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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Azel said:
Give me a quick list of the fetch quests you consider urgent. Just to illustrate a point.
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A) Tiamat goonies and her fortress in shadow plane.

B) Red Dragon Orb.

That's it.
These two things done?
I might as well get the fuck outta this thread, as I know that after that, things will only go downwards for me, what with so many people wanting to deal with Westeros.

Neither can be delegated either.
So yes, we have done almost all fetch-quests around.
 
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egoo said:
A) Tiamat goonies and her fortress in shadow plane.

B) Red Dragon Orb.

That's it.
These two things done?
I can get the fuck outta this thread, as I know that after that, things will only go downwards for me, what with so many people wanting to deal with Westeros.

Neither can be delegated either.
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I distinctly recall that list being a ehole lot longer and not because we had addressed all of it.

Though why do you feel that you won't have a reason to stay after those two?
 
Gah! Finally done with the backreads!

Can chime in much, but I love the steamrolling combat and gradual empire building. Makes the quest feel more organic than mechanics driven. But of course, that's just my opinion.
 
Azel said:
I distinctly recall that list being a ehole lot longer and not because we had addressed all of it.
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We've done sarnori people.
We have done sothoryos.
We have done Wyldfire.
We have dealt a blow to Fater's chosen.
We have left Quart on a backburner for it is unlikely to explode anymore :V
We are doing Valyria is this turn.
We are killing Bey right now.

I think this is, what, 3-5 main points from the last time a comprehensive list was made, done?
Azel said:
Though why do you feel that you won't have a reason to stay after those two?
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It isn't that I will leave after them, unless there is a mass exodus of players from quest.

I'm...
Just not interested in dealing with Westeros. At all.

I can understand, and to a point relate, with people who don't like adventuring and going off-plane in favour of dealing with the other side of crossover, but that is just the question of taste, I suppose.

And these 2 things...
I think Dragon Orb is self-evident - I'm rather paranoid about it.

And Tiamat...
Well, my whole pet peeve is things being inefficient - be it not looting stuff to the bedrock, or letting enemies gather power.

So, I'm rather bummed about her being left alone for so long, getting a huge amount of influence and followers and dragons.

These things done, I won't have things to worry myself about and wanting to stay here for pushing to completion.
Enter, Westeros. Boredom and salt.

Eh, we'll see.
I have no doubts in DP's ability to make it interesting, I'm just not interested in that shit-hole of a continent in general.

The way I see it, letting it be swallowed by Others, dropping a few meteors on it, and then rebuilding from the ground up, would have been more effective of an approach :/
 
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I'd like to voice my firm approval for the delegation of the endless adventuring so politics and intrigue can once again feel engaging. A lot of people like that shit and want to see it personally rather than through Interludes so they demand that Viserys go see it personally, and so things have just gotten too strained for DP to deliver his consistent level of quality. The POV switch solves so many issues, and I genuinely don't understand the fanatical urge to smother it in the crib.
 
LonelyWolf999 said:
I'd like to voice my firm approval for the delegation of the endless adventuring so politics and intrigue can once again feel engaging. A lot of people like that shit and want to see it personally rather than through Interludes so they demand that Viserys go see it personally, and so things have just gotten too strained for DP to deliver his consistent level of quality. The POV switch solves so many issues, and I genuinely don't understand the fanatical urge to smother it in the crib.
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Well, speaking from absolutely personal feelings on the matter, I will have a very hard time relating to any chapter (with voting) not from Viserys' point of view.

Throughout this quest we have been playing as Viserys.
We have been voting as Viserys.
Not a single time had there been a choice of this sort to be made for other members of the party.

It will feel really weird to start doing such things several thousand chapters in quest.

Way weirder than having DP add "the vote that won" before new chapters, yes.

I don't mind there being less fetch-quests involved, heck, DP already promised to push quest towards politics and intrigue from now on!

But I'd rather keep other party members in DP's hands, separate entities not under any control from players.
 
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Sqweaktoy said:
Agreed that it's a political action, but it's not one connected to the setting so I doubt that it scratches that particular itch for the people who are speaking up about that issue.
@TotallyNotEvil what do you envision as a 'slower pace'? What changes to how things currently operate are you suggesting?
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Instead of, say, "Invade Tyrosh: 1-2 days", and half a dozen sorted actions to actually make it stick, you'd get "Invade and Annex Tyrosh: One month", which would include all of things such as Drums in the Deep, fisca hunts, infrastructure needs, etc.

Have people on a standard job: Hunting cultists, enforcing the law, hunting corruption, research one particular big thing, training up troops, investigating something, collecting rumors.

Instead of piecemeal actions which require day-to-day management on our part, and effectively mean hopping around projects like the energizer bunny, you'd subconsciously instill "no, we have time for that, this other thing still isn't even done".

In a way, people feel the need to micromanage every day of the month for every character on our side because that's an option we have. It feels like not doing so is a tremendous waste.

