Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

Re: Submarines

They don't make good escorts in the WW2 period, honestly. They may have range, they may have (enough surfaced) speed to keep up with convoys. But it's very debatable how useful they are in actually escorting a convoy instead of hitting it. Convoys are required to zig-zag to avoid enemy subs, which is going to hurt range. It's one thing for a U-Boat to cross the Atlantic and hit American shipping- as an example -on her own or in a wolfpack. It's another entirely to escort a convoy taking multiple turns to avoid enemy subs.

German convoys may be different (may be) but the overall point remains. Moreover, it requires someone actually thinking 'hey, lets use a submarine in the exact opposite way everyone does'. German naval thought was pretty divided between BIG NAVY BIG GUNS (Raeder and Hitler) and FAST RAIDING SHIPS (+SUBMARINES) on the other end. Clearly the former won out, no matter what arguments could be made by the other side. Building the KM to counter the French/Russians is as much because if you are going to have a navy at all, you need to build it to fight your presumed enemies. Is it needed for anything other than protecting trade with Sweden from the Russians? Not really...considering how the war went.

But looking at it through the lens of the time, it's easy enough to see why it was built.
I feel like I should point out that German convoys would not be going anywhere near the kinds of distances Allied convoys tended to. We're talking "Germany to Norway" or "Italy to North Africa".

And, ultimately, it doesn't need to be some kind of super-extensive thing. All it takes is one instance of a battleship raiding a convoy to get surprise torpedoes from a submarine before the French navy decides against sending its capital ships on merchant raiding missions. Which is a result you could achieve with just one submarine escorting a convoy.

The reason why something like that was never attempted in WW2 was because attacks on merchant shipping by surface action were very rare (not counting carrier attack, which is different because it's by aircraft, and subs are largely useless against aircraft). Graf Spee and Gneisenau are the only notable cases that come to mind, and Graf Spee was sunk after only a brief career (and Gneisenau was sunk the one time she did attempt such an attack). And since both of those cases were against British shipping, and the British had few submarines...

I mean, there were some cases of Japanese surface warships attacking enemy merchant shipping in the days of ABDACOM's collapse, but that's hardly a good example--American subs in the area were relatively few in number, busy trying to strike back at the enemy or monitor approaches to what Allied possessions remained, or fleeing to increasingly distant submarine bases (and their commander was a total moron who squandered the submarine force and ignored all of the reports of torpedo failures...and had his submarine base within easy striking distance of enemy air attack from enemy airfields, even days after Pearl Harbor).

The reason why it isn't a crazy idea for (hypothetically) a war between Germany and France is because there wouldn't be that much French merchant shipping to attack, nor would there be much German shipping to defend. And you'd have plenty of submarines to spare even after deploying some on coastal defense and attack missions, since Germany's navy would (hypothetically) be a mostly-submarine force meant for dealing with the contingency of war with Britain. Besides, the idea isn't so much to protect the convoy from all attack, but rather to punish attackers and make the tactic of attacking a convoy with surface warships too risky to be worth it.

Regardless, the notion that German high command had good reason to believe that war with Britain (even as late as 1938) wasn't a real possibility is absurd. It's doubly absurd when you consider that Britain entered WW1 because Germany invaded Belgium (violating its neutrality)...and the German plans of invasion against France all involved invading Belgium. But once they did make the (extremely belated) realization, they should have shifted priority over to submarine construction immediately, but they didn't.

Gunfire was a not-unusual way to actually kill a submarine. O'Bannon would like to remind you that she won her moment of fame by killing a submarine with gunfire, after distracting its deck gun crew with potatoes. Yup. Potatoes.

There are multiple other incidents where depth charge damage forced subs to surface, and they were ultimately sunk with gunfire.

