...
 
And Ironically enough, that very action guaranteed that the USA would fight the war until their victory and Japanese defeat. In fact, the entire Japanese strategy seems to me as if it was quite self-defeating.

IXjac has a ton of info on this back on SB. Here's one good bit.
Why did WW 2 Japan did not develop better ASW | Page 2
Thanks for linking to that bit. Here's another peice of wisdom from IXJac:
A good source for answering this question is Mark Parillo's "The Japanese Mechant Marine in WWII." Parillo identifies primitive Japanese ASW tactics and technology as the most important reason behind the annihilation of the Japanese merchant marine and the subsequent starvation of the Japanese war machine.

As FleetAdmiral says, the Japanese focused on the "decisive battle" to the exclusion of all else. That meant they never invested the resources pre-war in building the necessary ships or doctrine for ASW. The navy they constructed was extremely "top heavy," with considerable front-line strength, but lacking the escort forces to back it up. This lack of priority is shown organizationally. Prior to the war there was actually no one organization within the Naval General Staff responsible for convoy escort. Instead it was a secondary - or even tertiary - responsibility for four separate sections. This inevitably meant that it was a priority for none of them. The few offices tasked with convoy and escort management handled it only on a part time basis, and with no central organization taking ownership of ASW as a priority, Japanese practice and technology never advanced beyond a very basic state.

The real problem in this is that ASW is a massively demanding affair, as the British and Americans found out in the Atlantic. It requires a confluence of advanced sub-hunting technology, sufficient numbers of escorts, and well trained escort crews. Even the Allies also lacked in these areas pre-war, but they still put a lot more effort into it than the Japanese did, and - most importantly - they had the industrial advantage to produce a vast quantity of shipping to make up for their mistakes until they could get it right.

The Japanese had no such industrial margin, but in a wonderful twist of fate for them, they got that margin elsewhere. Due to BuOrd's epic bungling, American submarines were nearly toothless for the first two years of the war. The Japanese utterly squandered this grace period, becoming complacent and making no improvements to their woeful escort practice, and then by the time sinkings skyrocketed in 1944 it was far too late for any reform to work. Even then, they continued to divert resources away from the escort command to Combined Fleet and its continual readiness to wage the decisive battle, so the escort forces always had whatever leavings the battlefleet felt it could part with.

So it wasn't so much that the Japanese made a conscious decision to accept a risk in neglecting ASW as it was a side effect of their utter focus on the decisive fleet battle. The Japanese military simply didn't think about economic matters much at all, and when those few whose job it was to think about those matters raised their (very serious) concerns, their realism was generally ignored. For example, when one of the IJNs few economic experts basically tried to explain to another fleet officer demanding an impossible shipping requirement that logistics just doesn't work that way, he was told; "shut up, you're hurting my brain." This about sums up the amount of intellectual rigor with which the IJN approached the ASW problem, and so makes the results of this contemptuous neglect wholly predictable.
 
Well, it's next in line after Indy to be updated, so probably by the end of the week!

In other slightly related news:

Ari-Quest is now a thing. Posting this in here since Ari is turning into quite a popular character in here.
 
Chapter 7
Chapter Seven: Work, Work and More Work

"What are you doing, Admiral?"

"Writing."

"Writing more of your memories?"

"Not this time, Sara."

James couldn't help a smile crossing his face, at the confused tilt of Saratoga's head. Her blue hair fell in front of green eyes, as the girl clearly questioned what he was doing without actually saying anything. Not that he could blame her. He rarely wrote anything down that wasn't something he needed to remember. Memories of the war were getting foggier and foggier the longer he was in the past, with no access to materials that could refresh him. Considering the events those materials referenced had yet to even happen, and may not happen, after all. It hardly helped that, with new memories added on, he was trying to keep tactics in his head more than events now.

France falling on a different day had done one thing for him, in the end. It had shown the Admiral that just being in the past was changing things.
He couldn't rely on his list of dates, as anything more than an overall indicator. About the only thing he was confident in happening the same day, was Pearl Harbor itself. If only because the attack had occurred when it had, with good reason. Stuff like Barbarossa? While outside of his influence anyway, he couldn't assume it would happen the same day or go the same way. Say, Greece lasted longer. Then Germany would take even longer to prepare. The same logic would work for Coral Sea or Midway.

It was for that reason, and that reason alone, that he was focusing more on tactics.

Of course, that's not what I'm doing now though.

"What are you writing then, sir?"

The Admiral held up the paper, not concerned at all with his closest friend reading it, "Letter home. I had to look through old papers and such, but I found my family. Granted, dear old Granddad is still a kid these days. My own father won't be born for a good thirty years."

"Your family?" Sara blinked slowly as she spoke up, "Are you sure?"

"I would think I know my own family, Sara." James snorted softly, "But yeah, I understand your question there. It's hard to believe it's still my family. I got tossed into the past, and I know for a fact there was no James Thompson in the 1940s, at least not in my family. Apparently I'm Great-Granddad's brother now."

The carrier frowned slightly, "And that's why you're writing?"