Yet, as we've seen, the world is (understandably) slow to change. We've been playing at so frenetic a pace that we've left it in the dust.

We can have people still be fully productive by delegating in a broader sense, instead of choosing specific tasks, which we can do whenever there's a need to, and therefore allowing for a much simplified schedule, the faster passing of time and for actions that rightfully should take time to be done in a reasonable pace.
 
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TotallyNotEvil said:
Instead of, say, "Invade Tyrosh: 1-2 days", and half a dozen sorted actions to actually make it stick, you'd get "Invade and Annex Tyrosh: One month", which would include all of things such as Drums in the Deep, fisca hunts, infrastructure needs, etc.

Have people on a standard job: Hunting cultists, enforcing the law, hunting corruption, research one particular big thing, training up troops, investigating something, collecting rumors.

Instead of piecemeal actions which require day-to-day management on our part, and effectively mean hopping around projects like the energizer bunny, you'd subconsciously instill "no, we have time for that, this other thing still isn't even done".
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I would like to do something like this when we invade Lys and take control of its surrounding territories. Not only could we focus more heavily on that, but also on the geopolitical repercussions of us taking another Free City. I like doing extraplanar stuff, and I love stomping monsters and getting loot, but I wouldn't mind setting all of that aside for a bit to take care of pressing Planetosi business.
 
I think that Myr and Lys would be an excellent time to focus more on Planetos for awhile. As we'll be annexing those two cities pretty much concurrently I believe. So narratively it would make sense for Viserys to leave the lion's share of his own time managing that. With possibly, Malarys and Garin as his support, with the other companions delegated to other important tasks.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
Instead of, say, "Invade Tyrosh: 1-2 days", and half a dozen sorted actions to actually make it stick, you'd get "Invade and Annex Tyrosh: One month", which would include all of things such as Drums in the Deep, fisca hunts, infrastructure needs, etc.

Have people on a standard job: Hunting cultists, enforcing the law, hunting corruption, research one particular big thing, training up troops, investigating something, collecting rumors.

Instead of piecemeal actions which require day-to-day management on our part, and effectively mean hopping around projects like the energizer bunny, you'd subconsciously instill "no, we have time for that, this other thing still isn't even done".

In a way, people feel the need to micromanage every day of the month for every character on our side because that's an option we have. It feels like not doing so is a tremendous waste.

Yet, as we've seen, the world is (understandably) slow to change. We've been playing at so frenetic a pace that we've left it in the dust.

We can have people still be fully productive by delegating in a broader sense, instead of choosing specific tasks, which we can do whenever there's a need to, and therefore allowing for a much simplified schedule, the faster passing of time and for actions that rightfully should take time to be done in a reasonable pace.
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Hm... I think you are on to something there. Two of my pet issues lately are what I dubbed Lightning Actions like 2 days of PoF or 3 days of teaching, and the other being the odd dissonance of delegation. On the one hand, we can have Alinor and the RSH do massive economic actions, on the other we need PC time to have the Legion enforce martial law in the Disputed Lands. That's... weird.

Same with implementing our new currency. I'm not seeing what Viserys still needs to do there. The legal framework exists, the currency is backed, we got support from other economies and the coin press is arriving at the end of the month.

What's left is minting them and distribution, but Viserys won't stand at a corner and exchange Gold for Imperial Marks. That's what our government and the IB are for.


But how do you want to address smaller combat actions? Because this system would almost require perspective shifts or produce entire months of nothing but government work for Viserys.
 
Azel said:
Hm... I think you are on to something there. Two of my pet issues lately are what I dubbed Lightning Actions like 2 days of PoF or 3 days of teaching, and the other being the odd dissonance of delegation. On the one hand, we can have Alinor and the RSH do massive economic actions, on the other we need PC time to have the Legion enforce martial law in the Disputed Lands. That's... weird.

Same with implementing our new currency. I'm not seeing what Viserys still needs to do there. The legal framework exists, the currency is backed, we got support from other economies and the coin press is arriving at the end of the month.

What's left is minting them and distribution, but Viserys won't stand at a corner and exchange Gold for Imperial Marks. That's what our government and the IB are for.


But how do you want to address smaller combat actions? Because this system would almost require perspective shifts or produce entire months of nothing but government work for Viserys.
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I would argue in favor of "Lightning actions" whereas any adventuring is concerned.
It is just unreasonable to expect a level 16 sorcerer (and a supporting party) to take any more than a few days to either perform an attack on enemy Stronghold, or take a delve in magical ruins.

Everything else is true enough.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind getting on a slower schedule, so long as we can still leave it for a day or two at any moment to deal with whatever particular nasty appears in our sight.

Letting enemies gather power, again.
This I just cannot stand :/
 
Azel said:
or produce entire months of nothing but government work for Viserys.
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Keep in mind that I love the combat.

And I wouldn't mind going three months with nothing but the kind that DP handles his own these days.

