I mean I am sure we can spin those as steps to ensure the colonization of space or something.
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition
- Thread starter Blackstar
- Start date
- Alt. History Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- [REDACTED]
I'm sure there's a fair amount of, for lack of a better term, fear-mongering, we could do about what would happen if we let the US dominate space.
You think they should reject a space program that can cost effectively provide weather sats and spy sats? O.O
Well darn. OK.
I think you are extremely wrong. Being able to put capable satellites into geostationary orbit and below have a huge impact on prosperity and military power on the ground. And being able to do that for prices that mean satellites are commodity hardware, not more valuable per gram than platinum, has real benefits in terms of reducing the cost of stuff we have to do anyway and opening up options for more capable satellites than less economical space launch capacity allows. A 1 tonne geostationary satellite and a 5 tonne geostationary satellite may have a 5-fold mass difference, but they have more than just a 5-fold difference in effectiveness - economies of scale mean that bigger satellites can be FAR more capable and long-lived.
Regards,
fasquardon
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We know that space efforts are the key to the future, but it's still 1962. The potential is vague and the costs are high, except for small numbers of scientists and visionaries. Politicians are likely to fall on the side of seeing a space budget as pork to be raided and used elsewhere.
On that note, this is a major reason we need to weaken the socialist realism policies, so that Soviet scifi can flourish and help publicize the vision of a spacefaring future.
On that note, this is a major reason we need to weaken the socialist realism policies, so that Soviet scifi can flourish and help publicize the vision of a spacefaring future.
- Location
- Italy
all the rocketry talk is interesting, and I definitely agree that we should prioritize reducing costs with economies of scale when possible instead of prioritizing a single impressive mission that will cripple us long term.
Assuming, of course, we can convince the Supreme Soviet. Though explaining the benefits of spy sats and comm sats should at least be doable...
on a different note:
aggregate to bring down building cost, especially with how much moscow and auto-houses will consume.
steel, because we want to keep it high for mass use.
Electricity, because damn we're so close to negative values!
non-ferrous, because our aluminum is expensive and I imagine we'd benefit a LOT from bringing the costs down there.
they're all pretty important.
Assuming, of course, we can convince the Supreme Soviet. Though explaining the benefits of spy sats and comm sats should at least be doable...
on a different note:
aggregate to bring down building cost, especially with how much moscow and auto-houses will consume.
steel, because we want to keep it high for mass use.
Electricity, because damn we're so close to negative values!
non-ferrous, because our aluminum is expensive and I imagine we'd benefit a LOT from bringing the costs down there.
they're all pretty important.
- Location
- Europe
All this discourse may be interesting, but... All the projects which are available for the Moon effort, minus the expanded Luna program, are also extremely good for the next space efforts.
And even that one cites its relations with the others planetary explorations programs, so it likely would not influence the schedule for a Moon launch, but would just give the cosmonauts shitty landing gears when they reach their objective, possibly killing them in the process, or even leaving them stranded.
And even that one cites its relations with the others planetary explorations programs, so it likely would not influence the schedule for a Moon launch, but would just give the cosmonauts shitty landing gears when they reach their objective, possibly killing them in the process, or even leaving them stranded.
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oh the water option mentions installing high flow systems
would it be good to focus on that during renovations as well to ensure new buildings have these systems in mind?
would it be good to focus on that during renovations as well to ensure new buildings have these systems in mind?
Informational: A Report on the Allocation of Ministry Funds During the 5th Five Year Plan
- Location
- UTC+0
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They
A Report on the Allocation of Ministry Funds During the 5th Five Year Plan
- Chart Detailing Expenditures During the 5th Five Year Plan
Authored by Nikolai Voznesensky, Deputy Minister of the MNKh
Published January 2nd 1955
A correct focus on the expansion and modernization of the heavy industrial sector, along with hefty targets set for an increase in capital goods production has necessitated that the largest amount of funding be directed to the sector. To address the latter, significant work has been put facilities in Gorky, which have shown significant promise in the increase of technical sophistication in the sector. That, along with the construction of several automotive plants, the refitting of Magnitogorsk's metallurgical plant to produce aggregate as well as a aluminium processing facility in Stalingrad, have both significantly bolstered the Union's balance sheets, as well as provided a sturdy base for the further development of the productive forces.
