Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition

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This is pretty unlikely since such a psycho amendment would have to be passed by a majority of the Senate. So while some nut job could propose it I can't see it actually making it through the legal process.
Huge numbers of Americans think, and thought in the 1970s, for whatever reason, that national deficit is just the worst thing in the world and that balancing the budget is absolutely vital. It's one of the core underpinnings that made it possible for the modern Republican Party to exist in its present form.

The idea that the US government runs a deficit just seems to fill a sizeable minority of American citizens with rage and they are willing to cripple the country rather than allow it to continue. And a lot of other people just shrug and accept that this is okay.

Also rural roads, but we might pass them soon- IIRC Blackstar said that stage 3 of local roads represents a level of road network that not even the USA has fully reached OTL.
Frankly that's a damn good argument for stopping at Stage 2. We probably do need Stage 2, but that places Stage 3, I would think, in the category of "obsessive-compulsively extending the network dangerously far past the point of diminishing returns."

Remember that time we had a... I think it was a 1400-point project option to do gauge conversions on every random little mountain railroad in teh Balkans, in the immediate post-WWII era when even more of the roads were dirt and we still had extensive wartime damage to repair and the baby boomers were being born and there was basically no housing and so on and so on?

I think that Stage 3 rural roads would be in that category.

I feel like a better USSR would also be pushing the US to keep advancing faster as well. After all the NA rolls are for the government mostly from what I can tell not private companies and innovation.

That and there manned space program is apparently better than ours, still waiting on the American space station.
To be very clear here, in the quest the United States still has the advantage in technology in almost every field. The most sophisticated things the US can do at any given time, the USSR usually cannot duplicate as a technical feat. Their computers are a little ahead of ours, their machine tools are a little ahead of ours, and so on, and so on.

This translates directly into advantages in the manned space program, in that when the US funds something (NASA does not exist as I recall in this timeline) they have a lot of good aerospace tech to put into making it happen. It also translates into the fact that by one of the simplest, most easily understood metrics ("who had pocket calculators/CNC machine tools/this/that/other thing first?"), the US tends to win a lot. They invent, not literally everything, but metaphorically everything, years before we do. And you can say "that's private innovation doing great stuff."

HOWEVER.

That kind of 'firsts' is not necessarily the only way to measure how well a country is doing, or how prominent and successful it is in world geopolitics. It is arguably not the best way, either.

The USSR has a much, much stronger industrial and economic base than in OTL, both per-person and in absolute terms. It has the means to support a considerably higher "developed world" lifestyle than was available to the typical Soviet citizen in 1979 in real life. The wait time to get an automobile is shorter. The commieblock apartments are nicer and much better furnished. The appliances in the commieblocks could plausibly pass Underwriters' Laboratory safety standards. People are starting to get credit and debit cards. Pocket calculators are increasingly common and there is a thriving Soviet computer industry that does not hinge entirely on reverse-engineering and copying American designs. The clothes are, I'm pretty sure, more comfortable, the variety of food available is, I'm pretty sure, greater and of somewhat higher quality.

On the global stage, the USSR has fairly strong economic ties to a larger bloc of nations. The equivalent of the Warsaw Pact in Eastern Europe stretches all the way to the Rhine, the US is on better economic terms with communist China, and also with other Asian nations like India and Indonesia and Japan (not all communist). The USSR's large industrial base serves it fairly well in this respect because it can export to this wide market- we can actually make very significant $$$ by building luxury car factories because people, both in the USSR and overseas, are buying them. Conversely, the US's global network of influence through international institutions is weakened relative to OTL; some of the institutions that power leans on do not exist and others are smaller than in OTL.

Even in light of knowing how the Soviet Union collapsed in the late 1980s and early 1990s, it seems very unlikely to everyone involved, including the QM, that this version of the USSR will collapse at any point in the foreseeable future, including and beyond the year 2000.

...

Meanwhile, the US is not clearly and unambiguously doing better, but rather differently. There have been some significant alternate-historical butterflies in their political history, and they are still an immensely wealthy industrialized nation. But they are not unlimited, and the limiting factor on how much the US can accomplish is not, in fact, merely "motivation to keep up with the Soviets." They have their own internal political struggles and their own big rocks to carry, and that can easily hamstring them in competing with us, just as our own rocks to carry can limit our ability to compete with them.

The us military still uses conscription as well here.
Yeah, but conscription is nowhere near as burdensome when your country isn't actually fighting bloody foreign wars, something I gather that the US in this timeline has avoided.

Looking back at the grimdark prophecy, it almost did come to pass. France went fairly psycho and the UK did return to naked imperialism for a period, it was only the US that steered away from the dark timeline.
Well, the thing is, British imperialism postwar took the form of trying to keep India by force. This was a terrible idea and it immediately caused them to blow out a tendon, resulting in the downfall of the Churchill government and basically taking them off the stage as far as strategic relevance was concerned (we almost never hear about them in the foreign affairs updates).

