Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

The Luftwaffe had two-point chutes at the time, they issued them to pilots. They were just more worried about anti-air fire when the plane you're jumping out of is at least nominally supposed to return home.

Which is exactly why I am just simply stunned. Because I knew for a fact that the Germans had two-point parachutes, so it came as quite the shock to me that the Fallschirmjagers used one point parachutes. Which is why my earlier response to the Fallschirmjagers using one-point parachutes was what it was.
 
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Which is exactly why I am just simply stunned. Because I knew for a fact that the Germans had two-point parachutes, so it came as quite the shock to me that the Fallschirmjagers used one point parachutes. Which is why my earlier response to the Fallschirmjagers using one-point parachutes was what it was.
As @theJMPer said, less time as a very slow clay pigeon.
 
The Luftwaffe had this strange idea that airborne troops needed to spend as little time as possible in the air, which meant dropping them from very low altitude.

I can come up with a reason why this might be feasible, and it's based around the Geneva Conventions. The Geneva Convention, originally was really wonky when it came to airborne attacks, it has since been revised/ updated to address both change in technologies and clarify preexisting rules of war. In its current form the rules concerning military personnel landing via parachute go something like this, if the person wearing the parachute is intentionally using the parachute as an infantryman, ie a paratrooper, they are fair game to be shot at by members of the armed forces of the nation(s) they are currently engaged in war with. If the person using the parachute is not an infantryman using the chute in this manner, ie a pilot who is having a really bad day, these personal are not to be shot at/towards and are to be treated as noncombatents (POW) with all the rights and privileges of such. Violating this rule qualifies a soldier to be charged with war crimes for killing a pow. As you might imagine, when there are a multitude of aircraft attacking a position, while others are deploying airborne units it can be... challenging, to determine which category a person parachuting falls into bid battle.

In an effort to prevent mistakes from happening, most air borne forces are inserted using a HALO jump (Higher Altitude Low Opening). There are many reasons they do do, but for this discussion there is a main reason, since most airborne forces are supposed to open their chutes at a relatively low altitude, ground troops can usually determine that, those parachutes that open close to the ground over that way are probably paratroopers, as well as determining, that parachute that has been open since 10000 feet up is probably a downed pilot, also his plane crashed outside my base 10 minutes ago.
 
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Weeeeeelllllll....not totally unrealistic on some level.

Anywho:

Gneis getting sunk against Hood is going to do nothing to convince Hitler of anything. Except perhaps that the surface fleet isn't worth the money. Remember, when Bismarck actually sank Hood her own sinking was still considered a waste of money by Hitler. It was part of the reason that the KM didn't go on any more Atlantic adventures other than U-Boats. In this case, Gneis did crippling damage to Hood...but did not sink her. Repulse came away with no damage at all, while Scharn got shot up a bit as well since the Terrible Twins focused on Hood. So you've got a trade of one crippled-but-repairable battlecruiser for one sunk/one damaged battleship(cruiser) -depending on who you ask on what the Twins are. When the Brits have two intact CCs still, plus a lot more (if old) battleships. Plus more coming up soon enough.

Not as great a showing to someone who wants IMPRESSIVE FEATS like Hitler, is it?

Furthermore, while it's a twisted one...Hitler- before he went completely off the deep end -operated on logic. If you want to appeal to him, you have to know how to appeal to him. Trying to delay the Navy's next big operation, the one that is supposed to convince him it isn't a waste of money? There's a reason that Lutjens stopped delaying it IRL, and its much the same here. Delay too long, and Hitler will- in one of his famous mood swings -decide the surface fleet isn't worth the money.

Moreover...Schreiber is already using his influence to get the extra AA, as I said before. That's a delay in itself.

As for Tirp...well. Historically, she wasn't taken because her fitting out took longer than it was supposed to. According to my handy Hitler's Navy book...not until October of '41. In that regard...who is saying Schreiber wants to wait for little sister? Let me put two dates here:

October '41. When Tirp was finished fitting out historically, and this might be delayed further because of the extra AA she'll get.

June 22, 1941

Anyone know what day that is?
The thing about the German surface navy was that it was a waste of money and resources. That it accomplished what it did is an indication of the competence and preparation problems the Royal Navy had in WW2.

