Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

Our German friend knows full well that without a radical shift in the course of history along the lines of the US joining the Axis powers, Germany is basically fucked
Did you ever read Tom Clancy's Red October? It posed the question 'how can one man convince an entire ship to defect?' The answer was, he didn't. He just stole it. Germany is a LONG way from being on the losing side of the war. The entire country is flush with success. How could one man convince a flotilla to defect, before the US has even been dragged into the fight. He needs to convince people who DON'T know the future to quit while Germany is ahead. The war didn't really take a downturn for Germany until the Sixth Army was wasted on the banks of the Volga. And even then, hardly any were willing to give up. As it stands right now, two people, and a few ship spirits know what's going to happen. But, if you walked up to an American and said 'The Japanese are going to erase the American battle line at anchor in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii on Sunday, December 7, 1941,' you would be talking to a LOT of men in suits. If you walked up to a German and said 'the Russians are going to hang a banner on the roof of the Reichstag over the ruins of Berlin,' you'll be 'talking' to a lot of SS.
 
Well, his obvious reason is to save Blucher and Bismarck from being sunk or scuttled. Our German friend knows full well that without a radical shift in the course of history along the lines of the US joining the Axis powers, Germany is basically fucked. Even if the timeline changes enough for Hitler to develop a nuke, it likely wouldn't be ready for use before the Allied lines extend into Germany and Allied air superiority so complete that there would be no way to get the nuke to Britain, meaning that at best, Germany would become a real life Belka, but with far less flying aces and general military competence.

That's rather scary actually. Mainly because at this time the world doesn't know about the effects of Nuclear Weapons on the human body. So having one or godforbid two or more detonate, just imagine how many people could die from Radiation Poisoning, Cancer, etc. Worse, imagine how the world will react. It actually might force the Allies to go through with Operation Downfall and Operation Unthinkable because of the fact that they consider the weapon just as bad as Poison Gas from World War I. Having Germany detonate just one Nuke, no matter how big. It will so radically alter history that it won't even be funny.
 
That's rather scary actually. Mainly because at this time the world doesn't know about the effects of Nuclear Weapons on the human body. So having one or godforbid two or more detonate, just imagine how many people could die from Radiation Poisoning, Cancer, etc. Worse, imagine how the world will react. It actually might force the Allies to go through with Operation Downfall and Operation Unthinkable because of the fact that they consider the weapon just as bad as Poison Gas from World War I. Having Germany detonate just one Nuke, no matter how big. It will so radically alter history that it won't even be funny.
:facepalm:... It'll never come to that. I don't think anybody will use nukes in this timeline, because if we're lucky, the Abyssals will do the dumb and unite the world against them by attacking both Allied and Axis ships.
 
:facepalm:... It'll never come to that. I don't think anybody will use nukes in this timeline, because if we're lucky, the Abyssals will do the dumb and unite the world against them by attacking both Allied and Axis ships.
That reminds me.
*boop* http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/pdf/eng/English101.pdf
Unimaginative name, yes, but it's also a very informative article on the reactions of German Physicists, one of whom was Otto Hahn, part of the team who discovered nuclear fission.
 
If Schreiber raises enough havoc, heck, Hitler may be so pleased that he allows Graf Zeppelin to be finished and send Schreiber's task force along with Graf and Tirpitz to the Indian Ocean to take out the British naval forces there and get Japanese consultants on getting up to speed in carrier warfare. Not likely, but who knows what Mothra has been doing lately?
 
If Schreiber raises enough havoc, heck, Hitler may be so pleased that he allows Graf Zeppelin to be finished and send Schreiber's task force along with Graf and Tirpitz to the Indian Ocean to take out the British naval forces there and get Japanese consultants on getting up to speed in carrier warfare. Not likely, but who knows what Mothra has been doing lately?

I doubt Schreiber would make that mistake. Graf Zeppelin has too much political baggage, and that's before getting to the fact that Swordfish and Fulmar are more useful than Germany's sorry attempts at carrier-based aircraft.
 
Not one person has actually guessed what he's up to, BTW.
Fine, I'll take a shot her-
We know better than to do that.

Anyway. . .

My wild theory is that Schreiber is going to attack mainland US before Hitler launches Barbarossa.

This will give FDR the justification to declare war on Germany and will stop Hitler from distracting Stalin's killing of Russians. Which will prevent the rape and pillaging and division of Germany from the OTL.

It will also screw the Japanese as this means the US will be on a war footing and prevent the quick war the Japanese hope for.

You may now proceed to poke holes in my idea.
 
he plans on handing the enigma codes to the allies years before they would have got it in OTL.
 
My wild theory is that Schreiber is going to attack mainland US before Hitler launches Barbarossa.
Hmm… according to Wiki (really need my own books on this stuff), Bismarck's operational range is a little over 8,500 miles at 19 knots. They'll probably burn through a fair chunk of their fuel trying to break past the British if they aren't sunk first. Reaching and shelling Portland (Maine), Boston, or New York is very iffy at best.
 