But any rate, subs are like the ultimate glass cannons, as far as naval warfare goes. A near-miss from a battleship gun will kill one.
Er, what? A near-miss from a battleship gun (or any gun) won't kill one. Hell, it probably wouldn't even damage it. American and German submarines were built very tough, and they could take some astounding punishment to kill. There was even an instance of an American sub taking a hit clean through its hull, but the sub survived, escaped on the surface, and managed the flooding well enough to travel long-distance through enemy-controlled waters and past enemy-held islands on the surface.

I can't recall a single instance of an American submarine being damaged enough by depth charges that it was forced to surface and was sunk by gunfire (American subs were amazingly resistant to depth charge attack, provided they didn't explode extremely close--or right next to--the hull. They might not have been able to dive as deeply as their German counterparts, but they were built so ruggedly that depth charge attacks needed to be very accurate to deal fatal/crippling damage).

Generally, most of what forced a submarine to surface was relentlessness--keeping the sub suppressed for so long that it ran out of air or battery power and had to surface to avoid suffocating the crew. Damage by depth charges helped, but it was kind of rare that depth charges would do enough damage to force a submarine to surface but not do enough damage to fatally compromise the pressure hull (resulting in the sub imploding from the water pressure).

There was an instance where an American submarine came under depth charge attack, which caused the depth gauge to get stuck, and the officer managing the depth-control was inexperienced and made a big mistake (since the gauge was stuck at a certain depth level, he had the sub keep rising without realizing he was doing so, resulting in the submarine surfacing right in front of a destroyer). He decided to go down with the ship. But since it was operator error (from inexperience and poor judgment) that caused the eventual sinking and not the damage from the depth charge attack, it doesn't count.

Two things: once again, it misses the point that when the Weimar navy was planning this, they weren't legally allowed to build submarines, and if it was such a good idea, why did nobody else do it?
Germany literally didn't care about not legally being allowed to build submarines. It started violating the Treaty of Versailles rather quickly. Germany also went to great lengths to keep its expertise with submarine construction and technology, and started development of submarines again many years before the war. It already had a substantial number of submarines before the Bismarck was even ordered, IIRC. As for why no one did it--see my posts above. We're talking about a hypothetical situation in which Germany's navy is predominantly submarines, eschewing capital ships entirely, in a war against France. Thus, it has many subs to spare, and limited shipping to protect.
 
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:jackiechan:

The slowest battleships in French inventory travel at about 20 knots and the fast battleships go at roughly 30 knots! Not only will they be moving at flank speed which already complicates torpedo firing solutions, the torpedoes being fired don't have the speed or visibility advantages of a Japanese oxygen torpedo! Thus it's likely that either an alert crewman on the battleships themselves see a suspicious periscope or the escorting destroyers start dropping depth charges and then the surprise element is ruined and the surface force decides to break off and let the bombers finish it instead. Or the merchants get sunk (and/or in the process of sinking) by long-range, unopposed fire and the surface force doesn't notice the submarines because it was already over before the submarines could even get into position anyways.

At least Japanese submarines on fleet support in the early years of the Pacific War had the authorization to try and get into position of American surface ships. A German submarine escorting convoys is not only useless against the most likely targets (i.e. aircraft or enemy submarines), the intended shock of destroying a battleship requires miracles and extreme incompetence on behalf of the French.
 
FTFY, because Fire Control Radar don't give two shits about smoke. Also, your whole thesis has been that submarines are better convoy escorts than destroyers. If you have to attach them, you've already failed your own criteria.
You got any evidence for that?
Okay, stop putting words in my mouth.

I did not suggest that submarines made better convoy escorts than destroyers. That's dumb. Submarines generally couldn't do shit about enemy submarines unless they were surfaced.

I suggested that having a submarine attached to a convoy--in addition to its normal escorts--could make the tactic of raiding merchant shipping with big surface warships too risky to do. You'd only need one instance of a submarine--totally unnoticed before it dives when the surface raider is spotted--lying it wait for the surface raider to follow the convoy right into the submarine, and then hitting said raider with torpedoes (maybe sinking it, maybe not; either way, it's going to be effective as a deterrent). It's not so much about protecting the convoy in that instance as making the risk of future convoy attacks by surface raiders too great. Even a single instance of success would be enough because the French would realize that they wouldn't know if the convoy included a submarine until after the potential submarine launched its attack.

