Well, it would certainly help if we bothered to check up on Zherys and Phassen.

Also should kinda prepare Tolos and Mantarys for integration.

And finally start the Tyrosh Scholarium branch. There's a minor action for it this month already.
This is a risky and questionable suggestion I am about to make.

Should we open our coffers to Relathand tell him to start building a navy for the Illithid war? We just don't have time.

Hes already going to the plane of water, Shown he can be discreet about it, is mildly trustworthy and hates the Illithid way more than almost anyone.

Also he is actually a native to the world's oceans. He can handle an underwater campaign.

I've brought it up a couple times but nobody ever enaged on it.

Naturally this would involve us on the planning stages, and as much oversight/spying as we can spare.

Edit: Relath is power hungry but I trust him way more than Zherys.
 
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We're a big fish, in vanilla DnD it often doesn't matter if you chill out and craft for a few months to catch up to your level. Here if we chill out for a few months the Illithid win, the Devil's, Daemons, Others and Fey all win until they lose to each other.

Our enemies are on an accelerated pace and so we must be too, we're so goddamn busy all the time we still haven't done much to prepare against the Illithid when that was the whole point of the ceasefire, time to prepare.

We just reprioritised the enemies who weren't in a ceasefire because they kept fucking shit up.

I wish I had a solution to slowing things down that would make sense in-world and not make Viserys a negligent prick of a King, unworthy of the narrative to date.
Frankly, you are wrong here.

This month, we've spent most on Viserys time on planar shopping, PoF raiding, now murdering the Bey and the largest time-sink is Valyria. Add to that 2 days of Westerosi intrigue that is tangentially related to Devils at this point, three days of making Amrelath a new body and a grand total of 1 day to talk with the Iron Born about their squid infestation.


The vast majority of our time is spent on random adventures, not fighting any threats to Planetos.


We could cut 20+ days of Viserys Actions this months without affecting the political situation of the Imperium or Planetos safety.
 
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[X] Goldfish

I'm not really up on D&D to know the answer but can we actually trust this person enough to be this direct with the questions we ask? I guess Garin can mess with their memory but that seems like the kind of thing that could be prepared for.
 
Frankly, you are wrong here.

This month, we've spent most on Viserys time on planar shopping, PoF raiding, now murdering the Bey and the largest time-sink is Valyria. Add to that 2 days of Westerosi intrigue that is tangentially related to Devils at this point, three days of making Amrelath a new body and a grand total of 1 day to talk with the Iron Born about their squid infestation.


The vast majority of our time is spent on random adventures, not fighting any threats to Planetos.


We could cut 20+ days of Viserys Actions this months without affecting the political situation of the Imperium or Planetos safety.

I disagree with Valyria, that's a strategic resource our enemies are after.

I agree with the Planar crap but as you said yourself
Putting the planes back into the bottle is definitely impossible by now.
I wish we could.

Amrelath is a commitment we have already made, one made to gain security over another strategic resource, the Shadow Tower. Which has barely moved since we neutralised the threat of it being torn apart in transit.

My comments weren't relating just to this month, and while I think we were borrowing trouble going to war with the Sultan etc. The thread has been thoroughly convinced that Djinn and Shaitan alliance are necessary to hold off the Devils and Illithid etc. If I recall correctly you made that argument.

We can't roll back our commitments, we can try not to create new and unnecessary ones but deciding here and now that dungeons are the problem when we've been holding out for IRL and IC years to do Valyria in person is more than a little unrealistic and unfair.

What exactly do we do about this? The Planes are only relevant for the XP and material resources they provide but we want and need those things to take Planetary actions efficiently and safely.
 
@Deliste, I get the feeling you are defensive about Valyria because it's something you really want to do.

Personally, I've begun to hate Valyria because the focus on it fucked us politically in the conference.
 
@Deliste, I get the feeling you are defensive about Valyria because it's something you really want to do.

Personally, I've begun to hate Valyria because the focus on it fucked us politically in the conference.

