I will buy-in to Mirai shredding Wasp's air wing, but I share rdfox's skepticism of a single tomahawk outright destroying her.
Changing Destiny (Kancolle)
- Thread starter Skywalker_T-65
- Start date
Burning Baron
This position needs more entrenching.
- Location
- In here, not out there.
How would they know to look for the incredibly small thing in the air, instead of large aircraft? The approach vector is skimming along the surface. The only reason a CAP would be at sea level is because of torpedo bombers.
Not outright kill, but a hull penetration is near guaranteed. That's what it's designed to do. I can't find any numbers, since everyone likes to talk about the TLAM, and nobody really discusses the TASM, as far as I can tell.
PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
So, first, a Tomahawk is significantly faster than any contemporary aircraft (as in, 550 mph vs the ~440 mph of the best contemporary fighters, to say nothing of the 320 mph her embarked F4F-4 Wildcats are capable of), meaning period AA is very, very unlikely to hit the damn thing even if they see it coming in.
Second, Wasp's design notes say that she's basically doomed to die like she did OTL from her first serious hit, because she's built pretty incredibly fragile (at least by USN standards) in order to stuff a full up fleet carrier's air wing into her.
Still a laughable scene in Zipang. IRL, she was hit by three torps with ~900 lb. warheads pretty much at her avgas tanks and magazine areas, and still took hours to finally sink beneath the waves (after being torped three more times by the USN to scuttle her, to boot). The Tomhawk hit in Zipang occurred near the top of the ship.
ijnfleetadmiral
CinC Rengo Kanmusutai
- Location
- Admiral's Bridge, HIJMS Kongo
Exactly...CAP would be higher in the air...even if they spotted the Tomahawk, it would probably be too late to intercept.
Not to mention the fact the missile seemed to go straight into the hangar itself before detonating. As we've seen from Midway, any explosions on a carrier's hangar deck is almost-certainly fatal.
PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
Franklin, Yorktown(5), Enterprise, and Lexington all survived hits to the hangar deck. Wasp is much less durable than any of those four, but a hangar deck explosion is not the automatic death sentence that what happened to all four IJN carriers at Midway implies.
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
Exactly. A TASM is about a 1000 pound warhead plus the impact of the missile itself, so a good baseline for it would be a kamikaze with a 1000 pound bomb aboard. It's going to make a mess of the hangar deck but if the avgas lines were purged and secured to limit secondary fires, Wasp might have a fighting chance to survive. She's going to drydock for an extended stay either way, and if the fires do become uncontrollable she's toast, but it is not a one hit kill automatically. Big Ben and E both survived roughly similar hits IOTL in 1944-45.
The big question is whether or not Wasp had enough warning to purge and secure avgas lines before the strike.
As a side note, the logistics would rapidly catch up to the Mirai since she cannot replace her munitions or fuel. She would have to pick a side ASAP just to get fuel to steam around, never mind reloading consumable munitions. Heck, food would be a problem after a bit..
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
Much as I dislike Axis of Time for many reasons (over-politicization, treating Muslims as insane, making the uptimers into people that would make the Nazis blush, wanking the hell out of the Red Army) it at least got the likely reaction of a JMSDF ship in WW2 right. Hint: it's not fight for Imperial Japan.
The crew couldn't reconcile their duty to protect Japan with fighting Japan, but instead of helping the Imperials, they handed their ship over to the American contingent. A sort of 'we can't fight our people, but we know you need our ship' situation. Only a handful of the crew hung around.
The crew couldn't reconcile their duty to protect Japan with fighting Japan, but instead of helping the Imperials, they handed their ship over to the American contingent. A sort of 'we can't fight our people, but we know you need our ship' situation. Only a handful of the crew hung around.
- Location
- Canada
First thing I thought of when I heard of Zipang's premise way back when was "I'm shocked that Japan still existed enough for there to be an epilogue, but what can you expect from a revisionist wannabe-Japan-wank that ran facefirst into economic reality?"
Second thought was "Time to amp up the realism of my own TL planning by taking the lid off Japan's nastier projects i.e. spreading plague and syphilis among the civilians to try to slow down or at least spite the invaders."
To put it clearly: I, and basically all of East Asia except Japan itself, loathe Japan's revisionism and inability to admit fault.
EDIT: Flapping jaws and thereby passing gas in others' general direction while teaching your kids that you did nothing wrong will never count as admitting fault.
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- Location
- North Carolina
Another thing is that just by looking at, Wasp was spotting an air strike. Her hangers would've had full avgas, there likely would've been ordinance being loaded up, plus the planes on the deck. The TASM hit would've just ripped her apart.