Note that this is not a particularly efficient use of a submarine--unless you have an abundance of them already and relatively few convoys to protect, such as would be the case in a hypothetical scenario in which Germany has a predominantly submarine navy (and no capital ships), up against the French.

Secondly, fire control radar would not be something the French would be guaranteed to have. I don't know if they had any by 1940, but I doubt it. Regardless, even if it doesn't prevent you from hitting the target, you don't really know you've hit the target because the smoke obscures visual confirmation. It only needs to keep the surface raider pursuing long enough to get within range of the submarine, which is not hard (a convoy would present a lot of targets to shoot at anyway, which takes time).

:jackiechan:

The slowest battleships in French inventory travel at about 20 knots and the fast battleships go at roughly 30 knots! Not only will they be moving at flank speed which already complicates torpedo firing solutions, the torpedoes being fired don't have the speed or visibility advantages of a Japanese oxygen torpedo! Thus it's likely that either an alert crewman on the battleships themselves see a suspicious periscope or the escorting destroyers start dropping depth charges and then the surprise element is ruined and the surface force decides to break off and let the bombers finish it instead. Or the merchants get sunk (and/or in the process of sinking) by long-range, unopposed fire and the surface force doesn't notice the submarines because it was already over before the submarines could even get into position anyways.

At least Japanese submarines on fleet support in the early years of the Pacific War had the authorization to try and get into position of American surface ships. A German submarine escorting convoys is not only useless against the most likely targets (i.e. aircraft or enemy submarines), the intended shock of destroying a battleship requires miracles and extreme incompetence on behalf of the French.
...you really don't know much about WW2 submarine warfare. First off, wakeless torpedoes are not invisible, nor are waked torpedoes easy to see coming until it's too late.

Germans frequently used electric torpedoes, which are also wakeless.

A battleship moving at 30 knots wouldn't matter that much if it was heading in the sub's direction. It doesn't make the firing solution more complicated. Torpedoes still travel faster than the target ship does (even if they didn't, you could still hit the target so long as it wasn't traveling directly away from you). Zig-zagging wouldn't make sense for a ship trying to pursue/catch up to a convoy running away from it, and zig-zagging wouldn't help against a submarine that's close enough to you.

Next, you're putting way too much stock into long-range gunnery accuracy. And against multiple targets? If they're covered by a smoke screen and you don't have radar fire control, you're screwed until you catch up. Maybe they fatally damage one ship before the smoke screen is fully up, but a convoy is composed of multiple ships.

Lastly, don't act like the surface raiders would be zig-zagging whilst pursuing a fleeing convoy. That only makes any sense at all if you know there are submarines present. The first few times, the submarines would have complete surprise on their side. Furthermore, if they're trying to hit multiple distant targets with their guns, zig-zagging would screw up their own accuracy.
 
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@SaltyWaffles, I'd dial back on the multi-posting before someone gets it in their head you're being disruptive and hits the report button. You've got the time to put all your responses to people tearing the idea to shreds in one post. Besides, the Naval Historian and OP has spoken and declared your idea very implausible on paper and impossible to use in the political situation. You are digging your own grave at this point.
 
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r, what? A near-miss from a battleship gun (or any gun) won't kill one. Hell, it probably wouldn't even damage it. American and German submarines were built very tough, and they could take some astounding punishment to kill. There was even an instance of an American sub taking a hit clean through its hull, but the sub survived, escaped on the surface, and managed the flooding well enough to travel long-distance through enemy-controlled waters and past enemy-held islands on the surface.

Depth charges have 450 pound explosive charges. A HE battleship shell is closer to a thousand pounds. A near-miss from one of those will do serious damage.