"Exactly. I may be focused on work, but I do need to keep up with the family, or things will look odd. It's actually interesting getting to know him, I barely remember Granddad."

And wasn't that an understatement. James' great-grandfather had died when he was still young, so his memories of the man were iffy at best. Luckily he had at least some idea of his personality from old letters and his grandfather's stories. But it wasn't a whole lot to work off of. Just enough to play off knowing the man, at least, enough to play off in letters. If James had to meet Hank Thompson in person? He wouldn't have the slightest clue how to act.

Hence, the letters. Keep up correspondence with his 'brother' and learn how to act when the two did have to meet in person. At least he didn't have to do the same with old high school friends, or what have you. Just like in the future, he had drifted apart from friends he had at that time period. Fellow officers might be more of a problem, but, nothing to be done there. If he came across a friend, he could only hope that whatever stuck him in the past had stuck him in the past with his personality intact.

Otherwise...well, cross that bridge when it came and all that.

"I'm sure you enjoy getting to know him too." Sara's smile was soft as ever.

"That too. It's a bit nice honestly, getting to know my family from this time period. Even if they're a bit..." James trailed off, wincing at some of the letters his 'father'- Great-great Granddad -had sent.

"Admiral?" Sara was clearly confused by that.

James just sighed, "I knew it was going to happen, but damn if dear old 'dad' is not sexist. He's talking all about how I need to get a 'good girl to take care of my home' and nonsense like that. His letters read like I need a trophy wife or something."

The carrier tilted her head again, "But don't you...?"

"Need a woman to take care of my home? Of course not," James couldn't help but look aghast at the very suggestion of that. "I mean, I wasn't even married in the future. Never time for that, and I sure as hell don't have time now."

Hardly helps that the only women I was around to any extent were either subordinates or the ship girls. I don't know how Goto dealt with Kongou.

"Oh." Sara smiled slightly, turning her head to look out the porthole. And away from him, for some reason.

For his part, James just returned to working on his letter, aware that he needed to get it done before the exercises he had planned for the next day. It had taken more time than he would have otherwise liked- it was now September after all -to push through the exercise. But, with a lot of cajoling and work with Admiral Richardson, James had what he needed. An exercise to test cooperation between three carriers, in this case Sara, Lex and Yorktown. At least, that was what it was to the Navy. To Admiral Thompson, it was much more.

This was his chance to do two very important things. One, to demonstrate carrier tactics and hopefully avoid the issues that plagued American carriers in the early war years. And two, a chance to get the torpedo problem fixed. He could still remember complaints from submarine girls in the early days of the American ship girl program. So many complaints about the 'shitty Mark 14' that he thought he'd never hear the end of it.
Research on that had turned up the issues in question. From the magnetic detonator, to circular runs, and everything in between. That entire family of torps had been a problem and he didn't like thinking how many men and ships might have died because of it.

"Admiral?"

"Hmm?"

Putting finishing touches on his letter, James turned back to Sara. The carrier had a serious look on her face, as she looked him in the eyes.

"Do you love one of us?"

Wait...what?

"Sara..." James sputtered, "Where the hell did that come from?"

"You never married, and you don't have any interest in finding a wife now. Does that mean you can't because of..." Here, the girl pointed at her hull.

All that the Admiral could do was turn away, knowing his face had gone red, "I'm not having this conversation. I thought I got enough of that from York."

"So you have talked about this before?"

"Not talking about it."

Ignoring the soft laughter from the carrier, James sighed and got back to his bunk. Now that the letter was finished, he could afford to rest before moving towards the next task in his never ending work. He could only hope his work payed off, this time.



In that regard, one of his tasks already had worked. USS Arizona was looking at her crew, as they drilled to prepare for an air attack. She had no idea what Admiral Thompson had told her Admiral. But he had put more work into ensuring her crew could use her sadly limited anti-aircraft weaponry properly. It was quite interesting to watch actually. Ari had only really seen her main battery and the sponson guns put to use before. Anti-aircraft training and weaponry? She had little experience with that, just as her crew did. It was a new experience all around.

Not that she was going to complain, of course. Not only was this an interesting experience, it was an important one. Even if she didn't have much in the way of anti-air guns aboard at the moment, the training could help if she got a refit to add more. And it would certainly help a lot, come December 7th. Ari trusted Admiral Thompson's word implicitly. There was no doubt that he knew what he was talking about.

"I hope he can work around my Admiral." Ari mused, as she watched her crew rotate a gun mount. "But I'm sure he can!"

"I would hope so."

"Utah?"

Looking around, Ari smiled at the sight of the older girl sliding into harbor. Utah bore the marks of training, but she carried them well. The proud old dreadnought may not have been a fighter anymore, but she still had the grace of her lineage.

"Yes. My boilers require maintenance, or I would be out helping in his new training program." There was a hint of pain in Utah's voice.

Ari couldn't help but wince in sympathy, "Are you alright?"

"I'm fine, Arizona. Just...old and tired."

More tired than she might let on, if what Ari heard in her older cousin's voice was real. Boiler problems translated to heart problems, in a ship spirit. Utah had to be hurting if her crew needed to bring her back into harbor to be maintained. And there was nothing she could do to help the older girl but be moral support either.