Y'know, I'm pretty sure it's never actually been said anywhere that he wants the Allies to win faster - in fact, his loyalty to the nation of Germany has received a good deal of focus. He just also wants to have Hitler overthrown and the Nazis removed from power. Removing Hitler from power and defeating the Allies are not necessarily mutually exclusive goals for him to reach for, that's all I'm saying here.
 
In addition to what @SaltyWaffles said was the 1935 Anglo-German Naval Agreement.

The AGNA ensured that Germany would allocate precious resources to building a Royal Navy-style fleet. This helped stop the German Navy from building a large anti-commerce fleet of U-boats, light cruisers and Panzerschiff. By the time Hitler changed his mind in 1939, four precious years had pasted and WW2 would start, Germany had neither a surface fleet large enough to challenge the RN, nor a sub fleet capable of cutting off Great Britain.
Not really. The AGNA didn't specifically limit submarine construction; it only limited the total naval tonnage Germany could build. If Hitler had decided to go with a pure commerce-raider fleet (plus some destroyers for various purposes), he would have been able to do easily by just not building big, expensive, heavy battleships/battlecruisers, heavy cruisers, light cruisers, and an aircraft carrier.

Furthermore, WW1 had showed that surface commerce raider ships ultimately couldn't make the kind of systematic, lasting impact that submarines could. Commerce raiders were, at a minimum, light cruisers--which meant significant tonnage. Light cruisers are vulnerable to even destroyers (being lightly armored), so in the face of a large battlefleet like Britain's (and even France's), light cruisers would be easy pickings if they were ever caught and run down. Heavy cruisers and battlecruisers would obviously fare better, but it'd be a case of putting many eggs in few baskets. As the Graf Spee showed, surface raiders just couldn't afford to take damage that couldn't be repaired at sea. Absent friendly ports in the regions of operation, surface raiders tend to have a highly successful but far too brief run before being sunk or fatally damaged.

While SaltyWaffles is correct that the German surface fleet was ultimately a waste of steel, oil, and men, it must be pointed out that said surface fleet was not intended to fight the Royal Navy. German naval planning at the time of the AGNA was focused on fighting France and the USSR, both much more reasonable goals. The German surface fleet quite handily outclassed the Soviet Baltic Fleet for most of the war, and while the German navy was smaller than the French much of the French battlefleet was old and obsolete.

In addition, most of the surface ships the Germans fielded during the war were, in fact, built or building at the start. Sunk costs, essentially. Why not complete and use them? That they ended up fighting the Royal Navy anyway was as much a grand strategic failure on the entire Nazi political leadership as the fault of the Kriegsmarine.
The problem is that, even assuming such strategic thinking as "peace with Britain while we wage war against France and Russia", Hitler's plan with the Kriegsmarine just didn't make any sense. War with France and Russia would be fought on land and in the air, not at sea.

Furthermore, it was Britain's blockade of Germany that proved a fatal threat in WW1. You'd think that Hitler would be smart enough to gear his navy towards the purpose of knocking Britain out of the war should it come to that. France alone wouldn't have been able to enforce a naval blockade. Plus, submarines were originally envisioned as coastal defense vessels (German submarine designs in the years leading up to WW2 were considerably longer ranged and better equipped, obviously, so they could take the fight directly to the blockade forces if need be).

The thing is, Britain's navy represented the potentially catastrophic threat, not France's. France could be knocked out of the war through land warfare and air support. Britain's navy would need to be either defeated (a pipe-dream) or circumvented (via submarines) to knock it out of the war. Being able to counter France's navy wasn't critical (and submarines could manage well enough anyway, on a defensive level); being able to counter Britain's navy was. Hitler going around, provoking the British time and time again whilst not having any answer to such a grave threat (the Royal Navy) was supremely stupid. But even when war with Britain did arrive in 1939, Hitler didn't make expanding U-boat construction the top priority. He squandered much of his airforce trying to terror-bomb Britain into submission (not learning from WW1, where neither Britain nor France were cowed by such tactics). Meanwhile, Doenitz was doing real damage to the entire British war effort, but didn't have enough subs to deal decisive damage.

Russia's navy...yeah. I just don't see how that would even factor in. Historically, the only Russian warships to accomplish anything (aside from a few botched evacuation runs to besieged port cities and some fire support against besieging forces at Leningrad) were its submarines, and even that wasn't much to write home about. Ultimately, it was submarines and air attack that sank merchant ships heading for Russian ports--the one time German surface units actually sortied to attack a convoy in the region, IIRC, the battleship in question was sunk.

I mean, I could have understood if Hitler had decided having a surface navy was a waste of resources and industrial output, and had instead dumped them into tanks and aircraft--if he believed that his enemies would be France and Russia, that would make sense. Instead, he built a surface navy, replete with numerous capital ships...and then invaded France with tanks and aircraft. Then Russia...with tanks and aircraft.