Additionally, torps have much shorter range than guns, which means the sub has to, if it's already submerged, hope the battleship comes into range, when the battleship only needs enter main battery range of the convoy.

Max range of a G7e/T3 Torpedo: 5 km at 30 kt

Max range of a G7a torpedo: 12 km at 30 kt

Max range of UK Mark 1 15" Naval Rifle: 30 km

Max range of FR 15"/45 naval rifle: 42 km

Even if we say they have to come to within 15 km for effective fire, the sub has to close 10 km before it can even think of firing torpedoes, for the more-commonly sub-deployed G7e/T3.
 
Depth charges have 450 pound explosive charges. A HE battleship shell is closer to a thousand pounds. A near-miss from one of those will do serious damage.

Additionally, torps have much shorter range than guns, which means the sub has to, if it's already submerged, hope the battleship comes into range, when the battleship only needs enter main battery range of the convoy.

Max range of a G7e/T3 Torpedo: 5 km at 30 kt

Max range of a G7a torpedo: 12 km at 30 kt

Max range of UK Mark 1 15" Naval Rifle: 30 km

Max range of FR 15"/45 naval rifle: 42 km

Even if we say they have to come to within 15 km for effective fire, the sub has to close 10 km before it can even think of firing torpedoes, for the more-commonly sub-deployed G7e/T3.

Yet U-405 handled having several thousands tons of American Destroyer riding on it in rough weather in the North Atlantic and didn't even crumple. Hell U-505 took a direct hit from like I think it was a 500 pound bomb but it could have been a 250-pound bomb and managed to limp all the way back to port.
 
Depth charges have 450 pound explosive charges. A HE battleship shell is closer to a thousand pounds. A near-miss from one of those will do serious damage.

Additionally, torps have much shorter range than guns, which means the sub has to, if it's already submerged, hope the battleship comes into range, when the battleship only needs enter main battery range of the convoy.

Max range of a G7e/T3 Torpedo: 5 km at 30 kt

Max range of a G7a torpedo: 12 km at 30 kt

Max range of UK Mark 1 15" Naval Rifle: 30 km

Max range of FR 15"/45 naval rifle: 42 km

Even if we say they have to come to within 15 km for effective fire, the sub has to close 10 km before it can even think of firing torpedoes, for the more-commonly sub-deployed G7e/T3.

Not true, actually. A battleship shell weighs more than a depth charge, but it has much less actual explosives, which are what make near-misses damaging. As an example, the HE Mk. VIIIb for the Mk. 1 15"/42 (i.e. the most common British battleship gun of the war) had 130 lbs of explosive filler.
 
But, I am not wrong about U-405 having several thousand tons of American Destroyer riding on top of it and actually coming off well 'slightly' better than the destroyer. The point stands, submarines back then were built tough.

Modern subs are tougher.
See, San Francisco hitting a seamount at flank and surviving.
 
The French surface task force has the range advantage, it has the speed advantage, it has the firepower advantage. It has absolutely no reason to bother to close the range and the presence of enemy destroyers means that it can't be baited into a trap because of the commanding officer's conscious! It even has floatplanes and other aircraft to observe the fall of shot. Because of this the French are able to fire over the horizon and drastically reduce the effect of smoke. Yes merchant ships can try to maneuver and zig-zag, but they're moving at a speed of around 10 knots or less. Between the fragility and snail-like speed of the merchant ships and the presence of aerial reconnaissance, it'll be surprising if by the end of the hour there are still floating merchant ships. After that the French will just retire home.
 
Not true, actually. A battleship shell weighs more than a depth charge, but it has much less actual explosives, which are what make near-misses damaging. As an example, the HE Mk. VIIIb for the Mk. 1 15"/42 (i.e. the most common British battleship gun of the war) had 130 lbs of explosive filler.
That assumes that a battleship shell automatically detonates the moment it hits the water. Or even right after it. Either way, this is irrelevant, because no battleship is going to be firing at a surfaced submarine from long range, and it sure as hell isn't going to be firing at a submerged submarine it can't even detect, let alone locate.