Times like this, I wish I could leave my hull. Admiral Thompson's stories about us in his time...

The battleship smiled at the memory of those talks, those stories. Hearing about being able to sail on the waves in her human body? It was so nice to imagine! But, Ari couldn't do that for now. She was stuck aboard her hull, and could only watch as Utah pulled into her berth.

"Well, let me know if you need anything!" Ari smiled at the other ship, well aware Utah couldn't see her.

"I will. Thank you." There was genuine appreciation in Utah's voice, before the older girl probably went to sleep to rest while she was repaired.

Turning away from Utah, Arizona instead looked back to her crew.

"Hey, Carl?" One of the gunners was saying as he leaned against a gun. "Why're we doin this again?"

"Cap'n says we need to be ready for air attack."

"Why though? Ain't that what those flyboys are for?"

"'Course, but they can't cover us all the time."

One of the other men snorted, "I'd kill for a posting on one of those carriers. You seen how big Sister Sara is? Probably a lot less cramped than being stuck on this old wagon."

"Jeez man, don't say that shit." The first gunner looked around warily. "What if Cap hears ya? Not to mention, haven't you heard those stories about Utah?"

"What, that she's haunted?"

"Exactly! Freaky stuff is happenin on that ship, and it's not just Utah! We're like, the only ship in the fleet it isn't happening on."

Ari winced at that, her ever present smile fading slightly. She was so focused on helping Admiral Thompson personally, that she had yet to do any work on talking with her own crew. It was...just so nice talking with the Admiral. She loved spending time with him. Working with him! And it had left her not spending any effort on her own crew. Not like Utah, who claimed she was close to a breakthrough. Or Cali, who seemed to enjoy messing with her crew more than actually working with them. And then there was Ari...who just didn't do anything.

She probably should change that.

"Utah?"

"Hmm?" the tired old battleship hummed.

"How...how do you talk to your crew?"

"Ah. I was wondering when you would want to try that, Arizona." There was a hint of amusement in Utah's voice now. "I would suggest you try talking with your Captain first. Or your Admiral. It is more likely to work than a random member of your crew."

"So I just...go up to him?"

"That is what I have done, yes. I have yet to manage an actual conversation however."

Ari bit her lip, worriedly clenching at her skirt, "What about talking to my whole crew?"

Utah was silent, before she hummed in thought again, "Intercom? We are able to use our radios, so logically..."

"Oh! I can try that!"

"I would suggest you try talking with your officers first, Arizona. That is why I have yet to try using my intercom myself."

The gentle chastising in Utah's tone was almost...motherly. Ari blushed slightly at that, as she recognized the logic in that request. She might do a bit more than scare her crew senseless, if they had a disembodied woman speaking through her speakers. Probably better to talk with her Captain first in that regard. She just wanted to help though!

But, pushing too hard or too fast...

'If I try to push too hard or too fast, all I'll do is make enemies.'

That was what Admiral Thompson had told her, the first time they had really talked about his plans. Maybe she lacked the 'making enemies' part of his statement, but she had taken his words to heart. Pushing too fast was going to cause problems if she...if they...weren't careful, wasn't it? Utah was right, just like the Admiral was right. Ari wanted to help, but she didn't want to make things worse for those she was trying to help. Especially for Admiral Thompson, who had enough to work on as it was. She would hate if she hurt him, by pushing too fast.

Especially since it may come back on him, somehow, if she talked with her crew like that.

"I want to help, but I don't want to mess up," Ari smiled softly, as she shook her head, "Right. Time to try talking with my Captain and Admiral!"
With that plan in mind, the battleship spun on her heel. She left her sailors behind, moving into her superstructure. She knew from long years of life, exactly where her Captain or Admiral were likely to be. So she just had to find them, and do her best! Because USS Arizona was not going to do anything but her best. It was the least she could do, to thank the man who had shown her what it was like to talk with people.

She could never repay Admiral Thompson for that, but every little thing helped.



And thus, do I update two stories (well, Indy was an omake to be fair) at once.

Now to crash because it is entirely too late here.
 
Very nice update. Some new angles I definitely hadn't seen coming, and I'm intrigued. And heh, the possibility of just speaking to the whole crew over the intercom system never even occurred to me. That would raise all kinds of hell, to be sure :p
 
Hardly helps that the only women I was around to any extent were either subordinates or the ship girls. I don't know how Goto dealt with Kongou.
Not knowing squat about KanColle beyond twenty minutes of the browser game and various artwork, could I get some more context here? Does this Kongou woman have a crush on Admiral Goto?

Nice update, Skywalker. Enjoyed the embarrassment the MC felt when the question of whether he fancied a shipgirl came up, although now I'm left wondering what would happen if relationships formed between them and normal humans. How would babies work? Reproduction in general?
 
Chapter Seven: Work, Work and More Work

"What are you doing, Admiral?"

"Writing."

"Writing more of your memories?"

"Not this time, Sara."

