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Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

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Ya know, I just remembered something. When VT-8 was launching their attack on the Japanese Carrier Fleet OTL, just ten miles away was the F4F-4 Wildcats of VF-6. Maybe in Changing Destiny, Hornet's Air Group still has the 'Flight to nowhere' but this time several TBDs make it home because this time, the Wildcats of VF-6 pull off a Big Damn Heroes moment. Granted the Wildcats that manage to return to Enterprise are just shot to hell, but then again Wildcat can take it.

However I fear for the flyboys of VMF-211, those poor Sierra Oscar Bravos going nose-to-nose with A6M Zeroes in Brewster F-2A3 Buffalos and Grumman F4F-3A Wildcats, both types of aircraft that VMF-211 had were just about worn out. I also fear for the air attacks launched on Japanese Carrier Fleet from Midway. That is if Midway occurs, which I am willing to bet that it shall.
 
All that we are probably assured of is that some form of Pearl Harbor will occur. Mothra has been flapping like a hummingbird so anything past that will depend on what goes down with Pearl.
 
MagisterAurelius said:
All that we are probably assured of is that some form of Pearl Harbor will occur. Mothra has been flapping like a hummingbird so anything past that will depend on what goes down with Pearl.
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Agreed there, it depends how badly we will get hit at Pearl (Goddamnit, my OTL knoweldge isn't really helping me here). For all we know, the raid procceds almost exactly like it did OTL. But, they launch that third wave and as a result bench the Pacific Fleet for six months or more. Allowing the Japanese to really run wild in the Pacific because Pearl doesn't have any bloody fuel to allow the Pacific Fleet to sortie.
 
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Thorthemighty said:
Agreed there, it depends how badly we will get hit at Pearl (Goddamnit, my OTL knoweldge isn't really helping me here). For all we know, the raid procceds almost exactly like it did OTL. But, they launch that third wave and as a result bench the Pacific Fleet for six months or more. Allowing the Japanese to really run wild in the Pacific because Pearl doesn't have any bloody fuel to allow the Pacific Fleet to sortie.
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actually wave 3 would have ben the subs, you have to go to wave 5-6 before the Japanese even thought about hitting the fuel tanks.
also given all the work that's already gone into prepping the base for an air raid they might need wave three just to finish the jobs the first two were assigned due to attrition.
 
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Spectre said:
actually wave 3 would have ben the subs, you have to go to wave 5-6 before the Japanese even thought about hitting the fuel tanks.
also given all the work that's already gone into prepping the base for an air raid they might need wave three just to finish the jobs the first two were assigned due to attrition.
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Actually:

Several Japanese junior officers including Fuchida and Genda urged Nagumo to carry out a third strike in order to destroy as much of Pearl Harbor's fuel and torpedo[nb 19] storage, maintenance, and dry dock facilities as possible.[100] So if the subs got hit as well during that strike, alright. However if that third strike had been carried out: Military historians have suggested the destruction of these shore facilities would have hampered the U.S. Pacific Fleet far more seriously than the loss of its battleships.[103] If they had been wiped out, "serious [American] operations in the Pacific would have been postponed for more than a year";[104]

Which would mean the battle that turns the Pacific Theater around happens when the Japanese try to invade the Hawaiian Islands, quite possibly if that Third Strike was done. Most certainly Australia would have been invaded because the Japanese would have completed that airfield on Guadalcanal resulting in the supply lines being cut. It's quite possible that the 2nd World War will be hell of a lot longer if that third strike happens.
 
But remember that the first wave brought back the information that the carriers were not in Pearl. The second wave was already on the way, but anything more would have been the rearming and refueling of the first wave to go in again. With no carriers in Pearl, Nagumo was having a brown trousers moment. Because he had no flipping idea where the hell they might be. So he played it safe and got out while he could without risking the entire fleet carrier force to a hidden retaliatory strike.
 
Perhaps here we'll see the carriers return in time to catch the IJN fleet and prove some of the new doctrine Richarson has been trying to advocate by using it to solid effect, keeping the day from being so one-sided.
 
MagisterAurelius said:
But remember that the first wave brought back the information that the carriers were not in Pearl. The second wave was already on the way, but anything more would have been the rearming and refueling of the first wave to go in again. With no carriers in Pearl, Nagumo was having a brown trousers moment. Because he had no flipping idea where the hell they might be. So he played it safe and got out while he could without risking the entire fleet carrier force to a hidden retaliatory strike.
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True, but if they had done that third wave. It would caused the American War Machine in the Pacific to grind to a halt till probably mid to late 1943. So it would likely be risky as hell, but it would be well worth the payoff.
 
Thorthemighty said:
True, but if they had done that third wave. It would caused the American War Machine in the Pacific to grind to a halt till probably mid to late 1943. So it would likely be risky as hell, but it would be well worth the payoff.
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Nagumo was aware of that IRL, and decided it wasn't worth the risk of losing his carrier force without the chance to sink the USN carriers.
 