A "near miss" on a surfaced submarine is hard enough to achieve--you're talking about a much smaller target than a destroyer, and the vast majority of the target is underwater, so you have a hard time even seeing it.

Furthermore, depth charges do damage through explosive shock translated through the water. HE shells are designed to do damage via exploding directly in contact with (or right after making contact) the target, also partially through shrapnel; furthermore, their ballistic trajectory gets fucked upon contact with the water, so damaging a submerged submarine with such a shell would take a miracle. Significantly damaging a surfaced submarine with an HE shell without hitting it directly would be ludicrous--the only damage you could inflict would be with shrapnel, and submarine armor (they weren't built like tin cans, because they had to withstand enormous pressure from being deep underwater and surviving depth charge attack) was generally good enough to withstand that.

Japan developed gun shells that were specifically designed for ASW use--they would actually retain a degree of their ballistics after hitting the water, among other things. And they were issued to lots of their ships. But instances of such shells actually doing any damage to submerged submarines? Zero. Instances of such shells actually doing damage to a surfaced submarine? Perhaps one or two, and one of those instances was from very close range on an already-detected submarine, in broad daylight. In the other possible instance, the submarine escaped and survived.

Submarines don't have the kind of armor that can withstand AP shells, sure. But their hulls were designed for withstanding big explosions underwater at close range. Anything short of a battleship HE shell would be less dangerous than a depth charge, and I'd contest even the battleship HE shell part.

American and German submarines had a reputation for withstanding brutal punishment. One American submarine had its bow bent something like 45-90 degrees from a collision with an enemy ship. It not only still managed to dive just fine, it made it all the way back home. Another submarine survived having its forward torpedo rooms flooded completely while underwater (which should say something, since that not only affects the buoyancy, it affects the balance/diving angle, and if your submarine is pointing downwards from the added weight forward, guess which direction you're going to start plummeting if you don't immediately find ways to compensate?). Numerous American submarines survived prolonged, brutal depth charging attacks (from sustained, very close depth charge detonations) that their hulls were buckled and warped all over, but still intact and dive-worthy. Another submarine ran itself so hard aground that nothing could free her and no torpedoes could reach her, even weeks later--but the sub itself was remarkably intact.

The most effective ASW weapon of the war dealt damage through specifically designed contact-detonated explosive charges. They were designed to sink very rapidly. Killing a submarine with underwater near-misses was very difficult, even with weapons designed for the task. You didn't need to merely be close, you needed to be very close, and even then, you were not guaranteed a kill.

But perhaps most telling is the fact that the frequent practice for destroying surfaced submarines--on all sides--was ramming them, rather than keeping a safe distance and shooting them with guns. There were numerous cases of submarines on the surface, that either couldn't dive or didn't bother to, being shot at by destroyers and escorts, and not getting hit even once (certainly not damaged by near-misses, either).

Subs also had more reserve buoyancy than you might think, given that they had to have enough to rapidly surface themselves, even after (and especially after, in the worst cases) suffering from numerous leaks and significant damage. Flooding while underwater was dangerous for a lot of reasons, but the notion of sinking because you'd lose too much buoyancy was pretty much never one of them. The bigger risk was the water damaging vital machinery (like the engines or batteries) and affecting the balance of the ship (making keeping a controlled depth harder).

The French surface task force has the range advantage, it has the speed advantage, it has the firepower advantage. It has absolutely no reason to bother to close the range and the presence of enemy destroyers means that it can't be baited into a trap because of the commanding officer's conscious! It even has floatplanes and other aircraft to observe the fall of shot. Because of this the French are able to fire over the horizon and drastically reduce the effect of smoke. Yes merchant ships can try to maneuver and zig-zag, but they're moving at a speed of around 10 knots or less. Between the fragility and snail-like speed of the merchant ships and the presence of aerial reconnaissance, it'll be surprising if by the end of the hour there are still floating merchant ships. After that the French will just retire home.
Aerial recon? From the French? With what? Their one, old aircraft carrier?