Now, that's not to say that if Hitler had listened to Doenitz and had 300 operational submarines by the onset of the war, he could have quickly knocked Britain out of the war--that's simply an overestimation of his own subs' capabilities and an underestimation of his enemies'--but he would have had a real shot at knocking Britain out of the war in the longer term, provided he could keep up the kind of catastrophic shipping losses for more than a few months at a time. He certainly would have crippled Britain's war effort. If Hitler hadn't fucked up Dunkirk completely, Doenitz's submarine campaign (bolstered by much greater numbers) might have been the nail in the coffin for Britain's war effort.

Where Doenitz went wrong, ultimately, wasn't that he didn't have enough subs--though it certainly limited the amount of damage he could inflict when the tide of the sub war in the Atlantic was in his favor--it was that he didn't push for much in the way of innovation and introducing more advanced classes of submarine. The German submarine of 1939 was remarkably similar, technology-wise, to the vast majority of the submarine fleet in 1945. If, instead of waiting for the very-long-term development of the dream submarines, he had pushed for the development of the intermediate subs (what ultimately became the "electric boats" of 1945) and construction of such ship classes as soon was at all practical, he'd have been able to match Allied advances in ASW tech, doctrine, and escort numbers/types.

That Hitler completely failed to recognize how having a surface navy with capital ships had worked out for Germany in WW1 is a mark of his general lack of competence and understanding of warfare that wasn't on the ground. In WW1, Germany had a huge surface navy, such that it actually managed to do a straight-up battle with the entire British line and come out on top, tactically speaking. But that's all they accomplished. The submarine arm, on the other hand, nearly starved Britain out of the war. Only adopting a convoy system saved Britain by making targets a LOT harder to find and somewhat harder to attack safely.

Doenitz was a visionary in many respects--his wolfpack system to counter the convoy system, his insistence on practical training for night-time surface attack, insistence on excellent periscopes and other gadgets, his vision that a large submarine force could do what Germany needed--defeat or effectively cripple Britain in a naval war, but without exceeding Germany's resources or industrial limits like a huge surface navy would--but Hitler didn't really listen to him much until it was too late. And Doenitz himself didn't appreciate the need to advance the technology of his subs until it was far, far too late.

You can see the difference between him and Lockwood (the eventual commander of US submarines) fairly clearly: Doenitz envisioned wolfpack tactics to counter convoys, directing the wolfpacks himself in real time, and continued to insist that greater numbers of submarines would make the difference. Lockwood was reluctant to try wolfpack tactics, but eventually decided to experiment with them (and eventually adopt them), with wolfpack tactics being taught by submariners and conducted by the ranking sub skipper in the pack. He believed, however, that the decisive difference over time would be made with more advanced technology, and he was largely correct (though numbers did help considerably to increase the scale of his victories): US submarines, conducting accurate, sometimes relentless, and seemingly-impossible attacks became the terror of Japanese seamen--unbeknownst to them, US submarines would be able to find targets from long range in total darkness with surface-search radar, get accurate range and heading estimates with another radar set, and fire large spreads--up to six torpedoes at once, sometimes followed by four more after swinging the sub around--of torpedoes, some of them wakeless. By the late period of the war, US submarines were penetrating the Sea of Japan (like the Mediterranean Sea, but worse, because Japan fully controlled every inch of the sea and its narrow entrances/exits), detecting underwater mines with new, highly sensitive sonar and slipping through the minefield cables with specifically-fitted wire attachments of their own. They had acoustic homing torpedoes for disabling or taking out escorts trying to find them, and effective air search radar that could be deployed from underwater.

Frankly, the only surface warships beyond destroyer size that Germany had any business building were commerce-raiding cruisers--but even that was a risky endeavor. Convoy tactics would still make ships hard to find. If Britain tried to make convoys few in number but huge in size, and escorted those few convoys with sufficient numbers of light and heavy cruisers (and aircraft carriers, where available), the commerce-raider cruisers would have had to team up to have had a chance at effectiveness.

Even the invasion of Norway was a matter of luck and Royal Navy incompetence (plus some extremely underhanded methods, like inviting neutral warships to parley, only to preemptively open fire on them after they agreed and came close). And even then, the KM lost half of its destroyers and a light cruiser.
 