Oh yeah: remember that time in WW1 when British superiority in surface combatants allowed it to run up and down the German coast, shelling significant targets with impunity, seriously threatening the German war effort? Or the time when France's navy showed that it could attempt to blockade Germany on its own? No? Me neither.
 
...I'm still holding out that Bisko and friends become American warships...
Mainly because I wan't someone to make a crack at Hitler making such nice gifts for the Americans or something like that.
Partially because of Yamato!Montana and American!Kongo stories.
 
...I'm still holding out that Bisko and friends become American warships...
Like USS Prinz Eugen. Although her outcome wasn't very daijobu.
Mainly because I want someone to make a crack at Hitler making such nice gifts for the Americans or something like that.
Because fuck that guy.
Partially because of Yamato!Montana and American!Kongo stories.
Awww yiss. Someone else gets it. Eternity and New Ironsides. Yontana 4 lyfe.
 
The problem is that, even assuming such strategic thinking as "peace with Britain while we wage war against France and Russia", Hitler's plan with the Kriegsmarine just didn't make any sense. War with France and Russia would be fought on land and in the air, not at sea.

Furthermore, it was Britain's blockade of Germany that proved a fatal threat in WW1. You'd think that Hitler would be smart enough to gear his navy towards the purpose of knocking Britain out of the war should it come to that. France alone wouldn't have been able to enforce a naval blockade. Plus, submarines were originally envisioned as coastal defense vessels (German submarine designs in the years leading up to WW2 were considerably longer ranged and better equipped, obviously, so they could take the fight directly to the blockade forces if need be).

The thing is, Britain's navy represented the potentially catastrophic threat, not France's. France could be knocked out of the war through land warfare and air support. Britain's navy would need to be either defeated (a pipe-dream) or circumvented (via submarines) to knock it out of the war. Being able to counter France's navy wasn't critical (and submarines could manage well enough anyway, on a defensive level); being able to counter Britain's navy was. Hitler going around, provoking the British time and time again whilst not having any answer to such a grave threat (the Royal Navy) was supremely stupid. But even when war with Britain did arrive in 1939, Hitler didn't make expanding U-boat construction the top priority. He squandered much of his airforce trying to terror-bomb Britain into submission (not learning from WW1, where neither Britain nor France were cowed by such tactics). Meanwhile, Doenitz was doing real damage to the entire British war effort, but didn't have enough subs to deal decisive damage.

Russia's navy...yeah. I just don't see how that would even factor in. Historically, the only Russian warships to accomplish anything (aside from a few botched evacuation runs to besieged port cities and some fire support against besieging forces at Leningrad) were its submarines, and even that wasn't much to write home about. Ultimately, it was submarines and air attack that sank merchant ships heading for Russian ports--the one time German surface units actually sortied to attack a convoy in the region, IIRC, the battleship in question was sunk.

I mean, I could have understood if Hitler had decided having a surface navy was a waste of resources and industrial output, and had instead dumped them into tanks and aircraft--if he believed that his enemies would be France and Russia, that would make sense. Instead, he built a surface navy, replete with numerous capital ships...and then invaded France with tanks and aircraft. Then Russia...with tanks and aircraft.

Oh yeah: remember that time in WW1 when British superiority in surface combatants allowed it to run up and down the German coast, shelling significant targets with impunity, seriously threatening the German war effort? Or the time when France's navy showed that it could attempt to blockade Germany on its own? No? Me neither.
Gotta love my copy of Conway's All The World's Fighting Ships: 1922-1946. Let's see what they have to say.

Alright, here's the thing: that focus on France was a direct consequence on Germany's focus on Poland as it's primary opponent, and dates back to the Weimar years. It was believed at the time that a war with Poland would draw in France, but not Britain or the United States, and the German Navy was geared towards defending North Sea shipping and Baltic access from potential French incursions. Granted, the actual construction at the time was not well-suited towards the task (even with the Versailles restrictions, the fast but thin-skinned Panzerschiffe didn't make a whole lot of sense for a coastal-defense mission), but that was the stated goal.

This focus on France as the primary continued initially under Hitler, and his demands for more battleships for use as a political lever dovetailed reasonably well with that focus. Then in 1938 - yes, that late - the Kriegsmarine realized that yes, naval with Britain was now a serious strategic consideration. And here's where the strategic contradiction you noted comes in: the Navy wanted a fleet focused on commerce-raiding made up of submarines, additional Panzerschiffe, long-range light cruisers, and fast scouts. Hitler, on the other hand, wanted a full prestige fleet to challenge Britain with, and threatened to slap civilian leadership on the Navy if they didn't agree.

So, yeah, Hitler and the Kriegsmarine were pulling in different directions before the War, and it shows.
 
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