I called that out specifically as one of the reasons.

when we've been holding out for IRL and IC years to do Valyria in person is more than a little unrealistic and unfair.

So you can count yourself correct, but it's also one of the actions most consistently postponed for Planar excursions and everything else.

Caught up in the conversation Duesal's quote came from in May of last year Goldfish was pushing to stop chasing every other hook and knuckle down to do Valyria (he also wanted to go off plane for a few years, let's ignore that). That wasn't the first time such a discussion was had, it never happened.

In that context I can't see Valyria as the problem of the situation so much as a victim.
 
The planar stuff is actually sort of fun for me, but I get Azel's point about it taking a lot of focus of the quest. It also impacts other parts of the quest's internal logic.
Take the Prison for instance. It was fun to read the combat and the world building was excellent, but look at how much sheer wealth we got from it? How can we logically justify spending more time on Planetos getting our Imperial ducks in a row when with a few IC days of pure murder-hobo we get enough money to float our whole economy for months (editors note: this timeframe is a guess, but you get the point).
With planar enemies essentially being our Scrooge McDuck money pit, it incentivizes Viserys heavily to focus on adventuring, so he can bankroll all the conquering he plans on doing between adventures, and all the revolutionary and expensive social programs, and outfitting a figurative legion of spec ops monster fighters with kingdoms worth of riches in magical gear, and outfitting literal legions of people/smaller monster fighters with a town's worth of riches in gear each, and the ruinously expensive infrastructure projects, and...
You get the idea.
It just doesn't make sense for Viserys to spend the majority of his time not adventuring, when adventuring is essentially what pays the bills.

EDIT: Hell, our whole monetary system is based around funds from loot we got from like three hours IC work being literal caravan raiders, and our money is tied directly to the planar economy and our participation in the war against the Brazen Throne.
 
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The planar stuff is actually sort of fun for me, but I get Azel's point about it taking a lot of focus of the quest. It also impacts other parts of the quest's internal logic.
Take the Prison for instance. It was fun to read the combat and the world building was excellent, but look at how much sheer wealth we got from it? How can we logically justify spending more time on Planetos getting our Imperial ducks in a row when with a few IC days of pure murder-hobo we get enough money to float our whole economy for months (editors note: this timeframe is a guess, but you get the point).
With planar enemies essentially being our Scrooge McDuck money pit, it incentivizes Viserys heavily to focus on adventuring, so he can bankroll all the conquering he plans on doing between adventures, and all the revolutionary and expensive social programs, and outfitting a figurative legion of spec ops monster fighters with kingdoms worth of riches in magical gear, and out fitting literal legions of people/smaller monster fighters with a town's worth of riches in gear each, and the ruinously expensive infrastructure projects, and...
You get the idea.
It just doesn't make sense for Viserys to spend the majority of his time not adventuring, when adventuring is essentially what pays the bills.

EDIT: Hell, our whole monetary system is based around funds from loot we got from like three hours IC work being literal caravan raiders, and our money is tied directly to the planar economy and our participation in the war against the Brazen Throne.
While somewhat in agreement, I have to say, that I do not find anything wrong with this.

As much some people would like to forget that fact, this is a DnD crossover as well.

Planes, and empires on them, are very much an important part of the setting too.

It is logical for these empires to have this wealth.
It is reasonable for them to have it, even.

And in some way, that does devalue the Planetos, yes.
Yet, I see that as a good thing, as it shows just how different Planes are from Planetos, how much more powerful these factions than anything we can make at the moment.

They have been hoarding that wealth for millennia, after all.

That takes away some focus from Planetos, but I simply don't see it being a DnD crossover with Planes not taking such an important role, as we aren't just a random (high-level) adventurer, but a fuckmothering ruler, and we have to deal with this stuff.

If only because without us regulating stuff and dealing with Shaitan and Jinn (like this alliance we made) we'll have way more uncontrolled elements on PM.