In an effort to prevent mistakes from happening, most air one forces are inserted using a HALO jump (Higher Altitude Low Opening). There are many reasons they do do, but for this discussion there is a main reason, since most airborne forces are supposed to open their chutes at a relatively low altitude, ground troops can usually determine that, those parachutes that open close to the ground over that way are probably paratroopers, as well as determining, that parachute that has been open since 10000 feet up is probably a downed pilot, also his plane crashed outside my base 10 minutes ago.
That's not even close to true. During WWII, everyone jumped with static-line chutes, where the canopy would open almost the moment you left the aircraft.
 
That's not even close to true. During WWII, everyone jumped with static-line chutes, where the canopy would open almost the moment you left the aircraft.
And you can see this by watching either old footage of American paras, or watch Band of Brothers. The white cord left behind was the pull cord. That's what they would 'hook up.'
 
The thing about the German surface navy was that it was a waste of money and resources. That it accomplished what it did is an indication of the competence and preparation problems the Royal Navy had in WW2.

Now, that's not to say that if Hitler had listened to Doenitz and had 300 operational submarines by the onset of the war, he could have quickly knocked Britain out of the war--that's simply an overestimation of his own subs' capabilities and an underestimation of his enemies'--but he would have had a real shot at knocking Britain out of the war in the longer term, provided he could keep up the kind of catastrophic shipping losses for more than a few months at a time. He certainly would have crippled Britain's war effort. If Hitler hadn't fucked up Dunkirk completely, Doenitz's submarine campaign (bolstered by much greater numbers) might have been the nail in the coffin for Britain's war effort.

Where Doenitz went wrong, ultimately, wasn't that he didn't have enough subs--though it certainly limited the amount of damage he could inflict when the tide of the sub war in the Atlantic was in his favor--it was that he didn't push for much in the way of innovation and introducing more advanced classes of submarine. The German submarine of 1939 was remarkably similar, technology-wise, to the vast majority of the submarine fleet in 1945. If, instead of waiting for the very-long-term development of the dream submarines, he had pushed for the development of the intermediate subs (what ultimately became the "electric boats" of 1945) and construction of such ship classes as soon was at all practical, he'd have been able to match Allied advances in ASW tech, doctrine, and escort numbers/types.

That Hitler completely failed to recognize how having a surface navy with capital ships had worked out for Germany in WW1 is a mark of his general lack of competence and understanding of warfare that wasn't on the ground. In WW1, Germany had a huge surface navy, such that it actually managed to do a straight-up battle with the entire British line and come out on top, tactically speaking. But that's all they accomplished. The submarine arm, on the other hand, nearly starved Britain out of the war. Only adopting a convoy system saved Britain by making targets a LOT harder to find and somewhat harder to attack safely.

Doenitz was a visionary in many respects--his wolfpack system to counter the convoy system, his insistence on practical training for night-time surface attack, insistence on excellent periscopes and other gadgets, his vision that a large submarine force could do what Germany needed--defeat or effectively cripple Britain in a naval war, but without exceeding Germany's resources or industrial limits like a huge surface navy would--but Hitler didn't really listen to him much until it was too late. And Doenitz himself didn't appreciate the need to advance the technology of his subs until it was far, far too late.

You can see the difference between him and Lockwood (the eventual commander of US submarines) fairly clearly: Doenitz envisioned wolfpack tactics to counter convoys, directing the wolfpacks himself in real time, and continued to insist that greater numbers of submarines would make the difference. Lockwood was reluctant to try wolfpack tactics, but eventually decided to experiment with them (and eventually adopt them), with wolfpack tactics being taught by submariners and conducted by the ranking sub skipper in the pack. He believed, however, that the decisive difference over time would be made with more advanced technology, and he was largely correct (though numbers did help considerably to increase the scale of his victories): US submarines, conducting accurate, sometimes relentless, and seemingly-impossible attacks became the terror of Japanese seamen--unbeknownst to them, US submarines would be able to find targets from long range in total darkness with surface-search radar, get accurate range and heading estimates with another radar set, and fire large spreads--up to six torpedoes at once, sometimes followed by four more after swinging the sub around--of torpedoes, some of them wakeless. By the late period of the war, US submarines were penetrating the Sea of Japan (like the Mediterranean Sea, but worse, because Japan fully controlled every inch of the sea and its narrow entrances/exits), detecting underwater mines with new, highly sensitive sonar and slipping through the minefield cables with specifically-fitted wire attachments of their own. They had acoustic homing torpedoes for disabling or taking out escorts trying to find them, and effective air search radar that could be deployed from underwater.