James couldn't help a smile crossing his face, at the confused tilt of Saratoga's head. Her blue hair fell in front of green eyes, as the girl clearly questioned what he was doing without actually saying anything. Not that he could blame her. He rarely wrote anything down that wasn't something he needed to remember. Memories of the war were getting foggier and foggier the longer he was in the past, with no access to materials that could refresh him. Considering the events those materials referenced had yet to even happen, and may not happen, after all. It hardly helped that, with new memories added on, he was trying to keep tactics in his head more than events now.

France falling on a different day had done one thing for him, in the end. It had shown the Admiral that just being in the past was changing things.
He couldn't rely on his list of dates, as anything more than an overall indicator. About the only thing he was confident in happening the same day, was Pearl Harbor itself. If only because the attack had occurred when it had, with good reason. Stuff like Barbarossa? While outside of his influence anyway, he couldn't assume it would happen the same day or go the same way. Say, Greece lasted longer. Then Germany would take even longer to prepare. The same logic would work for Coral Sea or Midway.

It was for that reason, and that reason alone, that he was focusing more on tactics.

Of course, that's not what I'm doing now though.

"What are you writing then, sir?"

The Admiral held up the paper, not concerned at all with his closest friend reading it, "Letter home. I had to look through old papers and such, but I found my family. Granted, dear old Granddad is still a kid these days. My own father won't be born for a good thirty years."

"Your family?" Sara blinked slowly as she spoke up, "Are you sure?"

"I would think I know my own family, Sara." James snorted softly, "But yeah, I understand your question there. It's hard to believe it's still my family. I got tossed into the past, and I know for a fact there was no James Thompson in the 1940s, at least not in my family. Apparently I'm Great-Granddad's brother now."

The carrier frowned slightly, "And that's why you're writing?"

"Exactly. I may be focused on work, but I do need to keep up with the family, or things will look odd. It's actually interesting getting to know him, I barely remember Granddad."

And wasn't that an understatement. James' great-grandfather had died when he was still young, so his memories of the man were iffy at best. Luckily he had at least some idea of his personality from old letters and his grandfather's stories. But it wasn't a whole lot to work off of. Just enough to play off knowing the man, at least, enough to play off in letters. If James had to meet Hank Thompson in person? He wouldn't have the slightest clue how to act.

Hence, the letters. Keep up correspondence with his 'brother' and learn how to act when the two did have to meet in person. At least he didn't have to do the same with old high school friends, or what have you. Just like in the future, he had drifted apart from friends he had at that time period. Fellow officers might be more of a problem, but, nothing to be done there. If he came across a friend, he could only hope that whatever stuck him in the past had stuck him in the past with his personality intact.

Otherwise...well, cross that bridge when it came and all that.

"I'm sure you enjoy getting to know him too." Sara's smile was soft as ever.

"That too. It's a bit nice honestly, getting to know my family from this time period. Even if they're a bit..." James trailed off, wincing at some of the letters his 'father'- Great-great Granddad -had sent.

"Admiral?" Sara was clearly confused by that.

James just sighed, "I knew it was going to happen, but damn if dear old 'dad' is not sexist. He's talking all about how I need to get a 'good girl to take care of my home' and nonsense like that. His letters read like I need a trophy wife or something."

The carrier tilted her head again, "But don't you...?"

"Need a woman to take care of my home? Of course not," James couldn't help but look aghast at the very suggestion of that. "I mean, I wasn't even married in the future. Never time for that, and I sure as hell don't have time now."

Hardly helps that the only women I was around to any extent were either subordinates or the ship girls. I don't know how Goto dealt with Kongou.

"Oh." Sara smiled slightly, turning her head to look out the porthole. And away from him, for some reason.

For his part, James just returned to working on his letter, aware that he needed to get it done before the exercises he had planned for the next day. It had taken more time than he would have otherwise liked- it was now September after all -to push through the exercise. But, with a lot of cajoling and work with Admiral Richardson, James had what he needed. An exercise to test cooperation between three carriers, in this case Sara, Lex and Yorktown. At least, that was what it was to the Navy. To Admiral Thompson, it was much more.

This was his chance to do two very important things. One, to demonstrate carrier tactics and hopefully avoid the issues that plagued American carriers in the early war years. And two, a chance to get the torpedo problem fixed. He could still remember complaints from submarine girls in the early days of the American ship girl program. So many complaints about the 'shitty Mark 14' that he thought he'd never hear the end of it.
Research on that had turned up the issues in question. From the magnetic detonator, to circular runs, and everything in between. That entire family of torps had been a problem and he didn't like thinking how many men and ships might have died because of it.

"Admiral?"

"Hmm?"

Putting finishing touches on his letter, James turned back to Sara. The carrier had a serious look on her face, as she looked him in the eyes.

"Do you love one of us?"

Wait...what?

"Sara..." James sputtered, "Where the hell did that come from?"

"You never married, and you don't have any interest in finding a wife now. Does that mean you can't because of..." Here, the girl pointed at her hull.

All that the Admiral could do was turn away, knowing his face had gone red, "I'm not having this conversation. I thought I got enough of that from York."

"So you have talked about this before?"