Indeed. Having watched pretty much all the video Wasp's deck was full of planes about to launch when the missile impacted. The initial explosion was bad but it wasn't that bad but there were a lot of secondary explosions. I'm pretty sure it was those secondary explosions that killed the Wasp there.
The whole premise of the series is still stupid but that fight isn't that bad.
- Location
- USA
But this is something that literally all countries do. China sure as hell is never going to talk about exactly how its population came to be 90% ethnic Han, despite being one of the largest countries in the world with the world's largest population. Nor is the UK generally okay with speaking about the literal thousands of tons of poison gas it stockpiled in case of Operation Sealion, nor does France enjoy the topic of Algeria and the Pied-Noirs, Belgium and the Congo, and a million other examples I can pull out of my ass.
Every country in the world has a vocal percentage of its population that will not accept that their country has ever done wrong ever. It's a mistake to generalize that all of Japan is made up of raving ultra-nationalists who reject Nanking, and Unit 734 entirely, the same way its a mistake to think all of the USA is made up of gun toting rednecks bent on showing Russia, China and the pesky Euros who's boss with the atom bomb.
As much as everyone talks about Japan never apologizing, it has. List of war apology statements issued by Japan - Wikipedia
These are made with varying amounts of sincerity and, actual honesty, but please understand that its never ever as simple as "they won't apologize", or "they won't talk about Palestine", or "why are we taking so many immigrants in". There will never be a simple answer in politics, that is also truly right.
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- Location
- Canada
snipped for length.
China was historically geographic Extreme Easy Mode with protective mountains/jungles to the southwest, desert to the northwest, etc. protecting it. It ended up fat, decadent and unambitious as a result, at least in territorial ambitions, as holding together was hard enough already.
China is also the least expansionist major historical civilization I am aware of except perhaps Egypt. Its slow growth over many dynasties was driven by diffusion into bordering regions and assimilation, then the next dynasty considering that part of integral China i.e. slow blobbing instead of what the Americans did in their Indian Wars (basically Three Alls back when it was socially acceptable to do it, a massive short-term land grab instead of gradual nibbling).
The Han ethnic identification of today was really put in place by Mongols. Before that, the regionalism was pretty strong between areas of China. Misery under the Mongols led to most of the oppressed groups uniting to strike them down as the Han ethnicity we know today.
The US reached present size in 100 years. China took over 2000 years (Zhou to Yuan) to undergo a more or less comparable increase in claimed land area. Those living in glass houses ought to not throw stones on the subject of expansionism.
China is also the least expansionist major historical civilization I am aware of except perhaps Egypt. Its slow growth over many dynasties was driven by diffusion into bordering regions and assimilation, then the next dynasty considering that part of integral China i.e. slow blobbing instead of what the Americans did in their Indian Wars (basically Three Alls back when it was socially acceptable to do it, a massive short-term land grab instead of gradual nibbling).
The Han ethnic identification of today was really put in place by Mongols. Before that, the regionalism was pretty strong between areas of China. Misery under the Mongols led to most of the oppressed groups uniting to strike them down as the Han ethnicity we know today.
The US reached present size in 100 years. China took over 2000 years (Zhou to Yuan) to undergo a more or less comparable increase in claimed land area. Those living in glass houses ought to not throw stones on the subject of expansionism.
Ishihara Shintaro got elected mayor of Tokyo. With his revisionist nationalist political views and proudly expressed "menopausal women are useless and should all die" sentiment, the Japanese show they like and agree with him enough to elect him
What impression, exactly, is this supposed to give everyone else? "Oh we're sorry about what happened back then, but we support this guy who says you guys are all full of bullshit and that none of that ever happened. In fact, we support him sooooo much we put him in charge of our capital!"
East Asia will never forget Japan's crimes just by them passing gas in our general direction over and over again, until they change their textbooks at the very least. Continuously telling others you are sorry while telling your own people that you were completely justified means the others are going to see you as the dangerous once and future aggressor.
Flapping jaws mean less than nothing when Japanese textbooks still deny, deny, DENY.
Zipang is just a symptom of that denial.
I hate Japanese denialist movements (including textbook revisionism) about as much as I hate Holocaust deniers, so my apologies if some folks find this rebuttal a bit... uncivil. It is as polite as I can make it without completely losing its flavour.
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I stumbled onto Zipang about 12 years ago while on a trip to Tokyo and bought the first three volumes dual-language (still have them and willing to sell at this point).
I never really bothered to read further since there was always a better manga on the horizon. I was not aware it finished, or what the epilogue was. Could you tell me what happened?
- Location
- Canada
The epilogue is that the guy who cast the deciding vote to side with Imperial Japan sees a new ship commissioned named the Mirai, and sees its crew, the counterparts of his crew.
