Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

Most of the US warcrimes, like not taking prisoners or accepting surrenders, happen because every other time we did accepted the Japanese where just waiting to get close to pull the grenade pin or stab the highest ranking guy in arm reached. You can see why we stopped taking Japanese surrenders.


As for radiological tests it only happen once during operations plumbob. Which was a necessary evil cause it was a needed thing to know plus it helped out in the long

Biological test are illegal as all get out now so that's still not happening.
Just by skimming it seems to be its allowed with consent which is far better then just picking a poor sap to do it one
 
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interesting.

Sweden did a few nasty things during the last century, forced sterilisations on people who changed their gender etc
 
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I feel like I should make a note before this devolves into endless debate:

Remember, this is written in-character. James doesn't necessarily know everything that everyone did during the war, or before the war, or right after the war. The Nazi and Soviet crimes are something anyone with a cursory knowledge in WW2 could know. The former because...well...Nazis. The latter because it's easy to find stuff like Katyn if you look deeper at the War in Europe.

Does he know what Japan did? Perhaps, perhaps not.

(and out of character, I never denied that the Allies did bad stuff. NOTHING along the lines of what the Axis and Sovs did, though. There is a reason 'War is Hell' is a thing.)
 
With the Japanese unless he really looked into it he wouldn't know.
The US at wars end coopted the Vermin and used what they discovered and built on it.
 
Yes. The US and British did some terrible things, particularly in the Pacific which was much more no-holds-barred then the Med or Western Europe, and some of it was indeed not necessary for the war and done more out of malice (Japanese internment, Indian famines, and Anglo-American racism towards Africans and Asians in general) but it's nothing on what the Axis or Soviets were doing.

I'm a bit concerned on those butterflies though and wondering how they might start popping up elsewhere (and also possibly steadily worsening) as time goes on. There isn't really any room for Germany to improve on in the East unless the Soviets manage to fuck-up even worse (and they fucked up so badly OTL the most likely butterflies will improve their position... which isn't as neat as it sounds for the WAllies, though, since they'll have to deal with the USSR after the war).

I wonder if there are notable differences between how downtime Bismarck (or, more likely, Tirpitz) view the war versus uptime Tirpitz. Uptime German ships probably had to go through a denazification program, but Bismarck in 1940 wouldn't know anything but German success since the worst years of the war and it's atrocities had not yet begun when she went down.
 
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With the Japanese unless he really looked into it he wouldn't know.
The US at wars end coopted the Vermin and used what they discovered and built on it.
to be fair,given that he admitted he worked with the Japanese ship girls, I'm fairly sure that'd prompt him to do some reading on the history side of things as to better understand them.

it also depends on education. I actually got taught a bit about the stuff the Japanese got up to at least to British pows in highschool.
 
Thing is, he can't stop the war, he's years too late for that. He's taking the best course he can: Saving as much as he can for as long as he can.

He's put a priority on the shipgirls because he's very emotionally connected to them, but he is trying to save as many lives as he can. He can't actually do anything about various warcrimes at this point, but he might be able to make a difference for Pearl.

So that's what he's focused on. He'll do the most good that he can where he can. That's all anyone can do.
 
The issue of his time travel does bring me something else: did what ever teleport James back in time give him a previously established history? I would assume so, given that he is treated as a official member of the downtime US Navy but this just leads to further questions. Does his teleported self have any relatives or friends? Did his downtime self behave differently? The social norms of the time are notably different and a number of entertainers who are popular at the time would be obscure to his uptimeself (not to mention modern references that would fly over the heads of the downtimers and make them view him as weird), so that would factor into his interactions with others.

If his downtime background has him behaving towards minorities in the same manner as his up time self, then (for example) he might have the reputation among southern officers who would view him as a "nigger lover" and act accordingly. If his downtime-selfs behavior was notably different from his uptime-self, then people who previously knew him are going to notice the difference and wonder what happened.
 
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The issue of his time travel does bring me something else: did what ever teleport James back in time give him a previously established history? I would assume so, given that he is treated as a official member of the downtime US Navy but this just leads to further questions. Does his teleported self have any relatives or friends? Did his downtime self behave differently? The social norms of the time are notably different and a number of entertainers who are popular at the time would be obscure to his uptimeself (not to mention modern references that would fly over the heads of the downtimers and make them view him as weird), so that would factor into his interactions with others.