Frankly, the only surface warships beyond destroyer size that Germany had any business building were commerce-raiding cruisers--but even that was a risky endeavor. Convoy tactics would still make ships hard to find. If Britain tried to make convoys few in number but huge in size, and escorted those few convoys with sufficient numbers of light and heavy cruisers (and aircraft carriers, where available), the commerce-raider cruisers would have had to team up to have had a chance at effectiveness.

Even the invasion of Norway was a matter of luck and Royal Navy incompetence (plus some extremely underhanded methods, like inviting neutral warships to parley, only to preemptively open fire on them after they agreed and came close). And even then, the KM lost half of its destroyers and a light cruiser.
In addition to what @SaltyWaffles said was the 1935 Anglo-German Naval Agreement.

The AGNA ensured that Germany would allocate precious resources to building a Royal Navy-style fleet. This helped stop the German Navy from building a large anti-commerce fleet of U-boats, light cruisers and Panzerschiff. By the time Hitler changed his mind in 1939, four precious years had pasted and WW2 would start, Germany had neither a surface fleet large enough to challenge the RN, nor a sub fleet capable of cutting off Great Britain.
 
Wait, Barbarossa started that early? I always thought it was after the US entered the war. I guess that's what happens when your history teacher tells you that WW2 started on December 7, 1941.
 
The way Germany wins is by knocking Russia out of the war as quickly as possible.

Well, that's also an oversimplification. The reality is that the Germans didn't have the logistics to knock Russia out of the war in a single year. The Germans even recognized this during the planning, but they pinned their hopes on the utter fantasy of the Russians undergoing a political collapse after the opening blows which would have rendered the logistical situation superfluous. When such a collapse failed to materialize, they found themselves in a perilous balancing act: push too hard and too fast and they'll overextend, string themselves out, and be open to a punishing counterblow from the Russians. Push too slowly, and they leave the Russians with enough time and resources to present the Germans with a metaphorical wall of forces that the Germans get bogged down in. The Germans ultimately failed in this balancing act, when in October they tried for Moscow and found that was rather a city too far.

Compounding this failure was that the German's hadn't mobilized their industry for a long ground war against the USSR. Instead, they were mobilizing for a long air-naval war against the Anglo-Americans. By the time the Germans finally accepted that no, the Soviets were not going to be beaten this year, it was December 1941 and having to reverse priorities and start ramping up production took all of '42. The Soviet materiel advantage they built up during 1942 could have been significantly offset or pre-empted had Hitler made the decision to industrially go for broke in the winter of '40/'41. Of course, as mentioned, Hitler's reason for not doing so was that it would have drained the German war economy and he was hoping for a quick war against Russia allowing Germany to then turn back and deal with the British Empire and America. Essentially, full commitment of resources against the Soviets would have meant a tacit admission that Germany would be unable to beat to the Western Allies, which wasn't the game Hitler wanted to play. So it wasn't overall inevitable that the Germans would be drowned by Soviet numbers on the Eastern Front (ignoring for now more military questions of generalship and such) but it was inevitable by the time Barbarossa kicked off. The decisions that would ensure that it would be so had already been made long prior.
 
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While SaltyWaffles is correct that the German surface fleet was ultimately a waste of steel, oil, and men, it must be pointed out that said surface fleet was not intended to fight the Royal Navy. German naval planning at the time of the AGNA was focused on fighting France and the USSR, both much more reasonable goals. The German surface fleet quite handily outclassed the Soviet Baltic Fleet for most of the war, and while the German navy was smaller than the French much of the French battlefleet was old and obsolete.

In addition, most of the surface ships the Germans fielded during the war were, in fact, built or building at the start. Sunk costs, essentially. Why not complete and use them? That they ended up fighting the Royal Navy anyway was as much a grand strategic failure on the entire Nazi political leadership as the fault of the Kriegsmarine.
 