"Not talking about it."

Ignoring the soft laughter from the carrier, James sighed and got back to his bunk. Now that the letter was finished, he could afford to rest before moving towards the next task in his never ending work. He could only hope his work payed off, this time.



In that regard, one of his tasks already had worked. USS Arizona was looking at her crew, as they drilled to prepare for an air attack. She had no idea what Admiral Thompson had told her Admiral. But he had put more work into ensuring her crew could use her sadly limited anti-aircraft weaponry properly. It was quite interesting to watch actually. Ari had only really seen her main battery and the sponson guns put to use before. Anti-aircraft training and weaponry? She had little experience with that, just as her crew did. It was a new experience all around.

Not that she was going to complain, of course. Not only was this an interesting experience, it was an important one. Even if she didn't have much in the way of anti-air guns aboard at the moment, the training could help if she got a refit to add more. And it would certainly help a lot, come December 7th. Ari trusted Admiral Thompson's word implicitly. There was no doubt that he knew what he was talking about.

"I hope he can work around my Admiral." Ari mused, as she watched her crew rotate a gun mount. "But I'm sure he can!"

"I would hope so."

"Utah?"

Looking around, Ari smiled at the sight of the older girl sliding into harbor. Utah bore the marks of training, but she carried them well. The proud old dreadnought may not have been a fighter anymore, but she still had the grace of her lineage.

"Yes. My boilers require maintenance, or I would be out helping in his new training program." There was a hint of pain in Utah's voice.

Ari couldn't help but wince in sympathy, "Are you alright?"

"I'm fine, Arizona. Just...old and tired."

More tired than she might let on, if what Ari heard in her older cousin's voice was real. Boiler problems translated to heart problems, in a ship spirit. Utah had to be hurting if her crew needed to bring her back into harbor to be maintained. And there was nothing she could do to help the older girl but be moral support either.

Times like this, I wish I could leave my hull. Admiral Thompson's stories about us in his time...

The battleship smiled at the memory of those talks, those stories. Hearing about being able to sail on the waves in her human body? It was so nice to imagine! But, Ari couldn't do that for now. She was stuck aboard her hull, and could only watch as Utah pulled into her berth.

"Well, let me know if you need anything!" Ari smiled at the other ship, well aware Utah couldn't see her.

"I will. Thank you." There was genuine appreciation in Utah's voice, before the older girl probably went to sleep to rest while she was repaired.

Turning away from Utah, Arizona instead looked back to her crew.

"Hey, Carl?" One of the gunners was saying as he leaned against a gun. "Why're we doin this again?"

"Cap'n says we need to be ready for air attack."

"Why though? Ain't that what those flyboys are for?"

"'Course, but they can't cover us all the time."

One of the other men snorted, "I'd kill for a posting on one of those carriers. You seen how big Sister Sara is? Probably a lot less cramped than being stuck on this old wagon."

"Jeez man, don't say that shit." The first gunner looked around warily. "What if Cap hears ya? Not to mention, haven't you heard those stories about Utah?"

"What, that she's haunted?"

"Exactly! Freaky stuff is happenin on that ship, and it's not just Utah! We're like, the only ship in the fleet it isn't happening on."

Ari winced at that, her ever present smile fading slightly. She was so focused on helping Admiral Thompson personally, that she had yet to do any work on talking with her own crew. It was...just so nice talking with the Admiral. She loved spending time with him. Working with him! And it had left her not spending any effort on her own crew. Not like Utah, who claimed she was close to a breakthrough. Or Cali, who seemed to enjoy messing with her crew more than actually working with them. And then there was Ari...who just didn't do anything.

She probably should change that.

"Utah?"

"Hmm?" the tired old battleship hummed.

"How...how do you talk to your crew?"

"Ah. I was wondering when you would want to try that, Arizona." There was a hint of amusement in Utah's voice now. "I would suggest you try talking with your Captain first. Or your Admiral. It is more likely to work than a random member of your crew."

"So I just...go up to him?"

"That is what I have done, yes. I have yet to manage an actual conversation however."

Ari bit her lip, worriedly clenching at her skirt, "What about talking to my whole crew?"

Utah was silent, before she hummed in thought again, "Intercom? We are able to use our radios, so logically..."

"Oh! I can try that!"

"I would suggest you try talking with your officers first, Arizona. That is why I have yet to try using my intercom myself."

The gentle chastising in Utah's tone was almost...motherly. Ari blushed slightly at that, as she recognized the logic in that request. She might do a bit more than scare her crew senseless, if they had a disembodied woman speaking through her speakers. Probably better to talk with her Captain first in that regard. She just wanted to help though!

But, pushing too hard or too fast...

'If I try to push too hard or too fast, all I'll do is make enemies.'

That was what Admiral Thompson had told her, the first time they had really talked about his plans. Maybe she lacked the 'making enemies' part of his statement, but she had taken his words to heart. Pushing too fast was going to cause problems if she...if they...weren't careful, wasn't it? Utah was right, just like the Admiral was right. Ari wanted to help, but she didn't want to make things worse for those she was trying to help. Especially for Admiral Thompson, who had enough to work on as it was. She would hate if she hurt him, by pushing too fast.