If his downtime background has him behaving towards minorities in the same manner as his up time self, then (for example) he might have the reputation among southern officers who would view him as a "nigger lover" and act accordingly. If his downtime-selfs behavior was notably different from his uptime-self, then people who previously knew him are going to notice the difference and wonder what happened.

<shrug> I figure as an Admiral, he's fairly busy doing Admiral stuff so people likely don't see that much of him except in professional situations. As far as the race thing goes, he's probably too busy running a goddamn ship (plus whatever else is under his authority) to worry about keeping the black man in "his place".

And be honest, do you really want a 'fic that dwells on racial inequality in the 1940s? Or do you want a 'fic about a time traveling Admiral conspiring with the souls of warships to stop the Pearl Harbor attack?
 
<shrug> I figure as an Admiral, he's fairly busy doing Admiral stuff so people likely don't see that much of him except in professional situations. As far as the race thing goes, he's probably too busy running a goddamn ship (plus whatever else is under his authority) to worry about keeping the black man in "his place".

And be honest, do you really want a 'fic that dwells on racial inequality in the 1940s? Or do you want a 'fic about a time traveling Admiral conspiring with the souls of warships to stop the Pearl Harbor attack?

You're missing my point. I wasn't bringing these up to advocate for a 'fic that dwells on racial inequality but to note that the background for whatever entity sent him back in time has established for him and how he behaves in the downtime relative to both that background and the social norms of the time are factors which can and will complicate his interaction with others and hence the impact he has on history.

And like anyone else senior officers do have personal lives outside of their work, even during a major war. Eisenhower was known to play Bridge, Zhukov frequently wrote to his wife, and Montgomery was noted for having all kinds of quirky incidents among his staff just to name a very few examples. Maybe James downtime does have a reputation as a loner even during his downtime, something which could facilitate interaction with shipgirls and allow him to keep other officers at arms length, but there will be those officers and figures from history who he will have to deal with and whose personality he will clash with.
 
You're missing my point. I wasn't bringing these up to advocate for a 'fic that dwells on racial inequality but to note that the background for whatever entity sent him back in time has established for him and how he behaves in the downtime relative to both that background and the social norms of the time are factors which can and will complicate his interaction with others and hence the impact he has on history.

And like anyone else senior officers do have personal lives outside of their work, even during a major war. Eisenhower was known to play Bridge, Zhukov frequently wrote to his wife, and Montgomery was noted for having all kinds of quirky incidents among his staff just to name a very few examples. Maybe James downtime does have a reputation as a loner even during his downtime, something which could facilitate interaction with shipgirls and allow him to keep other officers at arms length, but there will be those officers and figures from history who he will have to deal with and whose personality he will clash with.

Fair enough.

God I hope he can save Arizona and the rest of the girls.
 
Fair enough.

God I hope he can save Arizona and the rest of the girls.
I am not that optimistic. For one thing he has to make sure the carriers are away from pearl when the attack begins. and he has to make the choice of leaving several battleships behind in the harbor to lure the Japs in while the takes the more advanced battleships to a safe place to ride out the attack. And then he has to make sure that the Battleship admirals don't do something stupid like taking those battleships in pursuit of the Japanese fleet because they are no longer able to fight them. that's why they need the carriers.
 
and he has to make the choice of leaving several battleships behind in the harbor to lure the Japs in while the takes the more advanced battleships to a safe place to ride out the attack.
True, but even simply having the ships' crews on alert during that fateful morning might save at least a couple ships from taking lethal damage. I hold no illusions that BB row won't still take a beating, but it may be survivable.
 
This is pretty interesting. I'm curious to see what butterfly the Admiral can continue to cause in this pre-WWII world.
 
True, but even simply having the ships' crews on alert during that fateful morning might save at least a couple ships from taking lethal damage. I hold no illusions that BB row won't still take a beating, but it may be survivable.
The Navy's final analysis of Pearl Harbor indicated that Utah, Oklahoma, Arizona, and West Virginia would have sunk no matter what watertight condition the ships had set before the attack (Utah, Oklahoma, and West Virginia were opened up by too many torpedoes, and Arizona... well, a magazine explosion is pretty much fatal for any armored ship), but the other two battleships sunk in the attack (Nevada and California) would have stayed afloat had they not been opened up for inspections. Likewise, the destroyers Cassin and Downes were definitely going to be destroyed there in the drydock with Pennsylvania; there's just not much that can be done when a bomb rolls one ship onto another and the two then burn themselves out completely.