They'd have been far more dangerous as a notional far-right imperialist power if they hadn't taken a massive hit from trying to keep India, which in turn left much of their populace probably very, very unwilling to do anything that would result in more of them dying to ensure that the sun really never sets on the British Empire.
 
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Also rural roads, but we might pass them soon- IIRC Blackstar said that stage 3 of local roads represents a level of road network that not even the USA has fully reached OTL.

Also @Blackstar I asked earlier but perhaps it was lost in the plan-making shuffle: How come the description of our deputy Zemlyannikova in the infopost just calls her a civil engineer, while in the update where the vote for deputies happened she was described as also having a comprehensive economics education.
You are not over-matching the modern US road network with anything you are currently attempting or looking at, you are not remotely approaching it because of your systematic under-funding of the road system that is leading to most other infrastructure getting cut as a means of desperately catching up. Like, the situation is desperately bad and you have been progressing at maybe a quarter of the rate that the actual ministers want to have you caught up by the end of the next decade. Also, Bala how would I put it, doesn't entirely value that experience as a part of a softer science and respects her far more as an engineer then as an economist. She has the degree/education, however that is mostly not her job TM as Balakirev sees it.
 
In other words we have not learned a thing and this road phobia has continued for most of this quest's history. First it was with malenkov where our roads were pure mud and we had stage 3 expanded to like 500 than with Voz that had klimenko have to focus a plan on roads and now once again we will have to most likely have to focus another plan or 2 to catch up on our neglect of roads
 
Our economy would probably be double the size it is now if it wasn't for people fearing roads and economic development.

People need to stop being afraid of roads. Our economic development is actively being impacted by the lack of roads. Soviet citizens in rural areas cannot visit nearby towns and cities because they lack roads. These people rely on these towns and cities for almost everything they need including food. Cities and towns also need a large amount of roads to supply themselves. How will a grocery store in a city or town, especially a rural town keep its shelves stocked when there is a lack of road infrastructure? How will a dump truck drive around a city and pick up trash when there are no roads? How will goods be transferred from a train arriving in a city to a grocery store in the city if there is no road in between?

And we also have people here who are afraid of economic development. It is not possible to transition to cleaner forms of energy if your country is underdeveloped. You first need to coal to make solar panels. I said it before but I will say it again: if Moscow is not a smog ridden city by the end of this century, we did something wrong. There is a reason why in real life, third world countries in Africa are looking towards China instead of the US. Because western countries like the US force these poor underdeveloped countries to not build factories and coal power plants in fear of destroying the environment and then wonder why these countries that lack electricity can't produce a solar power plant in a factory that requires electricity. We are basically doing the exact same thing but to ourselves.
 
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And we also have people here who are afraid of economic development. It is not possible to transition to cleaner forms of energy if your country is underdeveloped. You first need to coal to make solar panels. I said it before but I will say it again: if Moscow is not a smog ridden city by the end of this century, we did something wrong. There is a reason why in real life, third world countries in Africa are looking towards China instead of the US. Because western countries like the US force these poor underdeveloped countries to not build factories and coal power plants in fear of destroying the environment and then wonder why these countries that lack electricity can't produce a solar power plant in a factory that requires electricity. We are basically doing the exact same thing but to ourselves
This is a disingenuous statement. The USSR ITL is well past the level of development necessary to bootstrap itself through a green transition, the only thing it lacks now is the tech that will come in time. So no, weighing the environmental costs of individual development projects against their benefits is not self defeating as you are stating. It's just normal cost benefit analysis.
 
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This is a completely disingenuous statement. The USSR ITL is well past the level of development necessary to bootstrap itself through a green transition, the only thing it lacks now is the tech that will come in time. So no, weighing the environmental costs of individual development projects against their benefits is not self defeating as you are stating. It's just normal cost benefit analysis.

I thought our level of development was comparable to modern day China? China can't transition to green energy hence why they build dozens of new coal power plants every year.
 
I thought our level of development was comparable to modern day China? China can't transition to green energy hence why they build dozens of new coal power plants every year.

You might wanna update your numbers there. China is building renewables faster than any other major power now, and their current coal plants are capacity buffering or replacing old coal burners with more efficient ones. And then on top of that they're building pretty much the entire planet's supply of photovoltaics.
 
They very much can, they would just have to accept that they would stop growing at more than 5% gdp per year to achieve it, until they achieved it.

They very much can't. Half of the Chinese population still lives in relatively poor conditions. Much of our population is still rural. Rural areas are in need of modernization which requires electricity. Many people in rural areas will also move to the cities which again requires electricity. A good portion of our population still lives in relatively poor conditions.