I see planes somewhat similar to Valyria.
It's fringes are incredibly wealthy by Planetos standards.
Its depths are unimaginable.

Valyria's ruins are similar in wealth to cities of genie, but like we aren't going against Sultan of Brass himself, so are we not going into Valyria's depths yet, as risk/reward aren't equalised anywhere near yet.
 
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Dunno. To me it's only "just another dungeon delve" these days. The issue is, people having strong feelings about particular dungeon delves is what got us here. It's a self-perpetuing problem.
The major, pressing ones eventually run out.

Currently, I see Valyria as the most pressing one, because we've been aiming for that since virtually the beginning of the quest.

Otherwise, there's dealing with the Drow and perhaps going with Relath to the PoW. The former can be put on a shelf safely, the latter can be delegated.

Again, the problem is thinking everyone is running at as absurd a pace as we are.

So "oh no, we've lost two days on an unforeseen obstacle!" is rightly the end of the world, as that's another two days of blistering, furious activity by our foes.

As soon as we realize that no, we can take time do to things and the world won't immediately collapse on itself, things will smooth out.

The war with the Sultan, for example. We can take literally decades to deal with it, but people are used to solving gigantic problems in days.

I myself am guilty of this. When we agreed with the plan to sacrifice the living brass, in my head I was desperately trying to fit "build a planar-superpower tier fortress and army while handling everything on our plate", when in reality, it's more like "take potshots for the next decade until you can deal with that".
 
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I realize why I suddenly came to the conclusion of "slow down everything": as long as we have the option to take actions taht are a handful of days long, especially for all our major companions and minions, we will feel obligated to minmax our time to the maximum possible extent.

If we could assign people one long project and then occasionally pick them up when we need them for a big fight, things would probably flow much more smoothly.

The benefits are many: turn plans become considerably easier, the IC time progression advances at a rate that's much more viable to actually see benefit from our many, many long-term projects, we can realistically annex and review each of our conquest, etc.

Instead of piece-meal actions, we should assign longterm "jobs" to people. Their time is efficiently utilized without needing micromanagement.
 
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The planar stuff is actually sort of fun for me, but I get Azel's point about it taking a lot of focus of the quest. It also impacts other parts of the quest's internal logic.
Take the Prison for instance. It was fun to read the combat and the world building was excellent, but look at how much sheer wealth we got from it? How can we logically justify spending more time on Planetos getting our Imperial ducks in a row when with a few IC days of pure murder-hobo we get enough money to float our whole economy for months (editors note: this timeframe is a guess, but you get the point).
With planar enemies essentially being our Scrooge McDuck money pit, it incentivizes Viserys heavily to focus on adventuring, so he can bankroll all the conquering he plans on doing between adventures, and all the revolutionary and expensive social programs, and outfitting a figurative legion of spec ops monster fighters with kingdoms worth of riches in magical gear, and out fitting literal legions of people/smaller monster fighters with a town's worth of riches in gear each, and the ruinously expensive infrastructure projects, and...
You get the idea.
It just doesn't make sense for Viserys to spend the majority of his time not adventuring, when adventuring is essentially what pays the bills.

EDIT: Hell, our whole monetary system is based around funds from loot we got from like three hours IC work being literal caravan raiders, and our money is tied directly to the planar economy and our participation in the war against the Brazen Throne.

Like I said earlier, when DP made it IC knowledge and an OOC requirement to obtain certain things off plane exclusively, cheaper and easier it would make a bad King not to do that, this started with the portal and the Planetos side of the quest started dying a slow death.

The major, pressing ones eventually run out.

Currently, I see Valyria as the most pressing one, because we've been aiming for that since virtually the beginning of the quest.

Otherwise, there's dealing with the Drow and perhaps going with Relath to the PoW. The former can be put on a shelf safely, the latter can be delegated.

Again, the problem is thinking everyone is running at as absurd a pace as we are.

So "oh no, we've lost two days on an unforeseen obstacle!" is rightly the end of the world, as that's another two days of blistering, furious activity by our foes.