Ironically, of the four ships that were going to sink no matter what, there likely would have been little difference, long-term, in the results of the attack. Utah was basically not going to be economical to salvage and return to service under any circumstances, and having been demilitarized, there was a lot less that her crew could do to protect the ship. Arizona took a "golden BB" hit that, through some chain of events, detonated her forward magazine, basically blowing her in two. (The exact mechanism is still up for debate, though I personally think Norman Friedman's summary, based on the official Navy reports of her loss, to be the most likely--a bomb that didn't penetrate her armor deck started an oil fire, and burning oil poured down a non-watertight hatch to cook off the black powder magazine for her catapult, which then caused sympathetic detonation of the adjacent smokeless powder magazine for her main battery.) Oklahoma likely would have capsized, even if Condition Z had been set before the attack, because she took so many torpedoes on the same side in such a short period of time that there wouldn't have been time to counterflood her so she sank upright, like was done with West Virginia. WeeVee probably would have still sunk upright due to the amount of her side that was opened, but with enough time between hits to allow for counterflooding. Thus you'd have ended up with West Virginia sitting on the bottom, upright, and completely burned out, but relatively easily salvageable, Arizona blown up, Oklahoma on the bottom and belly-up, and Utah in a similar state. Utah wouldn't have been worth salvaging for anything other than scrap, Arizona was beyond hope of salvage, and while Oklahoma was salvageable, it would have taken enough time and done enough further damage that, as in real life, the only value in salvaging her would have been to clear the berth; even if she could have been repaired by the end of the war, she would have been of only marginal value at that point--hence why, in our timeline, she was simply shoved into an out-of-the-way corner of the Harbor until the end of the war, then towed away to be scrapped. (Her salvage involved cutting away everything above the weather deck except her turrets and barbettes, even the stuff that wasn't damaged by being crushed against the bottom, to lighten her enough to refloat.)

This, of course, does not take into consideration the effects that being alerted to the raid would have had on air defense during it, and any reductions it might have made in the number of weapons successfully delivered--merely points out that two-thirds of the capital ship losses at Pearl were unavoidable given the damage suffered, regardless of the ships' alert status during the raid.
 
@rdfox
A nice analysis. I already said I don't dispute that the BBs would still take a massive beating. But at the very least, Oklahoma and Arizona, if sunk, would be less likely to be rendered unsalvageable imo.
 
This is pretty interesting. I'm curious to see what butterfly the Admiral can continue to cause in this pre-WWII world.
Well, WWII is already in full swing. I think the Battle of Britain is currently raging, France, Norway, Denmark and Poland have already fallen.
 
Just setting out the torpedo nets would probably be enough to save Oklahoma. And active gunners would probably stop that golden BB on Arizona.
WeeVee was salvaged OTL, so there's less danger there, but the torpedo nets would get her back faster.

I don't know what you could do with Utah, but maybe a prepared air defense would stop enough planes to save her?

A prepared air defense would also mean the possibility of only one wave-costs being high enough to make the Japanese think twice.

One VERY important thing to do, though, is to get the tank farm buried. In the wake of the attack, the USN thanked its lucky stars that the years of hoarding to build up fuel at Pearl weren't destroyed-it turns out they were way low down on the target list, but that might change.
 
Yamamoto's appreciation for the impossibility of victory over the US was what drove him to insist on attacking Pearl Harbor--gambling that wrecking the American Pacific Fleet might just buy enough time for Japan to fortify their conquests enough to hold off the American counterattacks. It was an incredible longshot, but Yamamoto recognized it was the only way to achieve a stalemate--not even a victory, a stalemate--against the US.
And Ironically enough, that very action guaranteed that the USA would fight the war until their victory and Japanese defeat. In fact, the entire Japanese strategy seems to me as if it was quite self-defeating.

IXjac has a ton of info on this back on SB. Here's one good bit.
Why did WW 2 Japan did not develop better ASW | Page 2
No, Yamamoto badly misread the strategic situation, and indeed ignored all logistical good sense in his plan for the war. Oh, he certainly realized America's vast industrial superiority, but the plan he and others in the IJN leadership chose to wage the war was still a counterproductive way of trying to solve it. There are several reasons why Yamamoto's plan for Pearl Harbor - and the IJN's plan for the Pacific War as a whole - were terrible missteps.

