- Location
- Pale Blue Dot
I would expect the biggest concentrations of those angry ghosts to be centered in China, Russia, and Eastern Europe/Germany. The first one of those to kick in being China, with Russia last?
Changing Destiny (Kancolle)
- Thread starter Skywalker_T-65
- Start date
nullptr
Mostly Harmless
- Location
- The 906
Yeah, not disagreeing with you, disagreeing with the guy who said it could.
Likely her training ship fit-out. Considering her age she likely had just about zlich for AA when she had her main guns.
To take a page out of the Mythbusters Manual; "This is going to sound almost as crazy as ships having pretty young women as manifested spirits, but I need all the ping pong balls you can get, a firefighting ship, and a giant hose."
So, effectively, instead of sinking she faceplanted in a few inches of water with her ass sticking out?
Dirtnap
Kanmusu Affecionado
more like fell face first down a flight of stairs if those stairs were covered in razor blades. she literally didn't have anything above the water line identifiable as superstructure.
- Location
- Canada
Wait a second...
"Look, Locklear, it's clearly not an impossible figure, given Utah's walking around right over there examining the unconscious California." The wing commander was trying very hard to not look over at the figure of the sunken battleship, which was unconscious and had half her torso and head blown off with brains showing, probably representing that magazine detonation. Any human would be very dead from that, but since ships could be rebuilt from scraps...
"Sir, it's not possible to have a waist that thin with curves that big, without absurd corset shenanigans." Locklear gestured in front of his chest and behind his rear end for emphasis.
"...I really hope you don't put that in your memoirs."
"If I live to write memoirs, sir, I'd be grateful enough to God that I'd never properly explain why the hell I thought that."
"Thinking with the wrong head, son. It happens to all of us when we're young, too often in my opinion..."
Yes.
You are lying, Yamato, she clearly got deeper into you than that.
By your analysis, most of the Abyssals CAME FROM CHINA, NOT the Soviet Union, because the USSR's war was almost purely a land war, while China's enemy since the Century of Humiliation began was always from the sea. And before we get into Nationalist vs Communist, the angry ghosts are more likely to laugh themselves to second death by seeing how capitalist the Chinese are and how far they are from what communism is on paper, than they are likely to be angry about it.
Even if the Chinese are coexisting with the Abyssals in a Mexican Standoff (a sufficient number of nukes vs. Abyssal firepower/defence concentration) their reaction to the Japanese being besieged is probably "Guess you should have hanged way more war criminals to satisfy the vengeance of everyone you attacked... though we can't complain about Ishii's death, because that was slow and drawn-out enough for anyone."
It is far more likely that the Abyssals don't bother the old defenders nearly as much as the old aggressors, other than relatively minor things like taking over Singapore and Hawaii. So most countries defend their border from occasional raids by rouge bands, and that's it.
By Belated Battleships methods, Africa, South America, India, Australia, hell even Russia and the Middle East are MORE screwed than China by not having enough navy for their coastlines. Hence why I strongly advise taking YOUR idea and running with it in this fic, instead of falling into the BB fanon mold that most Kantai Collection fanfics adopt as canon.
In case I haven't been clear enough yet: Based on sound logic, reason and geography, I submit one (1) vote for Abyssals being "angry ghosts" which mainly target the aggressor nations of WWII, with some exceptions (Japanese angry ghosts would want to take the Marianas, Iwo Jima and Okinawa to prevent another repeat of Starvation, but the humans see this as Abyssal conquests).
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If you have criticisms regarding BelBat, go there and voice them. This is not the thread for it.
- Location
- Canada
You must be joking. (Funny rating removed as informed by Always Late)
There is nothing wrong with telling someone "I support your idea, because the other ideas I've seen around here? They kind of make no sense in comparison, just look! *blahblah* See? Yours is so much better!"
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Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
Your FNGness is showing again. Using the funny rating maliciously? That's a hot-button topic here on SV. Lots of folks used to, and sometimes still do, use it mockingly rather than a genuine expression of laughter.
- Location
- Canada
Well, I actually did find his protest amusing.
But thanks for the information, I removed the rating from him.
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Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
We've heard that excuse before. The staff were not laughing at it then either. Among other elements, when the post isn't intended to be satirical or hilarious, that's really putting the use of the funny rating in a shady light.
- Location
- Somewhere between here and there
Okay, perhaps writing my theory about possible reason why Abyssals came into being (or at least played a big role in it) very late into night whilst going on very little sleep was not the best of ideas.
Now, before anybody gets any misconceptions about the nature of my theory: In no way, shape or form is my theory to be taken as any sort of protest. I would kindly point out that I love both Belated Battleships and Changing Destiny along with both of their settings.