But I realize that's not necessarily the case for everyone, but as I see it, mini murderfests can happen in-between big actions without much issue. Hell, maybe I'm entirely wrong about myself.

By default, we'd just be more through with what we do. Collect information, analyze consequences and generally line up our ducks in a neat little row.

Then we have a big murder-fair over a couple days of updates. Everything should already be handled, so instead of "what now?" And "how do you address this unforeseen problem?" We just follow the Plan.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
Then we have a big murder-fair over a couple days of updates. Everything should already be handled, so instead of "what now?" And "how do you address this unforeseen problem?" We just follow the Plan.
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This part in particular is intrinsically appealing to me.


Well, normally I would now either go off and try to fudge something together based on these raw design thoughts or, alternatively, gather a group of people interested in this and try to fudge up something together in a PM. But I got some flak for doing these things lately, so...

Do we want to keep this discussing this here in general or should I do my thingy and present a draft after a few days of work?
 
As a side note, if we rehaul actions, we really need to incorporate the government and economy in this, both as a source of work (by delegation) and as a drain (as we need to throw PC time at some problems).
 
egoo said:
Letting enemies gather power, again.
This I just cannot stand :/
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This is part of the problem.

You seem to think our enemies are doing Training From Hell every day, all day. That every moment we aren't adventuring and conquering and leveling up is wasted. That they are going to suddenly gain Cosmic Power and roll by to stomp us.
 
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Deliste said:
@DragonParadox is the above an accurate to semi-accurate reflection of Viserys' belief in his responsibilities?

I believe we're in character.
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The fact is, we are sort of glossing over, or doing the bare minimum to keep things together through force of personality and/or fear of our power.

I'm not arguing that our enemies aren't super dedicated.

I'm arguing that they, too, need to take long, troublesome actions. That they too need to consolidate, to administer, to plan, to gather information, to fight off minor and major threats of their own.

I'm arguing that "doing our best" involves getting to, say, know the major nobles of Tyrosh.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
This is part of the problem.

You seem to think our enemies are doing Training From Hell every day, all day. That every moment we aren't adventuring and conquering and leveling up is wasted. That they are going to suddenly gain Cosmic Power and roll by to stomp us.
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Winter is coming.
Illithids are gaining influence at restoring their ancient outposts.
Tiamat is gaining influence like crazy.
Demons/devils/daemons are literally infinite in numbers.

So, only things that are unlikely to do that are Fey and Efreet.
Yeah, nice.

@everyone, can you please give this at least a month?
I want to see how DP is going to push politics and intrigue to forestage first, like he promised yesterday.

If nothing changes substantially, I will withdraw my agruments about this whole thing and i'll go with the flow, but for now, I think you are all going off prematurely on this :/

@Azel, pretty please?
I really like how quest was played until this point, and would rather not get any changes untill at the very least Lys/Myr milestone, preferably - a few months after them.
 
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egoo said:
Winter is coming.
Illithids are gaining influence at restoring their ancient outposts.
Tiamat is gaining influence like crazy.
Demons/devils/daemons are literally infinite in numbers.
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And even these don't move with the speed of lightning.

You might notice we aren't fighting off a ton of minor incursions every month.

Because these people need to stop, to plan, to amass resources.

And we can and should and need to do that too. But we are not to accomplish anywhere near as much of that if we don't slow the fuck down, stop hopping from place to place and actually get to it.

What I propose is to still have people working a lot, but instead of micromanaging them, we give them a broad goal as default and occasionally direct things if we need a specific task done asap.

We need to solidify.
 
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Otherwise, we aren't any different from a random dragon that collects tributes and efforces some rules of his own through his army of servants.

We need to actually rule these places we own, and plan on owning.

We need time to pull off things like devil-blood reactor, like flying ships, like massed magical gear, like ariborne cavalry.

Hell, the option for Dany to teach clerics of Draconic Glory has been there for how long?

I'm arguing that we do have time to do things properly.
 
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TotallyNotEvil said:
Because these people need to stop, to plan, to amass resources
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And we are between "severely" and "infinitely" less resourceful than most of them are.

Please, lets first consolidate at least some power, before going all "slow and steady wins the race".
With lightning-quick actions, yes.

There are still things that can and should be murderblendered and/or subjugated, which while aren't time-critical, would still be efficient to do in current system.

That chimera-making magister.
Getting wildlings from beyond the wall and/or dealing with local winter-y problems.
Looking at undead hordes in Dorthraki sea.
Sending someone to PoW expedition.
Etc etc.

And I have already given descriptions of the stuff I consider actually urgent.

One of the main reasons for our current success is constant lightning-quick operations that hit our enemies where it hurts.
Let's not forego them while they still have valid targets, mmkay?
 
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But my point is precisely that we don't need to be less efficient if we take our time to do things properly, as long as we set things up right.

As long as we realize we can move at a saner pace and get as good, or better, results, then we will solve many if not most of our meta problems.
 
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