Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

Why they thought they needed the Kriegsmarine to fight the French, I'll never know. Yes, they had excellent battleships, but little else. A pair of Panzers managed to drive a French destroyer away from the African coast.
 
Y'know, I'm pretty sure it's never actually been said anywhere that he wants the Allies to win faster - in fact, his loyalty to the nation of Germany has received a good deal of focus. He just also wants to have Hitler overthrown and the Nazis removed from power. Removing Hitler from power and defeating the Allies are not necessarily mutually exclusive goals for him to reach for, that's all I'm saying here.
except crippling the allies makes his goal of overthrowing the Nazi's harder. Plus any student of history can tell you that WAllie occupation (in the event of his plot failing, which is a very likely occurrence) is much preferable to soviet occupation, which means that if he was smart he'd have a backup plan in play to allow the Western allies to gain the most from his power grab or to be able to push faster if he (likely) fails.
 
Why they thought they needed the Kriegsmarine to fight the French, I'll never know. Yes, they had excellent battleships, but little else. A pair of Panzers managed to drive a French destroyer away from the African coast.
Well, if nothing else, keeping any French ships from getting at the Swedish iron ore trade was a good idea.

Unlikely, I know, but the navy needed to justify itself somehow.
 
except crippling the allies makes his goal of overthrowing the Nazi's harder. Plus any student of history can tell you that WAllie occupation (in the event of his plot failing, which is a very likely occurrence) is much preferable to soviet occupation, which means that if he was smart he'd have a backup plan in play to allow the Western allies to gain the most from his power grab or to be able to push faster if he (likely) fails.

Harder, perhaps. Impossible? Because you have to take into account that he may well view any occupation of Germany period as an unacceptable outcome - I don't think I understand his headspace enough to say for certain either way. But if this is the case, then the harder option becomes the only option.

It also needs to be taken into account that insofar as I've read his sections he has given precisely no indication of wanting to run off and defect to the Allies, but every indication of building up a political base to oppose Hitler's own through achieving naval victories against Germany's opponents - you know, the Allies.

It just seems a bit odd that everyone's going on about how he's going to defect when he hasn't actually given any indication of doing so, is all.
 
Then in 1938 - yes, that late - the Kriegsmarine realized that yes, naval with Britain was now a serious strategic consideration.
"What's that, you say? We're planning on fully remilitarizing, annexing and conquering our way across Europe, all after blatantly violating the Treaty of Versailles, and Britain just might take exception to that? Preposterous!"

Hitler, on the other hand, wanted a full prestige fleet to challenge Britain with, and threatened to slap civilian leadership on the Navy if they didn't agree.
So Hitler was being Hitler, as I had basically said before. He always was enamored with big, flashy, Rule of Cool things, no matter how impractical they may have been.

The real irony is that their greatest success--getting the jump on the HMS Glorious and her two destroyer escorts and sinking all three of them, albeit at the cost of one of the battleships eating a torpedo--came about because the Royal Navy could not into carriers in WW2 (phrasing intentional). (Considering that this came after an almost as embarrassing episode early in the war, where they lost another carrier because they decided it was perfectly fine to send their only two escorts off to go respond to a distant contact report of an enemy submarine, it was something of a trend.) As dramatic as blowing up the HMS Hood in one shot was, Bismarck still took significant damage from Prince of Whales in that fight (despite the horrendous turret problems she had), was promptly torpedoed by biplanes (after said biplanes had attacked friendly ships first by mistake, because Royal Navy), and then finished off without inflicting any further damage to the enemy. And, ultimately, Hood was just a worn-down battlecruiser whose speed was not even impressive by 1940 standards--a respectable ship, but not as valuable as a fleet carrier.

Well, if nothing else, keeping any French ships from getting at the Swedish iron ore trade was a good idea.

Unlikely, I know, but the navy needed to justify itself somehow.
Problem is, submarines could achieve that themselves. So could naval aircraft. The two working together would have been a fearsome combination.