Even in modern day Russia in OTL, much of the rural population lives in similar conditions to the Chinese rural population. Do you want to see pictures of impoverished villages in Russia? And that is in 2025. Today.

You might wanna update your numbers there. China is building renewables faster than any other major power now, and their current coal plants are capacity buffering or replacing old coal burners with more efficient ones. And then on top of that they're building pretty much the entire planet's supply of photovoltaics.

China was responsible for 95% of coal power plants built in 2023. They were approving the construction of two new coal power plants every week.
 
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You are not over-matching the modern US road network with anything you are currently attempting or looking at, you are not remotely approaching it because of your systematic under-funding of the road system that is leading to most other infrastructure getting cut as a means of desperately catching up. Like, the situation is desperately bad and you have been progressing at maybe a quarter of the rate that the actual ministers want to have you caught up by the end of the next decade. Also, Bala how would I put it, doesn't entirely value that experience as a part of a softer science and respects her far more as an engineer then as an economist. She has the degree/education, however that is mostly not her job TM as Balakirev sees it.
So to be clear, completing the Local Roads projects through Stage 3 does not involve extending the local road network beyond the scale that the US now has?

Obviously, we're currently looking at the reality that we haven't even got Local Roads Stage 1 in any region, but I'm just trying to make sure I understand what the stages represent. If we have to complete more than an average of three stages (where each stage, USSR-wide, would be something like 1000+ Progress) just to get the level the US has, then that's even more indicative.

I'm just trying to get a sense for the magnitude of the deficit as measured in Progress, recognizing that while the US has in some ways overbuilt its road network a little, what we actually legitimately need outside of urban areas looks a lot more like what the US has in real life in the present day than it does like what the USSR has in the quest's 1978.
 
I'm just trying to get a sense for the magnitude of the deficit as measured in Progress, recognizing that while the US has in some ways overbuilt its road network a little, what we actually legitimately need outside of urban areas looks a lot more like what the US has in real life in the present day than it does like what the USSR has in the quest's 1978.

I live in the rural US. If there were less roads, I don't think most communities here would survive. If people think the road network in the US outside of cities is too car-centric, they don't understand how economies work. Hell, in many areas the road network in the rural US is actually in need of improvement. The only road that connects me to the nearest town is a poorly maintained gravel road that was built at the start of the 20th century.
 
They very much can't. Half of the Chinese population still lives in relatively poor conditions. Much of our population is still rural. Rural areas are in need of modernization which requires electricity. Many people in rural areas will also move to the cities which again requires electricity. A good portion of our population still lives in relatively poor conditions.

Even in modern day Russia in OTL, much of the rural population lives in similar conditions to the Chinese rural population. Do you want to see pictures of impoverished villages in Russia? And that is in 2025. Today.



China was responsible for 95% of coal power plants built in 2023. They were approving the construction of two new coal power plants every week.
First did you even read what you linked to? "Rural society in the People's Republic of China encompasses less than half of China's population", "in southern and coastal China, rural areas are developing and, in some cases, statistically approaching urban economies." so how did you get "Half of the Chinese population still lives in relatively poor conditions"? Second did you read MSH post? its not that long, here i will quote the important bit "their current coal plants are capacity buffering or replacing old coal burners with more efficient ones". Third the video about painting the grass is called Hyrdroseeding, the Paint to to show where you have sprayed.
 
First did you even read what you linked to? "Rural society in the People's Republic of China encompasses less than half of China's population", "in southern and coastal China, rural areas are developing and, in some cases, statistically approaching urban economies." so how did you get "Half of the Chinese population still lives in relatively poor conditions"? Second did you read MSH post? its not that long, here i will quote the important bit "their current coal plants are capacity buffering or replacing old coal burners with more efficient ones". Third the video about painting the grass is called Hyrdroseeding, the Paint to to show where you have sprayed.

45% is half. You are just being pedantic. There is also a reason why it states "in some cases". The overall living standards in rural China are still poor.

He disproved that it was hydroseeding. I guess making fake plants using rebar is also good for the environment.
 
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There is a reason why in real life, third world countries in Africa are looking towards China instead of the US. Because western countries like the US force these poor underdeveloped countries to not build factories and coal power plants in fear of destroying the environment and then wonder why these countries that lack electricity can't produce a solar power plant in a factory that requires electricity. We are basically doing the exact same thing but to ourselves.
Not quite, on several levels.

First, a lot of Third World countries look to China, not the US, not because the US is hitting them with some kind of unsupportable environmental mandate (it's not), but because China actually manufactures stuff. In bulk. At relatively low prices. And China is leveraging that as part of its foreign policy, which the US cannot do, because our manufacturing base is hollowed out and Wall Street hasn't cared about that in decades.