Anyways, regarding my theory: The critical role of which WW2 played was the fact that roughly 70 million people in total (civilian and military) died in just a time span of just six years, at least according to this video. On top of this would not only be the number of people who died not long after the war's end, but also the suffering of those who survived the war and in roughly the first decade after it. Be it in the form of people (civilian or military) who suffered life-long injuries during those six years, lost people whom they had cared about, and really just about everything highly negative that occurred in the immediate years after the war's end.
Regardless of the source, it is these negative emotions and energies which may very well have served as the raw material from which the Abyssals formed from. As for the reasoning behind why Abyssals take on the form of Ships (though there are installation-type Abyssals present as well, at least in BelBat): Given the structure of the world at the time which the Abyssals emerged, the swiftest and most devastating form which they could have taken would be in the forms of ships and installations given that many nations have a heavy reliance on global trade (of which pretty much all of it happens on the sea since its the cheapest means of transport and has the highest profit ratio).
Now I'm not saying that all of this is what caused the Abyssals to appear in the first place since I'm just a reader, not the author. It might have tipped what metaphysical scales towards them appearing (and shipgirls in turn). Again though, this is really just all theory which will change accordingly as new information about the Abyssals comes to light.
Now, before anybody gets any misconceptions about the nature of my theory: In no way, shape or form is my theory to be taken as any sort of protest. I would kindly point out that I love both Belated Battleships and Changing Destiny along with both of their settings.
Anyways, regarding my theory: The critical role of which WW2 played was the fact that roughly 70 million people in total (civilian and military) died in just a time span of just six years, at least according to this video. On top of this would not only be the number of people who died not long after the war's end, but also the suffering of those who survived the war and in roughly the first decade after it. Be it in the form of people (civilian or military) who suffered life-long injuries during those six years, lost people whom they had cared about, and really just about everything highly negative that occurred in the immediate years after the war's end.
Regardless of the source, it is these negative emotions and energies which may very well have served as the raw material from which the Abyssals formed from. As for the reasoning behind why Abyssals take on the form of Ships (though there are installation-type Abyssals present as well, at least in BelBat): Given the structure of the world at the time which the Abyssals emerged, the swiftest and most devastating form which they could have taken would be in the forms of ships and installations given that many nations have a heavy reliance on global trade (of which pretty much all of it happens on the sea since its the cheapest means of transport and has the highest profit ratio).
Now I'm not saying that all of this is what caused the Abyssals to appear in the first place since I'm just a reader, not the author. It might have tipped what metaphysical scales towards them appearing (and shipgirls in turn). Again though, this is really just all theory which will change accordingly as new information about the Abyssals comes to light.
- Location
- Canada
To be clear in my answer to you earlier, I liked Belated Battleships just fine, except for what I've already noted as being better in your theory than the BelBat version most KC authors take as canon. (EDIT: Wait a second, it's not???? Huh, but isn't it a dominant influence in the fandom? Well, AFAIK it was... sorry then. Kudos to Always Late for helping me so often in my blundering about the fandom (and forum for that matter).)
That is why I cast one (1) vote in favor of your theory instead of Sky falling in line with the BelBat crew.
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Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
BelBat isn't exactly a majority influence. Don't know how you got that idea.
still_guns
For the Empire!
- Location
- Bridge of ISS Conundrum
I'm just here wondering what MSSB means
CV12Hornet
Riter.
- Location
- Tacoma, Washington
"Magical Sparkly Shipgirl Bullshit", the catch-all term for all the physics-breaking stuff that makes shipgirls work - and sometimes, happens just because.I'm just here wondering what MSSB means
still_guns
For the Empire!
- Location
- Bridge of ISS Conundrum
Crap, how did I forget that?
Huh.
Sink the ship, no problem.
Massacre the crew in the water? Goddamn ship's spirit appears and blows your ass away.
Let's all avoid shooting survivors in the water, eh?
Tank crews are still fucked... unless it's an amphib, then don't shoot crew bailing out, just in case.
Sink the ship, no problem.
Massacre the crew in the water? Goddamn ship's spirit appears and blows your ass away.
Let's all avoid shooting survivors in the water, eh?
Tank crews are still fucked... unless it's an amphib, then don't shoot crew bailing out, just in case.
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
All I'll say on Abyssals before I crash- yay for being sick and having to use one of my very few sick days -is that my Abyssals follow no standard. By which I mean I developed my ideas a long time ago, and without influence from BB or anything else.
Those who have read Indy already know this.
Those who have not...well, I'll take the requisite post from there. Somewhat spoilery for Indestructible Spirit here:
Now, this is primarily built for Indy. Hence the story and character references in there.
That said...for any fic of mine involving Abyssals (including the War in this fic that Thompson and Schreiber came from) it is built on this framework. It's not everything. Since that would be spoilers. But it's the basic framework.
But I don't use GG or BelBat as my base. At all.
And this is also not saying that we'll ever have Abyssals in this fic either.