Following the previous' plan focus on the build-up of infrastructure, the amount of funds directed towards its development has remained excessive, and with the revelation of shocking levels of corruption within the department itself it is clear that changes will be necessary in order to ensure the misallocation of funds critical for the development of our industry does not repeat itself. That is not to say that some progress has not been made however, despite the lack of judgement show by the current its current head. The construction of housing has ever increased to keep up with demand, and the construction and expansion of the unified grid and run of the river dams has served our industry well, and the construction of pipelines to the European states in the Council of Mutual Economic Assistance has ensured we dominate their energy markets and provided a great boon to their economies.
Whilst suffering a decrease as a slice of the budget, funding the Light and Chemical Industry has as in the last plan, remained third in priority. Notable projects in this sector has been the expansion of extractive and refining capacity for West Siberian oil, an increase of production of plastics, the introduction of metering in order to curb excessive and dangerous use of the electric grid and the construction of a plant producing computers for the use of educational institutions and enterprises. Developments in power production have also provided a use for the plentiful gas available to us, with a pipeline in the works to distribute it and various deposits extracted in order to heat and power the Union.
Whilst some money was diverted towards less productive projects such as the construction of Sociological Institutes and the creation of grants for artists, some important progress has been made in developing the Union's healthcare, with many hospitals being modernized and medical universities being expanded and founded. Of note has been the expansion of childcare, which should free up a significant labor force to serve in our industries as needed.
A decrease in funding has not diminished the capabilities of the sector it seems, whilst least in importance compared to other sectors, good progress has been made into making use of the rural masses. Of note, the further development of factory farming and the dairy industries has provided for notable gains in profitability. That, and the expansion of fish farming and the introduction of several luxury crops has been key in maintaining worker morale.
Due to differences in opinion within the party as to who should have responsibility over the rocketry program, as a compromise it has fallen onto the Ministry the burden of organizing, expanding and directing the disparate OKB's involved in the field in order to accomplish military and technical-scientific goals.
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- Location
- Northish
I think the hardware for the high flow water pressure is at the municipal water plants not at each housing block individually. I doubt we are building our current urban areas with plumbing so weak we are looking at burst piping from a moderate pressure bump.
You'll notice that I focus on things like effective carrier rockets and a potential manned capability to do science and potentially satellite-related missions. Not on spending vast fortunes on moon bases or orbital propellant depots. There's just not that many jobs to be done in space and the OTL NASA was actually able to accomplish them reasonably well despite its high costs. There's only so many pictures of the USA that will be useful, and communications and navigation will face limitations for a long time until the USSR can develop sufficiently capable computer systems to make it viable and useful(also we can just build hard lines for many applications).
- Location
- The great frozen north
100 progress: Very likely with two dice, but guaranteed with three dice. I think three dice per turn is the safe bet, I'd rather your plan have three on Moscow but I'll probably still vote for it with two.
As for new hires, I'm looking forwards to them but I am dreading what penalties we might get from inexperienced personnel. With two free dice in the works from Moscow, and likely budget cuts in the 8th plan, I would like to keep the rate of hiring slow. Get one or two dice now to fix the service issue, then we'll be good for a while.
As for space... Look Fasquardon, I get your feelings, I really do. I would really like a sustainable space program that can keep pushing humanity's frontiers. But...
It's not "moonshot victory versus build sustainable space program". It's "moonshot victory vs build foundations for sustainable space infrastructure and make the SupSov very cranky". Because if the USA just sent Apollo 8 to send a man around the moon, and we're off building space truck stops rather than hammering out an immediate response, people will notice that we're not chasing the victory and will come down on us even if we haven't actually lost yet. We just had to cancel some stuff including the pretty useful MKAS because we were forced to cut budget and had to appease Aristov by cutting things that look the least moonshot-y.
And while we didn't explicitly promise beating the Yankees to the moon, I'm not sure we explicitly promised putting the first man in orbit, or the first satellite- but look how pissy the SupSov got when we failed that one!
....sigh. Sometimes it feels we're even more politically restricted than the Stalin era, then if we expected to fail something we could at least make contingencies for tanking a -50 party support loss, here things are so much more abstract and hard to follow. I know it's ultimately for the better, but still.
Tittle erroneously refers to the 4th rather than 5th plan. Heh, The Voz calling sociology less productive makes me angry, but other than that he feels pretty impressed with our work. As he should be, I think Malenkov did a good job setting a new direction for the MNKh in the 5th plan.
Did this happen in the fifth plan? I thought the end of the plan was when we got a nat 1 on oil/gas, and we only unlocked our modern has power plants with the nat 100 in H2 1956.