Everyone is there, except him, the last survivor of the translocated Mirai and the one who chose its fate.
I am bugfuck astounded that given a longer, harder, nastier war for the Allies that there would be a Japan left to launch any ships in the future. There would be far less room for war fatigue to turn into mercy in such a timeline, and with the natural consequences of a longer war, i.e. more atom bombs to throw at Japan along with a ramped-up Operation Starvation... well, anime and manga (and doujins) would not exist as we know them today...
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So Japan ultimately loses the war? I assume that borders are pretty much OTL in the post-war era.
- Location
- Canada
Yes, Japan loses.
Japan losing WWII is always inevitable without giving them a ludicrous amount of boost.
The problem is that I cannot see how a longer, nastier war wouldn't end up going the way a lot of war posters called for: annihilationism. And that was my #1 gripe with Zipang for being unrealistic in consequences.
I'm going to stop talking about Zipang now, it's off-topic and I should probably not have responded to the initial prompt about it (discussing what a Japanese time traveller could do, IIRC, in this TL). I recommend using sources such as Wikipedia.
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(going to PM or new thread for questions about Zipang summary)
Mega1987
A TTK somewhere at Kancolle's Iwagawa Airfield
- Location
- somewhere at Kancolle's Iwagawa Airfield
Do we really fan the japanese hate here?
I'm from the Philippines... And you dont see me raging about what japan have done to my country.
We do have a brief history lesson about ww2... But our history teachers never teaches us about hate japan.
Only thier experiences as some of them were children when the war broke in the philippines.....
I'm from the Philippines... And you dont see me raging about what japan have done to my country.
We do have a brief history lesson about ww2... But our history teachers never teaches us about hate japan.
Only thier experiences as some of them were children when the war broke in the philippines.....
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
It's getting a wee-bit excessive, yes. And I really can't believe I have to put this, but:
Can we please stop talking about essentially genocideing the Japanese? I don't much care about how the War may have gone in these circumstances, this isn't the thread for that.
Can we please stop talking about essentially genocideing the Japanese? I don't much care about how the War may have gone in these circumstances, this isn't the thread for that.
Mega1987
A TTK somewhere at Kancolle's Iwagawa Airfield
- Location
- somewhere at Kancolle's Iwagawa Airfield
The OP have spoken....
I think you guys should take heed....
- Location
- Canada
I did NOT learn to hate Japan.
I learnt to hate Japanese Denialists, the same idea as learning to hate Holocaust deniers.
The fact that one of their more prominent faces (Ishihara Shintaro) thinks that all post-menopause women are useless and should be killed helped me a whole lot in learning to hate them.
What I have been saying in the last few posts can be summarized as:
1) Longer war = Axis is more screwed
2) Zipang showed longer war without Japan being obliterated in the end, therefore Zipang's ending is bullshit in every sense except "Japan gets overrun"
3) Please kindly end the war quickly to reduce civilian casualties instead of dragging it out to make it seem challenging, thanks.
3a) Please don't sandbag the Allies intentionally to extend the war
4) I hate ultranationalist revisionists.
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- Location
- USA
The United States elected Donald Trump, a man who's most legendary proposal is building a wall along the entire border with Mexico for the sole purpose of keeping out illegal immigrants. A man who is gotten into shouting matches with a rogue nuclear state on twitter. Hitler was essentially voted into office with the NSDAP DNVP coalition that ended up being formed at the end of 1932. What a country votes into power has very little to do with its national character and its people, and is more related to the geopolitical pressures that a country faces at a moment in time, as well as preceding events.
As for the textbooks, Japanese history textbook controversies - Wikipedia They are visibly improving. If Wikipedia is to be believed, only a tiny number of high schools, adopts the newer hyper nationalist textbooks. Basically every country does that too though. As a person that is currently taking AP US History, I can tell you that the textbook makes me extremely angry, always wording things in a misleading if technically correct tone that makes the USA seem either as the victim or as the righteous protector of human rights.
Again, I believe staunchly that every country on Earth has people like this, and that singling out Japan for its ultra nationalists is too singularly focused on a problem that is innate to pretty much every nation on Earth.
Information: Official Staff Communication
Generic_Generica
Notice me Senpai~
- Location
- Right behind you
official staff communication
Regardless, this is a topic that'd probably be best discussed in its own thread.
Not here, not now, especially not after the OP asked you to drop this line of discussion @Guardian54.
Not here, not now, especially not after the OP asked you to drop this line of discussion @Guardian54.
- Location
- Canada
Certainly.
I was just doing the "hands up in air walking back" thing with that numerated list while noting that nobody here is talking about genocide. Sorry if it made it sound like I was continuing after Sky asked us to stop.