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Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

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Thorthemighty said:
Indeed, even if it's only to help suppress those darn DDs if they engage a Convoy. Which I think is going to happen.
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Well it depends. If they're attacking a more lightly defended convoy that's only defended by DDs and smaller, Prinz Eugen and Blucher should be more than enough. Having extra cruisers or a DD screen would be nice, but for the smaller convoys it shouldn't be necessary.

On the other hand, some of those convoys had quite sizable escorts. From what we know of Schreiber's plan so far, I don't think he's going for a small convoy. I think he's going to try to take on one of the larger convoys being escorted by one of the Revenges. And if he does that, it's not guaranteed that he won't get a first-hand lesson that super charges do a lot more than just extending the max range of those Mk 1 gun turrets.
 
spartan448 said:
Well it depends. If they're attacking a more lightly defended convoy that's only defended by DDs and smaller, Prinz Eugen and Blucher should be more than enough. Having extra cruisers or a DD screen would be nice, but for the smaller convoys it shouldn't be necessary.

On the other hand, some of those convoys had quite sizable escorts. From what we know of Schreiber's plan so far, I don't think he's going for a small convoy. I think he's going to try to take on one of the larger convoys being escorted by one of the Revenges. And if he does that, it's not guaranteed that he won't get a first-hand lesson that super charges do a lot more than just extending the max range of those Mk 1 gun turrets.
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True, but a Revenge class is going to be a chew-toy for Bismarck. Mainly because Bismarck holds all the advantages: Armor, Speed, Manuverability, Armament. Because those Mark 1 turrets could do what, 1.5 to 2 rounds per minute? When Bismarck could fire like 2 to 3 rounds per minute from her main battery.
 
I would think that Schreiber would have more pull, since he actually succeeded in accomplishing things in Norway (unlike OTL). Besides, Gneis went down in honorable battle against Hood, as compared to the stomp that happened OTL, and did a fair amount of damage in return. This is a better showing, that should be telling OKB that the navy can actually do something when it gets its act together and has a chance to work hard. The pressure shouldn't be as hard, and arguments, especially from Schreiber, for a concentration of force should be more persuasive. Remember that Schreiber is now the rising star of the navy, who has shown that he can DO WELL IN BATTLE.
 
00Zy99 said:
I would think that Schreiber would have more pull, since he actually succeeded in accomplishing things in Norway (unlike OTL). Besides, Gneis went down in honorable battle against Hood, as compared to the stomp that happened OTL, and did a fair amount of damage in return. This is a better showing, that should be telling OKB that the navy can actually do something when it gets its act together and has a chance to work hard. The pressure shouldn't be as hard, and arguments, especially from Schreiber, for a concentration of force should be more persuasive. Remember that Schreiber is now the rising star of the navy, who has shown that he can DO WELL IN BATTLE.
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That's true, he has quite a bit more pull, because he has proven that he knows his stuff when it comes to fighting.
 
But the thing is, Hitler wasn't terribly fond of navies, and he lost a valuable capital ship against the RN, and the man was never known for an even temper. The Kriegsmarine's surface fleet is more or less doomed unless they can pull a miracle out of their asses. Otherwise, the surface fleet is going to be scrapped and the materials recycled to build more tanks, planes, and U-Boats.
 
CompassJimbo said:
But the thing is, Hitler wasn't terribly fond of navies, and he lost a valuable capital ship against the RN, and the man was never known for an even temper. The Kriegsmarine's surface fleet is more or less doomed unless they can pull a miracle out of their asses. Otherwise, the surface fleet is going to be scrapped and the materials recycled to build more tanks, planes, and U-Boats.
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Or worse, be Graf Zeppelin.
 
CompassJimbo said:
But the thing is, Hitler wasn't terribly fond of navies, and he lost a valuable capital ship against the RN, and the man was never known for an even temper. The Kriegsmarine's surface fleet is more or less doomed unless they can pull a miracle out of their asses. Otherwise, the surface fleet is going to be scrapped and the materials recycled to build more tanks, planes, and U-Boats.
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True, so if Schreiber can pull off one heck of a successful convoy raiding mission. Good for him, if he sinks a British Capital Ship in the process, that's just bonus points.
 
The real uber plum to pull off for Schreiber (and this is just me speculating out of my ass, no clue on how realistic it could be) would be to not sink the convoy but capture it and bring it back to Germany as a prize. Denying Britain war materials, plus extra merchant ship hulls to either use or scrap for the steel, as well as having materials that Germany can give to allies/auxillary forces instead of valuable German kit. Bonus points if he can capture some attendant Brit DDs as well. Now Schreiber will have long range DD escorts.
 
MagisterAurelius said:
The real uber plum to pull off for Schreiber (and this is just me speculating out of my ass, no clue on how realistic it could be) would be to not sink the convoy but capture it and bring it back to Germany as a prize. Denying Britain war materials, plus extra merchant ship hulls to either use or scrap for the steel, as well as having materials that Germany can give to allies/auxillary forces instead of valuable German kit. Bonus points if he can capture some attendant Brit DDs as well. Now Schreiber will have long range DD escorts.
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Earlier in the thread said:
"After taking part in the invasion of Norway, M1 developed mysterious engine trouble and was unable to return to Germany with the rest of the Flotilla. By the time the fault had been traced and repaired, the other ships were too far away for her to catch up, so Bartels reported to the senior German naval commander, who was only too pleased to use M1's services.

Bartels distinguished himself by carrying out several extraordinary feats: he managed to capture a destroyer, together with an entire torpedo boat flotilla; and, later, he even captured an allied convoy and took it into a German-held port."
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Weeeeeelllllll....not totally unrealistic on some level.