Oh my.

And since we're on the subject of Bisko and Brits:


:V

(was looking through 'booru)

Blech. Generally I'm all for people doing what they want with characters, if people want to ship ships than go right ahead, but this is where I fucking draw a line. I like my British ships to at best be not on bad terms with my German ships. But this kind of closeness? I don't see it happening, I don't like it happening, especially not with Warspite. You see cutes, but I see good artistic talent being wasted on disingenuous bullshit.
 
Blech. Generally I'm all for people doing what they want with characters, if people want to ship ships than go right ahead, but this is where I fucking draw a line. I like my British ships to at best be not on bad terms with my German ships. But this kind of closeness? I don't see it happening, I don't like it happening, especially not with Warspite. You see cutes, but I see good artistic talent being wasted on disingenuous bullshit.

Speaking of Warspite, any chance we will see her in the story?
 
While SaltyWaffles is correct that the German surface fleet was ultimately a waste of steel, oil, and men, it must be pointed out that said surface fleet was not intended to fight the Royal Navy. German naval planning at the time of the AGNA was focused on fighting France and the USSR, both much more reasonable goals. The German surface fleet quite handily outclassed the Soviet Baltic Fleet for most of the war, and while the German navy was smaller than the French much of the French battlefleet was old and obsolete.

In addition, most of the surface ships the Germans fielded during the war were, in fact, built or building at the start. Sunk costs, essentially. Why not complete and use them? That they ended up fighting the Royal Navy anyway was as much a grand strategic failure on the entire Nazi political leadership as the fault of the Kriegsmarine.

Pretty much that, yes. I've said before in both here and the AAR that the KM- up to Plan Z at any rate, and that was in '39 -was intended to fight the French and British. Bismarck got 15-inch guns because the French pushed out Richelieu, more than anything else. Scharn and Gneis were excellent potential commerce raiders, but they were originally meant to outmatch Dunkerque which itself was meant to outmatch the Deutschland. German and French design (though the French also had to counter the Italians) see-sawed like that.

The point though, is that the surface fleet was intended from the start to counter the French. Even up to Bismarck herself. That it had to fight the Royal Navy was because Hitler and Raeder underestimated the British and didn't expect to go to war with them...until it was too late, hence Plan Z.

Anywho, I never said out of universe that it was needed. Or not a waste of resources.

But in-universe, Schreiber needs to keep the KM around. Both for his own goals and because it's the largest part of the military that is- sans U-Boats anyway -relatively (relatively) Nazi-free.


Blech. Generally I'm all for people doing what they want with characters, if people want to ship ships than go right ahead, but this is where I fucking draw a line. I like my British ships to at best be not on bad terms with my German ships. But this kind of closeness? I don't see it happening, I don't like it happening, especially not with Warspite. You see cutes, but I see good artistic talent being wasted on disingenuous bullshit.


*blinks*

Ooookkkkaaayyy?
 
Blech. Generally I'm all for people doing what they want with characters, if people want to ship ships than go right ahead, but this is where I fucking draw a line. I like my British ships to at best be not on bad terms with my German ships. But this kind of closeness? I don't see it happening, I don't like it happening, especially not with Warspite. You see cutes, but I see good artistic talent being wasted on disingenuous bullshit.
by that account all the US ships, especially those that fought in the south pacific, would have a hatred for the IJN that even BB's USS Pennsylvania would consider going too far.
 
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Blech. Generally I'm all for people doing what they want with characters, if people want to ship ships than go right ahead, but this is where I fucking draw a line. I like my British ships to at best be not on bad terms with my German ships. But this kind of closeness? I don't see it happening, I don't like it happening, especially not with Warspite. You see cutes, but I see good artistic talent being wasted on disingenuous bullshit.
Huh.
Well than.
 
Blech. Generally I'm all for people doing what they want with characters, if people want to ship ships than go right ahead, but this is where I fucking draw a line. I like my British ships to at best be not on bad terms with my German ships. But this kind of closeness? I don't see it happening, I don't like it happening, especially not with Warspite. You see cutes, but I see good artistic talent being wasted on disingenuous bullshit.
Triggered.
 
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