Those who have read Indy already know this.
Those who have not...well, I'll take the requisite post from there. Somewhat spoilery for Indestructible Spirit here:
In totally unrelated news:
Since I was tutoring today, I got in a bit of an academic mood. So, we have an in-universe view on the Abyssals. Clearly, I'm not saying everything about them in here, though. Got to hold something back, eh?
As to the reason for this? Well, Indy-verse is (in relation to Abyssals and kanmusu) the 'framework' I use for any Kancolle works I do. Which means this has a lot more context, than just this story.
-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-
Abyssals. Demons of the deep. Monsters who exist to destroy humanity. Unnatural beings, that cannot be understood by human minds.
All of these descriptors and more have been put forward for the enemy humanity faces. However, to label them as such is to not understand them. It is to give them a faceless nature, monsters that cannot be rationalized. An understandable view, to be certain. But one that limits our understanding of our enemy. As Sun Tzu says, if you cannot understand your foe, you cannot hope to defeat them. With that in mind, it is important to study the Abyssals. Find out what exactly they are, what caused them to appear. How they appeared, and why they did.
In that regard, the first important note is the comparison to kanmusu. Humanity's guardians, the returned souls of warships. The young women who fight to defend us. To describe them would be the work of many books, but the important distinction is simple. They are the souls of warhips given human form, while retaining all the strength and power of their hulls. And yet, they are human. With all the feelings that implies. Kanmusu are more human than they are steel, and that is important. Our defenders are more like us than unlike us, save for their power.
It is this that makes the contrast with the Abyssals all the more important.
For all that kanmusu are human, Abyssals are not. Yet they both take the same form. Human women, the age varying. Abyssals of destroyer level and below are oftentimes more like marine life, but the stronger ones resemble kanmusu to an uncomfortable extent. The carriers and battleships are, save for minor differences, quite human in fact. Kanmusu even report that their hulls, something only seen by our warriors, are the same. If twisted and corrupted, to use the terminology given by kanmusu reports.
This twisted nature is endemic of Abyssals in general. Where kanmusu love, they hate. Where kanmusu are happy, they are angry. Where...well, the point is apparent. Abyssals are, in a way, the polar opposite of kanmusu. Perhaps, one could argue they were the twins of our guardians. Save, for one fact.
The Demons.
Such are the names given to the most powerful of Abyssals, along with the 'Princess' category. Where the latter are unique, the Demons are quite familiar. The first one to be recognized was the Demon of the Baltic. Identified by German kanmusu as the Admiral Hipper-class cruiser Seydlitz. Returned as a beyond-average Abyssal, who has demonstrated a special hatred for Germany in particular. Another example would be the Russian battleship General Alekseyev, now better known as the Black Sea Demon.
Both of these warships, identified by their sisters, have returned as Abyssals. Why?
That is a complex question to answer, and there is no proper answer. The prevailing theory, however, is supported by many kanmusu. That both of these ships, and indeed the other Demons, have reason to hate their nations. Or to be filled with unending and unquenchable rage. Seydlitz, never completed and torn apart by both her own nation and the Soviets. Alekseyev, ill-maintained and languishing in port after fleeing a government that took over her nation, only to be scrapped by them decades later. Perhaps, it is even understandable why they would come back as they had.
However, the Demons are very much a unique case. Were it as simple as anger, many kanmusu would come back as they have. Arizona. Royal Oak. Any number of Imperial Japanese warships. Yet, they have not. The question, then, is why? What is so special about the circumstances of the Demons, that mark them as unique?
And, moreover, where do the standard- such as that word can be used -Abyssals come from?
That is an answer we do not have, as of yet. Further study is needed, and I hope that when an answer is found...it will be possible to stop the Abyssals.
-Dr. Ayaka Honda, 'Understanding Our Enemy'.
Since I was tutoring today, I got in a bit of an academic mood. So, we have an in-universe view on the Abyssals. Clearly, I'm not saying everything about them in here, though. Got to hold something back, eh?
As to the reason for this? Well, Indy-verse is (in relation to Abyssals and kanmusu) the 'framework' I use for any Kancolle works I do. Which means this has a lot more context, than just this story.
-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-
Abyssals. Demons of the deep. Monsters who exist to destroy humanity. Unnatural beings, that cannot be understood by human minds.
All of these descriptors and more have been put forward for the enemy humanity faces. However, to label them as such is to not understand them. It is to give them a faceless nature, monsters that cannot be rationalized. An understandable view, to be certain. But one that limits our understanding of our enemy. As Sun Tzu says, if you cannot understand your foe, you cannot hope to defeat them. With that in mind, it is important to study the Abyssals. Find out what exactly they are, what caused them to appear. How they appeared, and why they did.