As soon as we realize that no, we can take time do to things and the world won't immediately collapse on itself, things will smooth out.

The war with the Sultan, for example. We can take literally decades to deal with it, but people are used to solving gigantic problems in days.

I myself am guilty of this. When we agreed with the plan to sacrifice the living brass, in my head I was desperately trying to fit "build a planar-superpower tier fortress and army while handling everything on our plate", when in reality, it's more like "take potshots for the next decade until you can deal with that".

They are operating at that pace though, Qohor only didn't explode due to luck, Tyrosh was on it's way too.

The Sultan is pretty much the only one that isn't that time sensitive, unsurprisingly it's the one Off-Plane and frustratingly it's the one that's been most focused on because of the scale of the rewards.
 
[X] Goldfish

The only vaguely political actions we are doing this month are 2 days for Grafton and 1 day for the Iron Isles. Everything else is adventuring.
Assassinating the Bey is very much a political action.
The deciding point to shove it in this month and no later was not his loot, or the desire for his death.
It was showing off to the Shaitan.
This is clearly not a dungeon run or regular adventure, as you may see by the fact that we just spend 3 days gathering information, rather than shooting off some divinations and going in.

As for the other perspectives, can't say I'm much of a fan.
It's not that I don't want more interludes, those are great, I don't want us players have direct control of the other PCs. I like them doing things their own way, even doing things that are inconvenient to us.
I don't want to see them mindcontrolled by the voices in Viserys had, but rather stay distinct in action and intent.
 
They are operating at that pace though, Qohor only didn't explode due to luck, Tyrosh was on it's way too.
See, it seems that way. That the world is at a constant state of about to explode.

But the world won't stop spinning if we aren't there to turn the wheel. Case in point, Qohor: we didn't do a thing, it didn't explode.

Slaver's Bay: we (mostly) didn't do a thing, and it also didn't explode.

Everywhere there are challenges, there are heroes to answer them, so to speak. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail.

We are sort of trying to do an absolutely perfect run, and we are burning out due that. In a way, it's a realistic outcome.

We have good armies, we have competent personal, we have even multiple godly allies. We even have regular divinations. If there's something that direly needs our attention, we will know about it, one way or another.
 
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[X] Goldfish
I'm having a fine time with things as they are now, over all. I would enjoy being able to devote more time to the Planetos side of the quest, but not being able to for justifiable reasons is largely acceptable
Assassinating the Bey is very much a political action.
The deciding point to shove it in this month and no later was not his loot, or the desire for his death.
It was showing off to the Shaitan.
This is clearly not a dungeon run or regular adventure, as you may see by the fact that we just spend 3 days gathering information, rather than shooting off some divinations and going in.
Agreed that it's a political action, but it's not one connected to the setting so I doubt that it scratches that particular itch for the people who are speaking up about that issue.
@TotallyNotEvil what do you envision as a 'slower pace'? What changes to how things currently operate are you suggesting?
 
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Ah, yes. That focus some people have on Planetos. Can't say I feel the same.

Maybe because I'm not a D&D veteran, so the Planes are new to me. But I think DP's interpretation of them would be anyway.
I actually find them as interesting as Planetos, or more so. And generally less unplesant, Westeros and most of Essos really are shitholes even long before the fiends and Deep Ones came back.

So I don't see any reason to focus on Planetos over other places, besides the obvious one that we have already made a kingdom on that dump, so we have to care about that of course.
 
See, it seems that way. That the world is at a constant state of about to explode.

But the world won't stop spinning if we aren't there to turn the wheel. Case in point, Qohor: we didn't do a thing, it didn't explode.

Slaver's Bay: we (mostly) didn't do a thing, and it also didn't explode.

Everywhere there are challenges, there are heroes to answer them, so to speak. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail.

We are sort of trying to do an absolutely perfect run, and we are burning out due that. In a way, it's a realistic outcome.

We have good armies, we have competent personal, we have even multiple godly allies. We even have regular divinations. If there's something that direly needs our attention, we will know about it, one way or another.