Plus, imagine: French battleship goes to attack a convoy, only to find out that the convoy didn't just have a couple of destroyers for escort: they were escorted by submarines. Submarines who are gleeful that the French battleship so courteously came to them.
 
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Plus, imagine: French battleship goes to attack a convoy, only to find out that the convoy didn't just have a couple of destroyers for escort: they were escorted by submarines. Submarines who are gleeful that the French battleship so courteously came to them.
Why do I get the impression that said BB would be picking off merchant ships while the subs are slowly getting into position?
 
"What's that, you say? We're planning on fully remilitarizing, annexing and conquering our way across Europe, all after blatantly violating the Treaty of Versailles, and Britain just might take exception to that? Preposterous!"

So Hitler was being Hitler, as I had basically said before. He always was enamored with big, flashy, Rule of Cool things, no matter how impractical they may have been.

The real irony is that their greatest success--getting the jump on the HMS Glorious and her two destroyer escorts and sinking all three of them, albeit at the cost of one of the battleships eating a torpedo--came about because the Royal Navy could not into carriers in WW2 (phrasing intentional). (Considering that this came after an almost as embarrassing episode early in the war, where they lost another carrier because they decided it was perfectly fine to send their only two escorts off to go respond to a distant contact report of an enemy submarine, it was something of a trend.) As dramatic as blowing up the HMS Hood in one shot was, Bismarck still took significant damage from Prince of Whales in that fight (despite the horrendous turret problems she had), was promptly torpedoed by biplanes (after said biplanes had attacked friendly ships first by mistake, because Royal Navy), and then finished off without inflicting any further damage to the enemy. And, ultimately, Hood was just a worn-down battlecruiser whose speed was not even impressive by 1940 standards--a respectable ship, but not as valuable as a fleet carrier.


Problem is, submarines could achieve that themselves. So could naval aircraft. The two working together would have been a fearsome combination.

Plus, imagine: French battleship goes to attack a convoy, only to find out that the convoy didn't just have a couple of destroyers for escort: they were escorted by submarines. Submarines who are gleeful that the French battleship so courteously came to them.

This might work with modern subs, but WW2 subs can make 9 knots at flank underwater, which they can only maintain for a few hours, at best, and they're a lot slower when running silent. In order to keep up with a convoy, they're going to have to be surfaced, which just so happens to mean happy battleship chewing through submarines and merchies.
 
This might work with modern subs, but WW2 subs can make 9 knots at flank underwater, which they can only maintain for a few hours, at best, and they're a lot slower when running silent. In order to keep up with a convoy, they're going to have to be surfaced, which just so happens to mean happy battleship chewing through submarines and merchies.

Type XXVII could do short sprints of 25 knots when using the High-test peroxide propulsion system. While the Type XXIs thanks to their hydrodynamic hull using their electric drive could reach speeds of 17 knots and they were quieter than the Type VIIC U-Boats.

Type XXVll:



Type XXI:


The Type XXIs greatly influenced the American GUPPY projects for the Gato, Balao, and Tench classes as well as the Soviet Submarines with the NATO Designations: Whiskey, Zulu, and Romeo. Plus the Chinese Ming class submarine.
 
Type XXVII could do short sprints of 25 knots when using the High-test peroxide propulsion system. While the Type XXIs thanks to their hydrodynamic hull using their electric drive could reach speeds of 17 knots and they were quieter than the Type VIIC U-Boats.

Type XXVll:



Type XXI:


The Type XXIs greatly influenced the American GUPPY projects for the Gato, Balao, and Tench classes as well as the Soviet Submarines with the NATO Designations: Whiskey, Zulu, and Romeo. Plus the Chinese Ming class submarine.

Fair. That said, that really doesn't solve the submerged endurance issue of using diesel-electric subs for convoy escort.
 
Type XXVII could do short sprints of 25 knots when using the High-test peroxide propulsion system. While the Type XXIs thanks to their hydrodynamic hull using their electric drive could reach speeds of 17 knots and they were quieter than the Type VIIC U-Boats.