The first is that the war plan the Americans had been intending to follow since the mid 1930's involved the USN avoiding decisive battle (the battlefleet was expressly forbidden to sail much further west than Wake), and letting the Japanese conquer the Western Pacific at the outbreak of the war. The reason for the strike on Pearl was to prevent the USN from interfering in Japan's early conquests, but in fact USN plans make it clear that with or without Pearl Harbor, the American navy had no intention of offering more than token resistance to those conquests anyway. What Yamato instead did was solve the greatest problem that had worried the minds of the USN's planners. They were sure they could militarily win a long war, but they were deeply unsure that the will of the American people to see Japan defeated would last through several years, particularly when the first year or two of the war might see very little fighting at all. On 7 December 1941, Yamamoto solved this most pressing problem for his enemies at a stroke, and ensured his nation's defeat.

The second is that had the Japanese actually wanted to bring about a short war, they went about it entirely the wrong way. Their rapid expansion over a vast arc of island fortresses ensured it would take the returning Americans time to slowly batter their way to the Home Islands. This meant that Japan would have to wage a long, and logistically demanding war far from home and over the vast reaches of the Pacific, consuming vast quantities of shipping and fuel - things it had cripplingly limited quantities of, and which America had the ability to produce a terrifying surplus. This point needs to be reinforced - the Japanese actually weakened their economy with their conquests. Despite the rich resources they conquered, their excessive band of island forts consumed too much shipping to maintain, leaving too little to bring home the vital raw materials needed to sustain the industries of the Home Islands. Nevertheless, and against all reason, it was hoped by the Japanese planners that at some point over this grinding period of attrition the American will to pursue the war would break - but this implicitly recognized the war could be a very long affair - exactly the kind of contest with America that Japan could never win. Basically their strategy was schizophrenically divided against itself.

Had Japan actually wanted a short war, she would have had to go about it very differently. One advantage the Japanese could have exploited (but never did) was the advantage of interior lines of communication, and the vast distance from the American western seaboard to the Home Islands and the vital shipping lanes to Indonesia. Japan would have had a massive advantage had she been able to draw the American fleet into a battle in the Western Pacific early in the war, a fact that the USN's planners (but interestingly - not the IJNs own strategists) immediately recognized, hence their injunction about the fleet sailing too far west at war's start. Unfortunately, despite the caution of USN planners, the US Army and General MacArthur had already given the Japanese a means to bait a trap: the Philippines. The USN never intended the Philippines to be held, but MacArthur and the Army dreamed otherwise, and even entertained unrealistic hopes of the Navy sailing across the Pacific to save them (something the USN had never intended to do, Pearl Harbor or no). However, had there been no strike on Pearl, had the Philippines not been conquered so quickly, and had the Army been screaming for an intact battlefleet to come to their aid, it is conceivable that, against all their better judgement, the USN could have been induced (or ordered from Washington) to cross the Pacific and meet its doom in just the kind of early decisive battle the Japanese wanted and needed. In this way Pearl Harbor was another gift to the US Navy.

The historical Japanese warplan precluded all of this, and actually played right into the American's hands. Before the war, USN planners actually considered the possibility of a strike on Pearl (although they assumed it would take the shape of a battleship bombardment). They discounted it as too stupid to contemplate - a strike on America itself being the one thing the Japanese had to realize would rile the US populace and make the war a fight to the finish they couldn't win. They were terrified that if the Japanese failed to give them sufficient popular cause for war (it was not expected that an attack solely on the Europeans would suffice), the American people would lose interest, and America would ultimately accept a negotiated peace. They also considered an early lunge across the Pacific to save the Philippines as the best chance the Japanese fleet would ever have to win a decisive early battle, with the IJN fighting close to home and flush with supplies, while the US fleet far from any source of support and on the end of a tennuous logistics trail. It was thus fortunate for them that the Japanese plans neatly precluded either of these eventualities - as American planners had assumed for a decade that they would.

But if the Americans read the overall Japanese strategy like a book in the pre-war years (a fact that the shock of Pearl Harbor sometimes obscures), then the Japanese completely misread their opponents, while ignoring their own limitations. It's a shame that many of Japan's false pre-war judgements have still made it into our popular understanding of the war (the American plans that refute these remained secret for several decades after the war's end), making it seem like Yamamoto's raid on Pearl Harbor actually had a point, and that the plan for the chain of island forts was ever a viable way for a logistically fragile nation like Japan to wage war - rather than just being the culmination of a colossal misjudging of the strategic situation by the Japanese military leadership.
 
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