Especially since it may come back on him, somehow, if she talked with her crew like that.

"I want to help, but I don't want to mess up," Ari smiled softly, as she shook her head, "Right. Time to try talking with my Captain and Admiral!"
With that plan in mind, the battleship spun on her heel. She left her sailors behind, moving into her superstructure. She knew from long years of life, exactly where her Captain or Admiral were likely to be. So she just had to find them, and do her best! Because USS Arizona was not going to do anything but her best. It was the least she could do, to thank the man who had shown her what it was like to talk with people.

She could never repay Admiral Thompson for that, but every little thing helped.



And thus, do I update two stories (well, Indy was an omake to be fair) at once.

Now to crash because it is entirely too late here.
Very nice chapter.

Things are changing by mere existence. This could really shake things up down the road. First a change of date. What's next? Early development of jet aircraft? I like the possibilities this leaves open. And the fact Thompson is trying to get into contat with his family should be something to see.

Ari is just so adorable. She's going to do her best. Hopefully getting her Captain and Admiral up to speed won't be too excessively difficult. I really liked her talk with Utah. It wa short and sweet, but I still really liked it. :)

Sara? Sara, what are you doing? What are you doing with this shipping. You are trying to raise a flag. Why are you trying to raise a flag?

It begins.
Kongou is Admiral-sexual.

Her catch-phrase is "BURNING LOVE!"

You do the math. :p
Kongou loves her Admiral.

Unquestioningly and absolutely.
 
If it isn't Butterflied on starting DEC 6 Ari is in for a 6 Day Checkup with the ShipDoc USS Vestal. Which may have caused response lag on Dec 7 do to repair crews fixing minor stuff around her.
 
So, what are the odds that the other nations have admirals that have been sent to the past? If this really is an Abyssal plot, I don't think they'd limit themselves to just one, American admiral. It would also explain why Europe is butterflying despite James having nothing to do with it.

Hm, I wonder if Goto is trapped on Kongou...
 
"Oh." Sara smiled slightly, turning her head to look out the porthole. And away from him, for some reason.
Oh ho. Sara's plotting I think. *sees later* Yep.

More tired than she might let on, if what Ari heard in her older cousin's voice was real. Boiler problems translated to heart problems, in a ship spirit.
That's a little worrisome to me. Depending on the level of maintenance needed, will Utah even last till the attack?

Still, Arizona's exuberance in suggesting the intercom idea is delightful. Very nice update.

Hm, I wonder if Goto is trapped on Kongou...
alt!Goto: "Why the hell do I keep hearing "BURNING LOVE" every so often when no-one's around?!"
 
So, one way to jump-start this process would be to run some live-fire torpedo tests of his own. Maybe he'd need permission from Richardson to conduct it, but it shouldn't be hard to convince him to do some kind of such testing. Given how pervasive the problems were, they'd become apparent pretty quickly.
You have to wonder what the reaction of the Command staff will be if/when they find out that thanks to BuOrd 9/10s of their torpedo arsenal is worthless.

Sure most might not like the carriers (damn uppity punk kids) but if their torpedoes are shite what about those mounted on the destroyers and submarines? That's a fair chunk of the collective fleet's expected firepower suddenly lost.
 
You have to wonder what the reaction of the Command staff will be if/when they find out that thanks to BuOrd 9/10s of their torpedo arsenal is worthless.
They're not worthless they simply require a stronger spring on the firing pin to account for the increased force of impact. It's one of the simplest fixes ever once they actually know what is going on.
 
They're not worthless they simply require a stronger spring on the firing pin to account for the increased force of impact. It's one of the simplest fixes ever once they actually know what is going on.
I'm sorry, but no. They require more fixes than that. They need several. Review of the Mark 13 found twelve defects that, even individually, would prevent it from being a successful torpedo.

By 1942 poor combat performance had made it apparent that there were problems with the Mark 13, as 40 out of 44 torpedo bombers were lost at the Battle of Midway without scoring a single hit:

Despite the complications that were attending the other phases of torpedo development, the Bureau of Ordnance considered the aircraft torpedo problem so important that it was assigned the highest priority at the Newport Station. The improvements and modifications of 1942 and 1943 still left the weapon unpopular, however, and production problems were as great as those stemming from incomplete development. In mid-1943 an analysis of 105 torpedoes dropped at speeds in excess of 150 knots showed clearly why aviators distrusted the Mark 13: 36 percent ran cold, 20 percent sank, 20 percent had poor deflection performance, 18 percent gave unsatisfactory depth performance, 2 percent ran on the surface, and only 31 percent gave a satisfactory run. The total in excess of 100 percent proved that many torpedoes were subject to more than one of the defects, just as the bulk of the problems were still due to the effects of poor air stabilization on water behavior. Better performance at reduced aircraft speeds was small comfort since aviators could not be held down by paper restrictions that imposed serious and dangerous handicaps in combat. And even when they accepted the limitations, the water entry behavior of the torpedo produced frequent hooking and broaching. Time promised to complicate the problem still further. Unsatisfactory for existing planes, the torpedo would certainly fail to utilize the potentialities of aircraft then under development.