Nobody is saving the Claw or the Iron Islands, and the rest of Westeros that isn't becoming a shithole is being saved by our enemies, empowering them literally and politically. Still a loss for us.

As for the bemusement some have about the Planetos focus, why even bother playing as Viserys Targaryen?

He certainly cares about Planetos and Westeros, DP has made that a clear character defining trait.
 
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Otherwise, there's dealing with the Drow and perhaps going with Relath to the PoW. The former can be put on a shelf safely, the latter can be delegated.
The Drow are a non-issue that we can ignore indefinitely and I would be very happy if we can do the same with the PoW.
Assassinating the Bey is very much a political action.
The deciding point to shove it in this month and no later was not his loot, or the desire for his death.
It was showing off to the Shaitan.
This is clearly not a dungeon run or regular adventure, as you may see by the fact that we just spend 3 days gathering information, rather than shooting off some divinations and going in.
I strongly disagree here. To me, a true political action must answer yes to this question: "Does the outcome of this action meaningfully impact the political situation of Viserys Targaryen?"

And the answer here is a flat no.

We already are allied with the Shaitan. We are not planting our own pawn in the Beys place. We are not protecting ourselves from the Bey plotting against us or similar.

Once this action is done, we get +10 Friendship Points with the Shaitan and replace one set-piece with a slightly differently shapes one.

So the actions feels entirely meaningless.
Ah, yes. That focus some people have on Planetos. Can't say I feel the same.

Maybe because I'm not a D&D veteran, so the Planes are new to me. But I think DP's interpretation of them would be anyway.
I actually find them as interesting as Planetos, or more so. And generally less unplesant, Westeros and most of Essos really are shitholes even long before the fiends and Deep Ones came back.

So I don't see any reason to focus on Planetos over other places, besides the obvious one that we have already made a kingdom on that dump, so we have to care about that of course.
-- The following part became rather ranty and I apologize in advance to anyone who may or may not be offended, especially to DP, but this kept bugging me for weeks if not months and it needed to get out. --

See, you are kinda ignoring that it's also a ASOIAF crossover and that part feels sorely neglected for the last months, if not longer. The driving force behind nearly everything happening on Planetos are either Devils, Illithid or some other random outsider threat. The only moments were this isn't the case is when we do stuff involving the Old Gods and even that one is not really uniquely ASOIAF. Most of our actions on Planetos could just be copy-pasted over to a generic D&D world.

Take for example Sothoryos. It's a canon name, but otherwise it might as well be any other random jungle continent form any random setting. Which isn't so much DPs fault as the issue of the place being barely fleshed out in canon. But as we keep threading far away from canon most of the time, this won't really change. And stuff in Westeros itself, where canon is strongest? It always involves Devils these days. Even the wildfire thing devolved into thumping random devils. Corbray and Grafton? Devils. Danar and Alyssa? Random celestial, made out of spare parts from Baelor the Blessed, true, but ultimately still a random celestial.

It was really fun to dig into the Corbray and Grafton situation OOCly, but ICly, it's just another Devil plot to deal with. The whole matter still was great fun, because it's interconnected with the setting and had the context necessary to feel alive, but stuff like the Bey are self-contained dungeon runs. Intrigue focused maybe, but there is little functional difference between a random Shadowrun job and a random D&D dungeon crawl. They are self-contained tasks which are using a limited amount of set-pieces, while the Grafton matter happened within the continuity of the Vale, where we know many more set-pieces and can easily dig into a wiki to discover more.

Which is why I'm decidedly meh on Valyria. It will be a dungeon crawl with some namedropping and a bit of ASOIAF flavored loot and lore, but ultimately, it's a self-contained thing with a clear start and end.

But the appeal of ASOIAF is this vast, interconnected world that is living, breathing and interacting with itself even outside the current viewpoint. And all those dungeon pokings and the planar stuff have really begun to tear that appeal down for me as they simply can't deliver on this. People can deliver on this. Repeated interactions with those people can deliver on this.