Second, a modern, efficient coal-fired power plant also has to be built in a factory that requires electricity. Modern power plants use things like big expensive finely balanced turbines; they are not something you forge by hand or even something you turn out on Victorian-style machine tools that run on chain belts hooked up to watermills or something. As a practical matter, most of these countries are having to import the machinery they use in their power plants and other industrial facilities- which, again, they tend to import from China because they get more for their limited money.

Third, the USSR in-quest is already far beyond the point where inability to kickstart industrial technology is causing us the kind of traps that African countries in the real life present day suffer. We have a fully developed and functional industrial base. We've got a nuclear reactor megafactory that churns out 16 GW of generating capacity per year and is going to go on doing so for the foreseeable future. Are we still needing to build coal and gas power plants? Yes, but this isn't some kind of triumph or necessary precondition for us to have developed-nation status in the future. It's a practical matter.

I certainly won't call it a victory for Moscow to be a smoggy city in 2000. We can do better than that, especially in our capital.

People would rather let the ludites destroy all the computers then build one road......
...I don't think anyone ever actually faced that choice. Road construction has gotten support in recent plan votes, as I recall. It's not getting frantic full-bore construction, but that's because it's competing with a lot of stuff that's also important like "working sewage systems."

Even in modern day Russia in OTL, much of the rural population lives in similar conditions to the Chinese rural population. Do you want to see pictures of impoverished villages in Russia? And that is in 2025. Today.
Honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if rural villages in the quest's 1980-era USSR are economically better off than rural villages in 2025-era Russia.

2025-era rural Russia has experienced over thirty years of systematic looting of the economy and reduction of the nation to an oligarchic petrostate dominated by de facto dictators who have no interest in improving the welfare of the population. It's entirely possible for a community in Russia to be worse off now than it was in the late 1980s under the OTL Soviet Union... and in a lot of respects we are already outperforming the OTL Soviet Union at any time in its history.

Roads are, admittedly, one of our huge weak points and we have collectively done wrong on this subject! But that doesn't mean we've accomplished nothing.
 
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Even in modern day Russia in OTL, much of the rural population lives in similar conditions to the Chinese rural population. Do you want to see pictures of impoverished villages in Russia? And that is in 2025. Today.
Because almost no one lives in rural areas, mostly old people who just don't want to move from there or dacha owners who live there for a few months a year. Most people live either in urban-type villages ("ПГТ") or in cities.

I myself grew up in an urban-type settlement, and most of the surrounding villages are just ruins, as there is simply no one there. Because who needs them anyway? There is no enterprise production or work there, it's just houses in the middle of a field.
 
45% is half. You are just being pedantic. There is also a reason why it states "in some cases". The overall living standards in rural China are still poor.

He disproved that it was hydroseeding. I guess making fake plants using rebar is also good for the environment.

Do you have any sources besides a random youtube channel whose creator clearly has a massive hateboner for China? Given your history of making poorly sourced bold claims, I wanted to check.
 
Anybody know the full picture of our housing situation? Im trying to find clues in the last few turns but Im a bit lost.
Roughly speaking it's not great and not terrible? We're not in a massive rush to build housing, but a lot of older constructions need to be redone. There's also a need to renovate the housing to make it more efficient, ie the previous projects which gave us fuel and gas, but that's been put to the way side while we fix roads. Also by the end of this plan 5% of the population should be in communal housing.
 
45% is half. You are just being pedantic. There is also a reason why it states "in some cases". The overall living standards in rural China are still poor.

He disproved that it was hydroseeding. I guess making fake plants using rebar is also good for the environment.
I don't get how quoting some random ex-sexpat youtuber is supposed to prove anything, his entire video is random pictures with no source. I dont think some random guy who thinks "China is Now Replacing People with FAKES" and "China is Making Cars out of Noodles now?". Hydroseeding is well known technique, and i don't plan to watch some guy with no expertise in anything, attempt to gish gallop.

It is definitely less then half when the the total rural population is less then half and the population densest area is described as "statistically approaching urban economies". Try and do some math.
 
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I live in the rural US. If there were less roads, I don't think most communities here would survive. If people think the road network in the US outside of cities is too car-centric, they don't understand how economies work. Hell, in many areas the road network in the rural US is actually in need of improvement. The only road that connects me to the nearest town is a poorly maintained gravel road that was built at the start of the 20th century.
Fair. On the other hand, there's an aspect of 'diminishing returns' here. If you have to pave a 50-mile road connection to link some place up to the nearest town of more than fifty thousand people, you can, but the cost of maintaining the road (especially in Siberian winters) may well far exceed any economic return the nation as a whole will get from the road.

To be clear, I'm absolutely on board with the point that the quest's USSR has a huge road infrastructure deficit, we need more, we need a lot more and we need it pretty fast, it's just that there are limits.

On some level, the economic reality is that a lot of communities that exist in the rural areas of very large countries don't survive, and don't survive for a reason.
 
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