Moratorium is over, I'm going with my plan. Next turn we can put a bunch of dice plus a focus on Moscow
[X] Plan Medical Minded, Moscow Moderation
-[X]2015/2015 Resources (0 Reserve), 36 Dice Rolled
Infrastructure (8/5 Dice, 525 R)
-[X]Secondary City Metro Lines(Stage 5), 1 Dice (75 R)
-[X]Moscow Renovation, 2 Dice (120 R)
-[X]Passenger Rail Network(Western SU), 4 Dice (280 R)
-[X]Civilian Airports(Stage 2), 1 Dice (50 R)
Heavy Industry (8/8 Dice, 620 R)
-[X]Aggregate Processing Plants, 2 Dice (100 R)
-[X]Kolomna Locomotive Works Modernization, 2 Dice (120 R)
-[X]Bekabad Metallurgical Plant, 3 Dice (300 R)
-[X]Coal Power Plants, 1 Dice (100 R)
Rocketry (3/3 Dice, 110 R)
-[X]Cosmodrome Expansion, 1 Dice (40 R)
-[X]EVA Suit Programs, 1 Dice
-[X]Hypersonic Wind Tunnel, 1 Dice (70 R)
Light and Chemical Industry (8/8 Dice, 470 R)
-[X]Consumable Product Initiatives(Stage 1), 2 Dice (100 R)
-[X]Book Production, 1 Dice (50 R)
-[X]Electrified Appliance Production, 2 Dice (120 R)
-[X]Heat Pump Plants(Stage 1), 2 Dice (150 R)
-[X]Textile Industry Modernization(Stage 2), 1 Dice (50 R)
Agriculture (4/4 Dice, 190 R)
-[X]Farming Supply Provisioning, 1 Dice (40 R)
-[X]Agricultural Diversification, 3 Dice (150 R)
Services (2/0 Dice, 100 R)
-[X]Medial System Standardization, 2 Dice (100 R)
Bureaucracy (5/5 Dice, 0 R)
-[X]Dedicate Focus Towards a Project(Passenger Rail Network(Western SU)), 1 Dice
-[X]Dedicate Focus Towards a Project(Bekabad Metallurgical Plant), 1 Dice
-[X]Currency Agitation, 1 Dice
-[X]Determine Coalitional Alignments, 2 Dice
[X] Plan Medical Minded, Moscow Moderation
-[X]2015/2015 Resources (0 Reserve), 36 Dice Rolled
Infrastructure (8/5 Dice, 525 R)
-[X]Secondary City Metro Lines(Stage 5), 1 Dice (75 R)
-[X]Moscow Renovation, 2 Dice (120 R)
-[X]Passenger Rail Network(Western SU), 4 Dice (280 R)
-[X]Civilian Airports(Stage 2), 1 Dice (50 R)
Heavy Industry (8/8 Dice, 620 R)
-[X]Aggregate Processing Plants, 2 Dice (100 R)
-[X]Kolomna Locomotive Works Modernization, 2 Dice (120 R)
-[X]Bekabad Metallurgical Plant, 3 Dice (300 R)
-[X]Coal Power Plants, 1 Dice (100 R)
Rocketry (3/3 Dice, 110 R)
-[X]Cosmodrome Expansion, 1 Dice (40 R)
-[X]EVA Suit Programs, 1 Dice
-[X]Hypersonic Wind Tunnel, 1 Dice (70 R)
Light and Chemical Industry (8/8 Dice, 470 R)
-[X]Consumable Product Initiatives(Stage 1), 2 Dice (100 R)
-[X]Book Production, 1 Dice (50 R)
-[X]Electrified Appliance Production, 2 Dice (120 R)
-[X]Heat Pump Plants(Stage 1), 2 Dice (150 R)
-[X]Textile Industry Modernization(Stage 2), 1 Dice (50 R)
Agriculture (4/4 Dice, 190 R)
-[X]Farming Supply Provisioning, 1 Dice (40 R)
-[X]Agricultural Diversification, 3 Dice (150 R)
Services (2/0 Dice, 100 R)
-[X]Medial System Standardization, 2 Dice (100 R)
Bureaucracy (5/5 Dice, 0 R)
-[X]Dedicate Focus Towards a Project(Passenger Rail Network(Western SU)), 1 Dice
-[X]Dedicate Focus Towards a Project(Bekabad Metallurgical Plant), 1 Dice
-[X]Currency Agitation, 1 Dice
-[X]Determine Coalitional Alignments, 2 Dice
- Location
- The great frozen north
Lighting up my plan too, now with cosmodrome!. Next turn, I saw we finish the steel mill, and finish off rolls royce!