But just look at our interactions with Myr and Sarnor. We pop in, throw down demands, offers and asking for fealty, then pop back out and pay it no mind for months. Little changes in between and Lady Phassen and Sarnor-Dude-Who-Isn't-Even-Relevant-Enough-To-Remember-His-Name are basically faces of entire regions. Lys was fun because we dug deep enough to find out about the local dynamics and could meaningful interact with them, but Myr was already much flatter and Sarnor basically card-board. That our shenanigans in Lys got zero true focus lately, except for a minor status-report, is also a big let-down for me, as a lot of time and effort went into planning that particular thing. But we never got beyond implementing Phase 1, never had to implement any of the contingencies, run damage control or try to manipulate other people to preserve our plan.

So... yeah... Not much appeal to me right now in even doing intrigue. Or politics. These actions are blips that feel disjointed, rushed and weird most of the time, as they get so little screen-time and so few characters and situations to work with that they became meaningless. Doubly so with the walk-over in Sarnor and the, frankly, entirely nonsensical thing with the loyalist Salamanders. But look at the original Salamander diplomacy and notice one thing: 2 chapters of talking, then we are back on track for 10+ chapters of murdering some people who don't matter to the narrative beyond their role as targets.

Can we... stop doing combat? And have all our plots devolve into "kill this Outsider to win"?
Because that is what is feels like most of the time these days. Either that or complete walk-overs.
 
Can we... stop doing combat? And have all our plots devolve into "kill this Outsider to win"?
Because that is what is feels like most of the time these days. Either that or complete walk-overs.
But there we hit the basic issue that the people on Planetos can't really stand up to us in either combat or social.

How do you want to make these intrigues matter when " just conquer it" is always a viable option?
Abd the only thingthat could meaningfully hinder that option is yet another Outsider?
 
OK so I'm seeing a lot of concerns about characters losing their individuality if you guys get a shot at controlling them and that is something I as the GM can fix, unlike systemic focus problems from the world being too wide and feeling shallow in places which will take a lot of thought.

Simply put I intend to put more of a personal spin on your votes and I'm going to restrain write ins somewhat. Your 'internal' control of say Maelor will be far looser than of Viserys or at least that's the theory. I did say I'd do a trial run and so I will.
 
I want to highlight an issue I think is relevant here. You have an issue with Myr and Sarnor being flat and us meeting no real resistance when we pop in and basically informed them they work for us now, but in universe, what else would logically happen? Say Lady Phassen was super against working with us for some reason, what would she have done? What could she have done? Viserys has social scores so absurd that as someone in the Planetos setting you basically can't win an argument against him. if you somehow manage it by being powerful enough to match his ridiculous social scores and buffs, which the thread consistently freaks out about because they've seen what we had to do to get that power and can't square someone else having it without working as hard as we have (which is reasonable in my opinion) , all you've really done is sign your own death warrant. To be someone we have to scheme against you have to be able to stand up to us in both social and physical combat, and the only people who can do that without a very reasonable cry of 'how?' from the player base are either extra-planar or too powerful for us to fight at the moment.
 
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But there we hit the basic issue that the people on Planetos can't really stand up to us in either combat or social.

How do you want to make these intrigues matter when " just conquer it" is always a viable option?
Abd the only thingthat could meaningfully hinder that option is yet another Outsider?
We can't "just conquer it". That's something I've kept telling people for ages and we nearly got ourselves into a right and proper mess by nearly forgetting that in Sarnor. What we did for Tyrosh should realistically be necessary for every other conquest and we should need to actually prepare a occupation regime well ahead of time. But with how little focus these matters get these days, that fell completely by the way-side.

The core of the issue is that not every villain or challenge has to be mechanical. But we didn't have any kind of narrative villain since our original visit to Volantis with the Zherys vs. Benerro vs. The Government plot-line.

Something very relevant that might help others to understand what I mean:
 
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