Spectre said:
also he didn't have the fuel or time to do so.
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Maybe a difference from OTL then in the 2nd wave their 78 Val D3A1 Dive Bombers whose targets were to be Carriers and Cruisers. Additional orders for that group could be that if no Carriers are present then hit the drydocks, fuel storage factillies, etc. The same could apply to the Kates armed with bombs in the first wave, if there are no aircraft carriers present then some aircraft are to attack enemy stragtic infrastructure. This might save some of the Battleships from being sunk, but the downside is that well good luck going anywhere with those Battleships.
 
Thorthemighty said:
Maybe a difference from OTL then in the 2nd wave their 78 Val D3A1 Dive Bombers whose targets were to be Carriers and Cruisers. Additional orders for that group could be that if no Carriers are present then hit the drydocks, fuel storage factillies, etc. The same could apply to the Kates armed with bombs in the first wave, if there are no aircraft carriers present then some aircraft are to attack enemy stragtic infrastructure. This might save some of the Battleships from being sunk, but the downside is that well good luck going anywhere with those Battleships.
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you do realize that the Japanese high command didn't find out about the "no carriers" part until the first wave landed, by then the second wave was just starting their attack.

Also according to Genda the supposed conversation about a third wave never happened. And given Fuchida's... "authenticity" shall we say... I think a lot of this is really stretching believability.
 
Hell at this point who knows? Maybe the embassy guys for Japan don't screw the pooch and deliver the ultimatum on time before the attack happens.
 
MagisterAurelius said:
Hell at this point who knows? Maybe the embassy guys for Japan don't screw the pooch and deliver the ultimatum on time before the attack happens.
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It's debated whether a pooch was actually screwed or just appeared to be. It's very possible that the Japanese government didn't want any sort of advanced warning reaching the US before the Pearl attack happened, but wanted to be able to claim they'd intended for the attack to land after war had been declared.
 
Spectre said:
you do realize that the Japanese high command didn't find out about the "no carriers" part until the first wave landed, by then the second wave was just starting their attack.
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You know, the raid commander could be given orders to give his bomb equipped aircraft a bit more leeway on targets. An American Commander would have done it, because that way while you can land a serious blow to their naval firepower, you can also add a bit of insult to injury by having some planes destroy vital shore-based infrastructure.
 
Thorthemighty said:
You know, the raid commander could be given orders to give his bomb equipped aircraft a bit more leeway on targets. An American Commander would have done it, because that way while you can land a serious blow to their naval firepower, you can also add a bit of insult to injury by having some planes destroy vital shore-based infrastructure.
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This is one of the institutional differences between the IJN and USN. The IJN put a lot more emphasis on adherence to orders than to initiative.
 
In all honesty I want to see the attack on Pearl Harbor happen as in OTL, regardless of all the changes made to Pearl due to butterflies. I want to see the IJN commanders be smugly condescending when they hear rumors of US Shipgirls and declare that there is no way for the US to have discovered the Kamis of the ships because Glorious Nippon, only for the upgraded defenses utterly shred the Japanese attacking waves. Waves that send all the pilots to die because it is better to die then to shame ones self by fleeing.

Then I remember that the author is better then that, and that we will likely have some kind of awesome scenes that both tugs at our hearts and cheer at the actions taken.
 
Skywalker_T-65 said:
It does amuse me that our MC keeps getting called Richardson :V
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Frankly, I'm amazed I got the -son part right. I am approximately the world's worst at remembering names, to the point that I can look at someone wearing a name tag, read it, and then get it wrong by the time I've said "Hello, it's nice to meet you ____" :oops: It's why I picked something so easy to remember as a userID.
 
Spectre said:
also we're talking about a military who barely understood the concept and importance of logistics for there own forces let alone the enemies.
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ILurk said:
"Protect our merchant marine from commerce raiding? Why ever would we do such a thing? Where's the honor in that, the glory!?"
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This had more to do with the political and wartime environment suddenly changing underneath them. Their immediate fleet is more than good enough for sinking the US Pacific Fleet that is trying to secure the waters around the Philippines. The island outposts were meant to be sacrificed to do damage, not the other way around. Thus it is understandable that a navy with a defensive mindset would not pay much attention to the difficulties of projecting seapower across the Pacific.

The US also had the fortune to be blessed with a strong industry and the luxury of being able to devote more manpower to industry than the Axis. Practically this means that the USN could afford costly mistakes better than its counterpart. It also means that the USN can provide sufficient escorts for its convoys while retaining destroyers for fleet actions. In comparison, Japan could only afford the resources and time for either sea lane protection or fleet actions. While in hindsight Japan made many erroneous decisions, some systematic and some personal, it should not be judged for not having the latitude of the United States.
 
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