Anywho:

Gneis getting sunk against Hood is going to do nothing to convince Hitler of anything. Except perhaps that the surface fleet isn't worth the money. Remember, when Bismarck actually sank Hood her own sinking was still considered a waste of money by Hitler. It was part of the reason that the KM didn't go on any more Atlantic adventures other than U-Boats. In this case, Gneis did crippling damage to Hood...but did not sink her. Repulse came away with no damage at all, while Scharn got shot up a bit as well since the Terrible Twins focused on Hood. So you've got a trade of one crippled-but-repairable battlecruiser for one sunk/one damaged battleship(cruiser) -depending on who you ask on what the Twins are. When the Brits have two intact CCs still, plus a lot more (if old) battleships. Plus more coming up soon enough.

Not as great a showing to someone who wants IMPRESSIVE FEATS like Hitler, is it?

Furthermore, while it's a twisted one...Hitler- before he went completely off the deep end -operated on logic. If you want to appeal to him, you have to know how to appeal to him. Trying to delay the Navy's next big operation, the one that is supposed to convince him it isn't a waste of money? There's a reason that Lutjens stopped delaying it IRL, and its much the same here. Delay too long, and Hitler will- in one of his famous mood swings -decide the surface fleet isn't worth the money.

Moreover...Schreiber is already using his influence to get the extra AA, as I said before. That's a delay in itself.

As for Tirp...well. Historically, she wasn't taken because her fitting out took longer than it was supposed to. According to my handy Hitler's Navy book...not until October of '41. In that regard...who is saying Schreiber wants to wait for little sister? Let me put two dates here:

October '41. When Tirp was finished fitting out historically, and this might be delayed further because of the extra AA she'll get.

June 22, 1941

Anyone know what day that is?
 
Oh my.

And since we're on the subject of Bisko and Brits:


:V

(was looking through 'booru)
 
Thorthemighty said:
Something tells me that if Operation Baborassa had been better planned with easier timeframes to complete, plus better preparation. Then it probably would have worked.
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Your 'something' is oversimplyfying.
The Russians always had more of everything, including resources. The way Germany wins is by knocking Russia out of the war as quickly as possible. The longer they take on the offense or preparation, the more Russia can reorganize/retrain their military from the purges, replace their troops and vehicles, relocate factories, get Lend-Lease aid, and generally go through mutual attrition that Germany will lose on first.
 
Always Late said:
Your 'something' is oversimplyfying.
The Russians always had more of everything, including resources. The way Germany wins is by knocking Russia out of the war as quickly as possible. The longer they take on the offense or preparation, the more Russia can reorganize/retrain their military from the purges, replace their troops and vehicles, relocate factories, get Lend-Lease aid, and generally go through mutual attrition that Germany will lose on first.
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Oh, okay. Right, so wouldn't have using Paratroopers helped? Because I am not sure if the Germans used Paratroopers well during their invasion of the Soviet Union I mean.
 
Thorthemighty said:
Oh, okay. Right, so wouldn't have using Paratroopers helped? Because I am not sure if the Germans used Paratroopers well during their invasion of the Soviet Union I mean.
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No. Russia is big, dude. Paratroopers need to have conventional forces follow up on them pretty quickly, so you can't just drop them in Moscow and call it a win or something. And the Fallshirmjagers paradropping en-mass got nixed after the very bloody battle of Crete.
 
Thorthemighty said:
Oh, okay. Right, so wouldn't have using Paratroopers helped? Because I am not sure if the Germans used Paratroopers well during their invasion of the Soviet Union I mean.
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German paratroopers also kinda sucked. The Luftwaffe had this strange idea that airborne troops needed to spend as little time as possible in the air, which meant dropping them from very low altitude. They also used single-point chutes so the Fallshirmjagers landed squarely on their hands and knees. Hard. The only way you could make a jump without breaking your legs--even with the heavy padding they used--was to carry a minimum of equipment. Stuff like rifles had to be dropped seperately in canisters, which the jumpers would then fight their way to with knifes or pistols.
 
theJMPer said:
German paratroopers also kinda sucked. The Luftwaffe had this strange idea that airborne troops needed to spend as little time as possible in the air, which meant dropping them from very low altitude. They also used single-point chutes so the Fallshirmjagers landed squarely on their hands and knees. Hard. The only way you could make a jump without breaking your legs--even with the heavy padding they used--was to carry a minimum of equipment. Stuff like rifles had to be dropped seperately in canisters, which the jumpers would then fight their way to with knifes or pistols.
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Okay, what the fuck?!?! Just what?! That's not how you do paratrooper!
 
Yeah, that's what the Germans did. And yet, despite this, the British still managed to completely Charlie-Foxtrot the defense of Crete and lose. Now what the Germans did learn was to not use the Fallshirmjagers as paratroopers but as light infantry in forest ambuscades.

Fun fact, the Italians had better paratroops than Germany.
 
For those who don't know, or didn't look it up, Hitler nixed the entirety of the German paratroopers, cause they were used in the invasion of Crete, where they suffered more casualties at the hands of angry farmers with pitchforks than they did from other sources. Hitler was not amused.
 
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The Luftwaffe had two-point chutes at the time, they issued them to pilots. They were just more worried about anti-air fire when the plane you're jumping out of is at least nominally supposed to return home.
 
theJMPer said:
German paratroopers also kinda sucked. The Luftwaffe had this strange idea that airborne troops needed to spend as little time as possible in the air, which meant dropping them from very low altitude. They also used single-point chutes so the Fallshirmjagers landed squarely on their hands and knees. Hard. The only way you could make a jump without breaking your legs--even with the heavy padding they used--was to carry a minimum of equipment. Stuff like rifles had to be dropped seperately in canisters, which the jumpers would then fight their way to with knifes or pistols.
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didn't help that the Luftwaffe had less respect for opsec than the Japanese military either.
 
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