Type XXVll:



Type XXI:


The Type XXIs greatly influenced the American GUPPY projects for the Gato, Balao, and Tench classes as well as the Soviet Submarines with the NATO Designations: Whiskey, Zulu, and Romeo. Plus the Chinese Ming class submarine.
More importantly, that blows the performance of every prewar submarine out of the water.

Also, @SaltyWaffles , your analysis misses a very crucial point: when the Weimar navy determined France as their primary sea opponent, Germany was, uh, kind of still legally forbidden from building submarines.
 
Maybe he will take Bisko, Prinz Eugen, and Blucher and go crack open a British Convoy that's escorted by a Revenge Class?

We've guessed and discussed that several times at this point, so that doesn't seem to be the case. We know Schreiber wants to sink British ships, but it's hard to conceive of what his targets might be. Against any Battleship in the Royal Navy, even with two Cruisers as escorts, Schreiber can't guarantee the absolute strokes of luck that were Hood detonating and Prince of Wales's mechanical issues. In all probability, trying to hunt any Battleship of the Royal Navy is probably going to get Bismarck sunk - there's a reason the Germans were building to counter the French, after all.

That being the case, I think his targets will be Aircraft Carriers then. Large enough to be big headlines in the papers, and on top of that, the Royal Navy had a habit of sending out their CVs with far too light an escort, and then often detaching that escort to handle minor issues anyway. That would explain risking delaying so long that Hitler scraps the fleet in order to get more anti-air.

But I still don't get how that ties into his larger goal. A few chapters back, it was implied that Schreiber wasn't trying to save German ships as much as he was trying to reduce the death toll of the war, either by overthrowing the Nazis or by putting Germany in a position where the Allied strat bombing campaign would become unnecessary (though I might have misread something). I mean, if his goal was just to save Blucher and Prinz and Bismarck, then it'd be very easy to figure out what he is trying to do - go out, do enough raiding to convince Hitler of the worth of the Kreigsmarine, and stay mobile enough to not get intercepted yet still stay out long enough that the fleet runs out of fuel and is forced to inter at a neutral port, say somewhere in Spain. Thus keeping the fleet out of the war.

I feel that Schreiber's plan is fairly obvious if you have the right information in the right order, we're all just missing something.
 
I keep telling you, it's going to be suitably heroic, and profound enough that Thompson will know who it is.
 
We've guessed and discussed that several times at this point, so that doesn't seem to be the case. We know Schreiber wants to sink British ships, but it's hard to conceive of what his targets might be. Against any Battleship in the Royal Navy, even with two Cruisers as escorts, Schreiber can't guarantee the absolute strokes of luck that were Hood detonating and Prince of Wales's mechanical issues. In all probability, trying to hunt any Battleship of the Royal Navy is probably going to get Bismarck sunk - there's a reason the Germans were building to counter the French, after all.

That being the case, I think his targets will be Aircraft Carriers then. Large enough to be big headlines in the papers, and on top of that, the Royal Navy had a habit of sending out their CVs with far too light an escort, and then often detaching that escort to handle minor issues anyway. That would explain risking delaying so long that Hitler scraps the fleet in order to get more anti-air.

But I still don't get how that ties into his larger goal. A few chapters back, it was implied that Schreiber wasn't trying to save German ships as much as he was trying to reduce the death toll of the war, either by overthrowing the Nazis or by putting Germany in a position where the Allied strat bombing campaign would become unnecessary (though I might have misread something). I mean, if his goal was just to save Blucher and Prinz and Bismarck, then it'd be very easy to figure out what he is trying to do - go out, do enough raiding to convince Hitler of the worth of the Kreigsmarine, and stay mobile enough to not get intercepted yet still stay out long enough that the fleet runs out of fuel and is forced to inter at a neutral port, say somewhere in Spain. Thus keeping the fleet out of the war.

I feel that Schreiber's plan is fairly obvious if you have the right information in the right order, we're all just missing something.

Hearing that and the fact that he might be going after a British Aircraft Carrier could be an objective. If he is, I wonder what CV his target might be, I am not really sure where all of the that Britain have are at this moment.
 