Confronted with such a problem, the Bureau felt that it had two alternatives: it could accept the Mark 13 as an interim weapon with recognized tactical limitations and initiate the design of a new torpedo, or it could concentrate on eliminating the known defects in the existing weapon. To attempt both might spread effort too thin to assure success in either venture. The first alternative involved predictable delay, since the Bureau estimated that 2 years would be required to move a weapon from conception to production. On the other hand, 12 known defects seemed to preclude immediate success in converting the Mark 13 into an effective aircraft torpedo. Neither alternative was considered alone, so the Bureau decided to increase its resources and follow both at once. The National Defense Research Committee was appealed to for aid, and in late 1942 it accepted a double-barreled order from the Bureau. The Committee was given a blank check to produce a new aircraft torpedo, the Mark 25, for tactical use at 350 knots launching speed, and it agreed to aid the Bureau in making immediate improvements to the Mark 13.[6]

The Committee tasked the California Institute of Technology to undertake the first systematic study of the dynamics of aerial launched torpedoes. Tank tests using scale models revealed that the "low and slow" approach that had been presumed necessary for a successful drop was actually counterproductive: striking the water at a flat angle frequently caused the after body of the torpedo to "slap", damaging the mechanism. Full scale testing simulated aerial torpedo drops under controlled conditions by pneumatically launching full size torpedoes down a 300 foot slide on California's Morris Dam into a mountain lake known for its clarity, allowing all aspects of the water entry to be examined utilizing high-speed photography. Fragile or vulnerable components were improved, tested, refined, and tested again. Improved components were shipped to Newport Rhode Island for air drop testing - 4,300 drops in all. The CalTech study led to the development of "drag rings" that slowed and stabilized the torpedo in flight and cushioned its impact with the water, "shroud rings" (also known as the "ring tail") that reinforced the vulnerable tail fins, and a box-shaped wooden tail that stabilized the torpedo in flight and absorbed energy as it was stripped off as the torpedo entered the water. These had already been observed in use on the operational Japanese Type 91 torpedo, most obviously at the Battle of the Coral Sea, on May 8, 1942.

Experiment soon revealed that optimum water entry angles were approximately 22-32 degrees relative to the plane of the surface: the torpedo might plunge as deep as 50 feet but it would return to its set depth and bearing if the mechanism was undamaged. This enabled the US Navy to develop a series of attack profiles that varied the combination of speed and altitude to produce the ideal 20-30 degree water entry angle. For the TBM/TBF Avenger torpedo bomber this meant drop altitudes as high as 800 feet and drop speeds as high as 260 knots which the Avenger could achieve by diving to the release point. This was an attack profile outside anything Japanese anti-aircraft fire was designed to counter. Multiple attack profile options also allowed strike planners to de-conflict attack routes by assigning each torpedo squadron a different attack profile, greatly reducing the risk of mid-air collision over the target. Finally, there was the added benefit of increased range, as the torpedo traveled a significant distance in the air before entering the water (up to 1000 yards when released at 800 feet and 300 mph). Combined with radar that delivered the exact range to the target, the results proved to be remarkable:[7]

New planes outdated [the] Torpedo Mark 13, but drag rings and stabilizers renewed its usefulness. Throughout 1943 torpedo performance remained poor, but the following year witnessed a revolution in the behavior of the Mark 13. Minor changes to the propeller blades and a reduction in gyro damage helped, but the greatest improvement resulted from the stabilizing effects of two appendages--the drag ring and the shroud ring.

The first assembly, known familiarly as the pickle barrel, was readied for use by 1944. Early experiments with parachutes attached to aircraft torpedoes had demonstrated that a drag had a beneficial effect on the airflight characteristics of the weapon. While parachutes did not appear [to be] the solution to the problem, discovery of the principle involved led to the development of the drag ring. Constructed of plywood, the ring was attached to the head of a torpedo and served as a stabilizer for the period that the weapon was airborne. Oscillations were reduced and the ring effected a 40 percent deceleration in air speed, then acted as a shock absorber when the torpedo struck water. Better water entry, a byproduct of air stabilization, reduced damage so substantially that pilots were able to increase the heights and speeds at which torpedoes were released.

The drag ring went a long way toward making the Mark 13 a reliable torpedo, but underwater performance still called for improvement. By midsummer 1944, however, the shroud ring developed by the California Institute of Technology completed the torpedo revolution that had seemed so remote the year before. Almost an exact duplicate of an assembly developed by Newport in 1871, the shroud ring was made to fit over the tail blades of the torpedo. Known to pilots as the ring tail, it produced a steady water run by reducing hooks and broaches and eliminating much of the water roll which characterized the Mark 13. Speed and range were reduced but slightly. Early tests showed that ring-tailed torpedoes took too deep an initial dive, but readjustments of controls soon remedied that last obstacle. Hot, straight, and normal runs approached 100 percent, and the once critical battle reports soon became enthusiastic in praise of the Mark 13. Even psychologically, the appendages contributed to success,since the external design of the torpedo equipped with a pickle barrel and ring tail and the improved appearance of its underwater travel caught the fancy of the airmen.