[X] Plan Planes Trains and Roads guest starring the Medical Push
-[X]2005/2015 Resources (10 Reserve), 38 Dice Rolled
Infrastructure (8/5 Dice, 490 R)
-[X]Moscow Renovation, 3 Dice (180 R)
-[X]Passenger Rail Network(Western SU), 2 Dice (140 R)
-[X]Trans-Siberian Road, 2 Dice (120 R)
-[X]Civilian Airports(Stage 2), 1 Dice (50 R)
Heavy Industry (8/8 Dice, 620 R)
-[X]Aggregate Processing Plants, 2 Dice (100 R)
-[X]Kolomna Locomotive Works Modernization, 2 Dice (120 R)
-[X]Bekabad Metallurgical Plant, 3 Dice (300 R)
-[X]Coal Power Plants, 1 Dice (100 R)
Rocketry (3/3 Dice, 110 R)
-[X]Cosmodrome Expansion, 1 Dice (40 R)
-[X]EVA Suit Programs, 1 Dice
-[X]Hypersonic Wind Tunnel, 1 Dice (70 R)
Light and Chemical Industry (8/8 Dice, 485 R)
-[X]Consumable Product Initiatives(Stage 1), 1 Dice (50 R)
-[X]Book Production, 1 Dice (50 R)
-[X]Heat Pump Plants(Stage 1), 3 Dice (225 R)
-[X]Textile Industry Modernization(Stage 2), 1 Dice (50 R)
-[X]Chemicalization of Alcohol Production, 2 Dice (100 R)
Agriculture (4/4 Dice, 200 R)
-[X]Agricultural Diversification, 2 Dice (100 R)
-[X]Light Transportation Systems, 2 Dice (100 R)
Services (2/0 Dice, 100 R)
-[X]Medial System Standardization, 2 Dice (100 R)
Bureaucracy (5/5 Dice, 0 R)
-[X]Dedicate Focus Towards a Project(Moscow),
-[X]Dedicate Focus Towards a Project(Bekabad),
-[X]Dedicate Focus Towards a Project(Heat Pumps),
-[X]Determine Coalitional Alignments, 2 Dice
I could potentially be pursuaded to swap the heat pump focus for currency agitation, I'm right on the edge there.
[X] Plan Planes Trains and Roads guest starring the Medical Push
-[X]2005/2015 Resources (10 Reserve), 38 Dice Rolled
Infrastructure (8/5 Dice, 490 R)
-[X]Moscow Renovation, 3 Dice (180 R)
-[X]Passenger Rail Network(Western SU), 2 Dice (140 R)
-[X]Trans-Siberian Road, 2 Dice (120 R)
-[X]Civilian Airports(Stage 2), 1 Dice (50 R)
Heavy Industry (8/8 Dice, 620 R)
-[X]Aggregate Processing Plants, 2 Dice (100 R)
-[X]Kolomna Locomotive Works Modernization, 2 Dice (120 R)
-[X]Bekabad Metallurgical Plant, 3 Dice (300 R)
-[X]Coal Power Plants, 1 Dice (100 R)
Rocketry (3/3 Dice, 110 R)
-[X]Cosmodrome Expansion, 1 Dice (40 R)
-[X]EVA Suit Programs, 1 Dice
-[X]Hypersonic Wind Tunnel, 1 Dice (70 R)
Light and Chemical Industry (8/8 Dice, 485 R)
-[X]Consumable Product Initiatives(Stage 1), 1 Dice (50 R)
-[X]Book Production, 1 Dice (50 R)
-[X]Heat Pump Plants(Stage 1), 3 Dice (225 R)
-[X]Textile Industry Modernization(Stage 2), 1 Dice (50 R)
-[X]Chemicalization of Alcohol Production, 2 Dice (100 R)
Agriculture (4/4 Dice, 200 R)
-[X]Agricultural Diversification, 2 Dice (100 R)
-[X]Light Transportation Systems, 2 Dice (100 R)
Services (2/0 Dice, 100 R)
-[X]Medial System Standardization, 2 Dice (100 R)
Bureaucracy (5/5 Dice, 0 R)
-[X]Dedicate Focus Towards a Project(Moscow),
-[X]Dedicate Focus Towards a Project(Bekabad),
-[X]Dedicate Focus Towards a Project(Heat Pumps),
-[X]Determine Coalitional Alignments, 2 Dice
I could potentially be pursuaded to swap the heat pump focus for currency agitation, I'm right on the edge there.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Never mind. Just... never mind. I don't want to talk to you about this anymore.