Hearing that and the fact that he might be going after a British Aircraft Carrier could be an objective. If he is, I wonder what CV his target might be, I am not really sure where all of the that Britain have are at this moment.

My best guess would be Furious, as I believe the completed Illustrious', as well as Eagle, and Ark Royal were in the Mediterranean at this point otl, and we can add Glorious there as well since she survived Norway. Courageous was KIA via U-boat in '39, so she can't be a target. The only problem I see is that Furious was on ferry duty to Ghana and Gibraltar for the first few months of '41 IIRC.
 
My best guess would be Furious, as I believe the completed Illustrious', as well as Eagle, and Ark Royal were in the Mediterranean at this point otl, and we can add Glorious there as well since she survived Norway. Courageous was KIA via U-boat in '39, so she can't be a target. The only problem I see is that Furious was on ferry duty to Ghana and Gibraltar for the first few months of '41 IIRC.

That's very much true. If that is the case and they do succeed in sinking a British Aircraft Carrier with a Battleship and two Heavy Cruisers. I bet that Hood's reaction will be along the lines of "How in the bloody hell do you allow a goddamned Jerri Battleship and two Jerri Heavy Cruisers close the range enough so that they can open fire on it and sink it? Just how do you screw that up?"
 
That's very much true. If that is the case and they do succeed in sinking a British Aircraft Carrier with a Battleship and two Heavy Cruisers. I bet that Hood's reaction will be along the lines of "How in the bloody hell do you allow a goddamned Jerri Battleship and two Jerri Heavy Cruisers close the range enough so that they can open fire on it and sink it? Just how do you screw that up?"

That would be a perfect time for whichever Brit came back from the future to show up and tell Hood about the story of Glorious and the Terrible Twins.
 
*assuming there is a Brit :V


Crossposting from SB Belbat because cutes:




 
It might be something 'big' that endears him to Germany, but he gets 'captured.'
 
So which American ships are in the Atlantic at this time?
Biggest one is North Carolina, which is slated for sea trials later that year. Aside from her, it's a relatively paltry mish-mash of ships. Most of the fleet has been sent to the Pacific given the rising tensions with Japan.
 
Biggest one is North Carolina, which is slated for sea trials later that year. Aside from her, it's a relatively paltry mish-mash of ships. Most of the fleet has been sent to the Pacific given the rising tensions with Japan.
Did a Google search. Washington was commissioned 15 May 1941. IIRC it's currently spring 1941.
 
Biggest one is North Carolina, which is slated for sea trials later that year. Aside from her, it's a relatively paltry mish-mash of ships. Most of the fleet has been sent to the Pacific given the rising tensions with Japan.
I doubt Schreiber's going to pick a fight with the one ship in the Atlantic that is guaranteed to kick his ass.
Harder, perhaps. Impossible? Because you have to take into account that he may well view any occupation of Germany period as an unacceptable outcome - I don't think I understand his headspace enough to say for certain either way. But if this is the case, then the harder option becomes the only option.

It also needs to be taken into account that insofar as I've read his sections he has given precisely no indication of wanting to run off and defect to the Allies, but every indication of building up a political base to oppose Hitler's own through achieving naval victories against Germany's opponents - you know, the Allies.

It just seems a bit odd that everyone's going on about how he's going to defect when he hasn't actually given any indication of doing so, is all.
Except his plan is boarder-line impossible to begin with.

It took Hitler, one of the most charismatic leaders in the 20th century if not human history, 10 years to topple a government that was so inept it practically handed the keys to him while it was in the middle of the worst economic depression in Germany's history.

Schreiber has 4 years max (lets be honest, nothing he can do will even slow down the steamroller that's destine for Berlin come June 22nd) and while the Nazi's couldn't run a war to save their lives, they were ruthlessly efficient when it came to eliminating threats to their government. Simply put, even leaving out all the things that the Brits can do to kill it in the next year IC wise, Time and German politics are against him.
 
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