In that regard, the first important note is the comparison to kanmusu. Humanity's guardians, the returned souls of warships. The young women who fight to defend us. To describe them would be the work of many books, but the important distinction is simple. They are the souls of warhips given human form, while retaining all the strength and power of their hulls. And yet, they are human. With all the feelings that implies. Kanmusu are more human than they are steel, and that is important. Our defenders are more like us than unlike us, save for their power.
It is this that makes the contrast with the Abyssals all the more important.
For all that kanmusu are human, Abyssals are not. Yet they both take the same form. Human women, the age varying. Abyssals of destroyer level and below are oftentimes more like marine life, but the stronger ones resemble kanmusu to an uncomfortable extent. The carriers and battleships are, save for minor differences, quite human in fact. Kanmusu even report that their hulls, something only seen by our warriors, are the same. If twisted and corrupted, to use the terminology given by kanmusu reports.
This twisted nature is endemic of Abyssals in general. Where kanmusu love, they hate. Where kanmusu are happy, they are angry. Where...well, the point is apparent. Abyssals are, in a way, the polar opposite of kanmusu. Perhaps, one could argue they were the twins of our guardians. Save, for one fact.
The Demons.
Such are the names given to the most powerful of Abyssals, along with the 'Princess' category. Where the latter are unique, the Demons are quite familiar. The first one to be recognized was the Demon of the Baltic. Identified by German kanmusu as the Admiral Hipper-class cruiser Seydlitz. Returned as a beyond-average Abyssal, who has demonstrated a special hatred for Germany in particular. Another example would be the Russian battleship General Alekseyev, now better known as the Black Sea Demon.
Both of these warships, identified by their sisters, have returned as Abyssals. Why?
That is a complex question to answer, and there is no proper answer. The prevailing theory, however, is supported by many kanmusu. That both of these ships, and indeed the other Demons, have reason to hate their nations. Or to be filled with unending and unquenchable rage. Seydlitz, never completed and torn apart by both her own nation and the Soviets. Alekseyev, ill-maintained and languishing in port after fleeing a government that took over her nation, only to be scrapped by them decades later. Perhaps, it is even understandable why they would come back as they had.
However, the Demons are very much a unique case. Were it as simple as anger, many kanmusu would come back as they have. Arizona. Royal Oak. Any number of Imperial Japanese warships. Yet, they have not. The question, then, is why? What is so special about the circumstances of the Demons, that mark them as unique?
And, moreover, where do the standard- such as that word can be used -Abyssals come from?
That is an answer we do not have, as of yet. Further study is needed, and I hope that when an answer is found...it will be possible to stop the Abyssals.
-Dr. Ayaka Honda, 'Understanding Our Enemy'.
Now, this is primarily built for Indy. Hence the story and character references in there.
That said...for any fic of mine involving Abyssals (including the War in this fic that Thompson and Schreiber came from) it is built on this framework. It's not everything. Since that would be spoilers. But it's the basic framework.
But I don't use GG or BelBat as my base. At all.
And this is also not saying that we'll ever have Abyssals in this fic either.
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Speaker4thesilen
Superpower: Common Sense
- Location
- Noneya Business
My condolences. Having worked in a school in the past, I have to warn you that you will get everything the little monsters get. At least until your immune aystem gets used to the constant bombardment.
- Location
- Nashville
Err I thought Sky was teaching at a university?
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
I'm (student) teaching at high school.
Oh, Hormonal angsty and little monsters my sincere sympathy for that.
- Location
- Canada
This reminds me of the Dynasty Warriors 8 Achievement walkthough I read once...
Ultimate difficulty: "God help you"
OR
*achievement collecting all sixth-tier weapons in the game* (F, UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU)
(In the document, that says it's doable in Free Mode, but is of Ultimate difficulty as an achievement... well, a lot of U's, actually.)
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
Well, to be fair shooting helpless men in the water is a prima facie war crime almost by black letter laws of war, certainly by USN definitions, which is what Utah's running on. While every navy has its own set of standards (the IJN position on surrenders is drastically different than the USN one), there's pretty much universal agreement that if you attack wounded/helpless men, that you are on very shaky moral and legal ground indeed.
That said, while I suspect the girls have internalized that they are warships, intended to go in harm's way, and that they and their crew do so accepting that they may not make it back, there are going to be actions that will really set them off, such as this. Remember that they see themselves as protectors of their crew and nation so actions like this cut very close to the bone. Unfortunately, if OTL is any guide, the Pacific Theater is likely going to be a very brutal war indeed, not least because of the clash of cultures involved, plus the American reaction to The Treachery Of Pearl.
EDIT-As a side note, if Zuikaku or one of the other CV Kanmasu is watching along for this action, her reaction would be interesting. Kaga and some of the other girls whose airgroups committed atrocities in China already like bombing Shanghai would be a good deal more blase about it then ZuiZui.
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