Merchant ships tend to move at higher speeds than 10 knots. We're talking more like 13 to 17, though it depends on the ship in question.

Also, I find your belief that the French battleships would actually manage the whole "have a floatplane fly over the horizon, observe the fall of shot of shots fired from over the horizon, and communicate back to the ship accurately enough to actually hit all of the shits" shtick kind of ludicrous. If it was that simple, why did no one in any navy ever try something like that?

Consider the case of battleships closing on slow, big, armor-less targets that actually happened: Samar. Despite having radar, the moment a smoke screen was put up, the battleships didn't even bother firing, knowing that they were extremely unlikely to hit anything. So they closed the distance--which took time, because the enemy was constantly running away from them. And all the while, they covered a substantial distance, because it was a running battle.
 
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OK... Saltywaffles... step away from the keyboard and calm down.

Only *every single navy* that had seaplanes on their battleships practiced using them to spot the fall of shot at long range. It was *standard doctrine* for all the worlds navies throughout the period.

The rest of that *shakes head* a surfaced submarine is no more difficult a target than anything else for long range artillery fire. There's not some magical 'I'm too small for you to hit' rule for a surfaced sub, it's only defence is to crash dive, at which point it has rendered itself irrelevant to the fleet action.
 
Aerial recon? From the French? With what? Their one, old aircraft carrier?
From cruisers. The Duguay-Trouin and Duquesne classes carry two seaplanes each, Algerie and the Suffren class three each, and the La Galissoniere class all carry four. And using cruiser-based seaplanes for scouting is also common practice among the world's navies.
 
Salty, you still haven't explained why the battleships would ever come in range of the convoy, assuming you used battleships for convoy raiding. As I pointed out earlier, German subs mostly used the G7e/T3, which had a range of 5 km, which means that even if you claim the French/British battleships have to close to half their maximum range, the subs are still 10km outside their maximum (not effective, maximum) range.
 
Since I'll have to be in bed and would rather not worry about the thread exploding while I'm asleep...

Preemptive:


If I need to do something detailed I will tomorrow, but please, don't blow up the thread while I'm out.
 
Information: Official Staff Communication
Since I'll have to be in bed and would rather not worry about the thread exploding while I'm asleep...

Preemptive:


If I need to do something detailed I will tomorrow, but please, don't blow up the thread while I'm out.

Ohmygodshe'sadorable.

...

I mean-

official staff communication Yeah, please do as the author requests.

I don't particularly like doing the whole mod interrupt thing in this thread, I know it's got to be getting on @Skywalker_T-65's nerves at this point, but like, pleasepleaseplease follow the threadbanner's instructions. It's there for a reason.
 
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All i can say is that i'm patiently waiting for the next chapter as i prepare my mind and sanity for the upcoming event.....

Grinding up WoT and WoWS....

And trying to land a job....
 
How about a more on topic discussion. would America be within its rights under the Monroe doctrine to order the Graf spee to leave South American waters or be interned to sit out the war in One of the us's ports ?
 
How about a more on topic discussion. would America be within its rights under the Monroe doctrine to order the Graf spee to leave South American waters or be interned to sit out the war in One of the us's ports ?
US doesn't have to do a thing, most of south america is British-friendly.
Although the Monroe Doctrine isn't so much a thing of international law you can beat someone over the head with, but rather a diplomatic and international policy tool to beat someone over the head with. Unless it's proven that the germans are invading or subverting South America, the Monroe doctrine does not come into the picture.
 
US doesn't have to do a thing, most of south america is British-friendly.
Although the Monroe Doctrine isn't so much a thing of international law you can beat someone over the head with, but rather a diplomatic and international policy tool to beat someone over the head with. Unless it's proven that the germans are invading or subverting South America, the Monroe doctrine does not come into the picture.
Ah i see well then that throw that idea out the window
 
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