To speed the availability of the modified torpedo the Bureau built tail assemblies with the shroud ring attached, then sent them to the fleet as substitutes for the equipment on hand. By the fall of 1944 the revamped weapon had a wide distribution. As a result of the new improvements, torpedo drops at altitudes up to 800 feet and at speeds up to 300 knots were authorized. Experience soon indicated that these limits could be extended even further. On one occasion in early 1945, 6 Mark 13 torpedoes were released from altitudes between 5000 and 7000 feet; 5 out of the 6 were observed to run hot, straight, and normal. Combat use increased rapidly and the new effectiveness seemed out of all proportion to the changes made. On one air strike on April 7, 1945. Mark 13's sent to the bottom the 45,000 ton (sic) battleship Yamato, a light cruiser, and several destroyers. Months before the end of the war the Mark 13 was universally accepted as the best aircraft torpedo owned by any nation.[6]

So yeah. The Mark 13 was arguably the worst of the lot. If Thompson can "incidentally" reveal just how bad these torpedoes are in his upcoming live exercise, then he would have grounds to raise enough hell (and inspire other officers to do the same) to have ALL the torpedoes checked in extensive live-fire testing. And when such testing reveals that they're all horrendous, heads will roll.

Sub commanders will definitely be persistent about this, seeing as torpedoes are just about their only viable weapon. And seeing as torpedoes are a major part of the very purpose of destroyers...yeah.
 
Last edited:
And here's some more info on the Mark 14:
The Mark 14 torpedo had four major flaws.

  • It tended to run about 10 feet (3.0 m) deeper than set.
  • The magnetic exploder often caused premature firing.
  • The contact exploder often failed to fire the warhead.
  • It tended to run "circular", failing to straighten its run once set on its prescribed gyro-angle setting, and instead, to run in a large circle, thus returning to strike the firing ship.
Running too deep
The torpedo tended to run some ten feet (3 meters) too deep for several reasons. The first was that it was only tested with an exercise warhead filled with water to set the depth. However, the live warhead contained more mass than that, and it reached buoyancy equilibrium at a lower depth.[33] Also, the depth mechanism was designed prior to the warhead's charge being increased, making the torpedo even heavier overall. Furthermore, two depth testing devices used by NTS to verify results were both off by the same amount in the same direction, which compounded the problem. After hearing of the problem, most submarine skippers simply set their torpedoes' running depth to zero,[34] risking a broach. By August 1942, the faulty running depth situation was in hand and submarines were getting more hits with the Mark 14. However, curing the deep-running problem caused more prematures and duds, as more hits were being achieved. The number of sinkings did not rise.[35]

A more serious reason for the torpedoes running deep was hydrodynamic flow effect on the torpedo's depth sensor. The pressure tap for the torpedo had been placed in the rear cone section where the measured pressure would be substantially lower than hydrostatic depth while the torpedo was moving through the water. The torpedo's depth control engine was therefore given erroneously shallow depth indication and responded by trimming the torpedo to run deeper. This was finally addressed in the last half of 1943 by relocating the sensor point to the midbody of the torpedo where hydrodynamic effects were minimized.[36]

Premature explosions


Mark 6 Mod 1 exploder used early in the war.[37] Later on it was replaced with the Mark 6 Mod 5.
Many submarine commanders in the first two years of the war reported explosions of the warhead with little to no damage of the enemy. The magnetic exploders were triggering prematurely, before getting close enough to the vessel to destroy it. Earth's magnetic field near NTS, where the trials (limited as they were)[38] were conducted, differed from the areas where the fighting was taking place.

Duds
Early reports of torpedo action included some dud hits, heard as a dull clang. In a few instances, Mark 14s would strike a Japanese ship and lodge in its hull without exploding. The contact pistol appeared to be malfunctioning, though the conclusion was anything but clear until running depth and magnetic exploder problems were solved. Daspit's experience was exactly the sort of live-fire trial BuOrd had been prevented from doing in peacetime. It was now clear to all at Pearl Harbor the contact pistol was also defective. Ironically, a direct hit on the target at a 90 degree angle, as recommended in training, would result in a failure to detonate; the exploder only functioned when the torpedo impacted the target at an oblique angle.

Circular runs
There were numerous reports of the Mark 14 running erratically and circling back on the firing boat. This is known to have sunk at least one submarine, Tullibee.[39] Likewise, Sargo was almost sunk by a circular. The subsequent Mark 18 torpedo was no better, sinking Tang. The Mark 15 torpedo had collars to prevent circular runs, but the Mark 14 was never given this feature.
You know your torpedoes are that bad when your own subs run the risk of (and some have) been sunk by their own torpedoes.
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry, but no. They require more fixes than that. They need several.
I was referring to the mk 14 which was used on the submarines 9/10 failing to detonate is a pretty nasty problem to have but also had a very easy fix. I didn't realise that they also had crazy issues with their air dropped torpedoes. Though I should have expected it.
 
Back
Top