Prestige isn't nothing.
It's hard to quantify, but people and countries are often influenced by informal, intangible factors when forming their opinions of a nation, and in making choices about who to align with or deal with. Sputnik, for instance, did a lot to bolster the USSR's credibility as an equal competitor against the US, precisely because it was a feat the United States had not yet duplicated.
Those things only get you so far, of course, especially if the advantages of "soft power" that they confer are squandered. But they're not nothing.
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I understand why you think that, but what you see in space is basically for a fair part a result of how expensive it is to get there. For instance now that getting to space dropped to half the cost of before, suddenly massive communication systems are being made. It's actually recently reached the point that some countries, having seen how effective they are, have basically declared them a strategic national interest and will make their own.
So I guess we're now in a mode where mega communication constellations are now a permanent feature... because launch costs dropped and making mass produced communication sats is thus reasonable.
Well I'll admit technology plays in to this a bit as well, but never the less, there is a confluence between cost and what you do in space. And beyond communication there are yet further ideas that have been delayed over and over again due to costs. But some of those seem like they might start moving forward now as well, like space tugs and space propellant systems. Actually those two are complementary, as you can use the propellant to fill the tug, which then brings it to a sat and for instance refuels it. Which is a cost saving, and this isn't theoretical anymore, recently they've been sending up some things to extend sat life already.
How ever having said all this, I think fasquardron is being a little overdramatic as well. Our current course is actually reasonable already, the moon shot is pushing what is basically a medium-heavy rocket system tech forward rapidly. And that's exactly the kind of stack you can keep using and improving for a very long time to come. You just have to invest in to the right things for cost savings as they come up. The chance of us being left with nothing after the moon shot seems pretty unlikely to me as such, the rocket and a lot of the tech and techniques can be recycled for other purposes afterwards.
So I think we can make our current situation work for us, even if using the RLA to get to the moon was an extra hurdle at first compared to just getting a big rocket.
I think getting the Euro up and running would be very good for improving trade and we really need to make sure we're well-prepared for the transition. Also, Agricultural Diversification is only using 150R this turn, I have ~200R as the point where I want a focus on a project.
It is, I'm going to remind everyone, 1962 in the quest. You are not deploying a massive communications constellation into LEO. It is several different varieties of impossible. The USSR lacks the capability to build a sufficiently capable networking system into the satellites. Like, no equivalent exists for a ground based system, let alone somehow stuffing a mainframe-level computer into a satellite and launching it into space and having it survive any length of time, or paying for all the required computers. Even if you could, you'd need a capable transmitter/receiver on the ground, which as noted doesn't exist. And at that point, what would such a system even be for? There's no demand for data all across the union, because the systems to consume and present that data to people simply do not exist in most of the union.
Space refueling is maybe an idea but it's a very technically thorny problem and adding fuel reserves to satellites is not that much of a penalty until you get to meaningful mass ratios.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Would there be a way to swap one of the LCI options over to something cheaper to afford to put Farming Supply Provisioning on Light Transportation Systems? Since even the description for Agricultural Diversification mentions that one of the biggest issues in the agri sector is a lack of refrigerated trucks, which LTS is supposed to work to solve.
I don't see any reasonable changes to LCI. IMO the most reasonable switch to afford that would be -1 Rail, +1 Moscow, but personally I prefer my current plan.
Oh I agree on the space comm for the most part, it's not happening in the 60s, it probably won't happen in the 70s as that's still to early. But I could perhaps see it in the 80s as a voice service and perhaps some data, which is already pretty useful for the military and others in a similar communication situation. So still a ways off, but close enough to show one could accelerate the progression of things a fair bit still as well.
As for the space refueling/tug thing, that's actually less hard then one thinks. Or rather it's only hard now because it's not a service, and so no one built a docking station on any sats so they could dock and just connect a fuel transfer system then and there. It's basically one of those techs that only really happens once you provide the service as a demonstrator with perhaps a few sats made for purpose as well and then everyone goes.... oh wait that's really useful. I think this could be realistic for the later 70s when automatic docking systems should be possible, so something to do a bit after the moon mission.
Well, as I suspect you already agree for. One will just have to work on the good ideas as budget and technology permits.
