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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Paradosi said:
While Viserys being who he is means whatever deity is gonna expect more outta him, that goes both ways. Just as with the Old Gods, Yss or the Merling King, the more you put in, the more you get out of it.
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What could we "get out of it" other than our stated goals? They won't decrease their demands from a lasting, ongoing agreement in all likelihood, so we have to up our demands to match the terms? Get them to pledge assistance against the Lannisters in more tangible ways than not providing reliable divination?

In all likelihood quibbling over how that assistance is provided has not gone well for us in the past, as in we have basically been dissuaded from forcing expectations on such deities. They provide assistance in the way they please, and if we don't like it, we don't take the deal.

That's how it's been.
 
DragonParadox said:
"Looking for a share," he replies lowering his voice to just above a whisper, showing some skill in subterfuge, for all the good that does him talking to the only dragon in the stands. "I've got news of a treasure ship sailing straight from Dis on the Grand Vizier's own business. You want the Brass Bastard to curse your name there's no better way to do it than taking that, and I reckon with a dragon on our side me and lads can take it. Call it an even split of everything, slaves and treasures, the ship if we can take it whole, and we'll lead you right to it."
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Obviously we are going to have to renegotiate so that all slaves are freed, but aside from that this seems a good deal.
Goldfish said:
Damn, that's tempting, but so is that military convoy carrying supplies to the Efreeti who are fighting the Shaitain. That could get us serious credit with them.
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We have 2 red dragons, sure one of them is undead at the moment, but 2 red dragons still mean we can easily hit 2 targets, with the companions we can probably even take 3, considering the Azer is just expecting to get an adult red dragon not a Sorcerer of our level, he probably only need us to take the treasure ship, Amrelath and half of our companions could probably take the Military convoy that's attacking the Shaitan, and then we could send Baella and 2-3 companions to hunt Whalers.
TalonofAnathrax said:
[X] Goldfish

We can take items, lore, prisoners and some of the gold. He can take the slaves and some gold. Problem solved.
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That aren't how we roll, if we raid somewhere with slaves the slaves are getting freed, otherwise our sister will be unhappy with us, as will our future wife though to a lesser degree.
Goldfish said:
You know there's no way we'll be able to leave slaves in bondage, not with Dany and Waymar along with us. Coming from Dis, the ship probably doesn't have many slaves, though. It's more likely souls and raw materials.
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Imprisoned souls are just slaves who lack bodies.
 
What about taking back Dragonstone ? Sure it would initiate hostilities but many of our people wait for us there and we could use this opportunity to destroy Lannister forces.
 
Lannisters get their divination from elemental's. As per... whats her names class. She pulls spells from elemental creatures that her familiar bargained with.

If we could track the sucker down and lean on the shaitan we could pull the rug out from under them quite easily.

Edit:
I do not recall if Azer generally like slavery, he could just as easily be bargaining with us because we are an evil red dragon and he does not want us to eat them. Or just use them for regular slave stuff I guess.

Edit: Checked, Azer do not like being slaves, I imagine they disapprove of the practice.
 
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zxzx24 said:
Lannisters get their divination from elemental's. As per... whats her names class. She pulls spells from elemental creatures that her familiar bargained with.

If we could track the sucker down and lean on the shaitan we could pull the rug out from under them quite easily.
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That still hinges on the assumption that they don't have more people capable of divination, which I consider highly unlikely.

Besides, we don't know IC what class Lanna has.
 
Loinvoyant said:
What about taking back Dragonstone ? Sure it would initiate hostilities but many of our people wait for us there and we could use this opportunity to destroy Lannister forces.
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Feudal politics is 9 tenths symbolism. Taking Dragonstone is the equivalent to going "you have no power here" to the Lannister-Baratheons, who have to respond by calling the banners. It isn't optional for them, they have to do it.
 
Deliste said:
Then everyone who would rather be alive is a slave and we should raid the afterlives, all of them.
Just because it's paradise doesn't mean you want to be there.
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Not actively helping souls leave isn't the same as forcing them to stay, if the ones in charge are preventing resurrection spells from working it's slavery, if they are just not resurrecting people themselves, then that's simply the equivalent of not paying for your citizens to immigrate away.

It's the difference between the government not paying for a boat ticket, if you want to emigrate from an island nation, and the government stationing armed patrol boats to prevent you from leaving, them not giving you a ticket is not making you a slave or Serf, them stationing armed patrol boats is, and of course if they put you in chains and force you to work for them, then that's not just Serfdom but slavery.

Which mean the soul trade is just selling body-less slaves, but afterlives aren't inherently slavery, although all the Fiendish afterlives and quite a few others, are the afterlife equivalent of slaver states.
 
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Look, if this argument leads to us "liberating" Celestia, I'm game, but otherwise it deserves to die in a fire.

The amount of dogmatic stupidity inherent to it is galling.
 
Azel said:
That still hinges on the assumption that they don't have more people capable of divination, which I consider highly unlikely.

Besides, we don't know IC what class Lanna has.
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We could also ask Yss, (or danny in the dream realm) to spy on their divination's for us. Divining what someone else divined is silly but very doable.

Hell, Yss might even be willing to risk another beings wrath by blocking some divination.

Thats also just a funny mental image.

Weal or Woe: Snakes
Commune: Snakes Snakes Snakes Snakes Snakes Snakes Snakes Snakes Snakes Snakes
Divination: I have had with these motherfucking snakes on this motherfucking astral plane!

Celestia?
Horse celestia or magical afterlife celestia?
 
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tarrangar said:
Not actively helping souls leave isn't the same as forcing them to stay, if the ones in charge are preventing resurrection spells from working it's slavery, if they are just not resurrecting people themselves, then that's simply the equivalent of not paying for your citizens to immigrate away.

It's the difference between the government not paying for a boat ticket, if you want to emigrate from an island nation, and the government stationing armed patrol boats to prevent you from leaving, them not giving you a ticket is not making you a slave or Serf, them stationing armed patrol boats is, and of course if they put you in chains and force you to work for them, then that's not just Serfdom but slavery.

Which mean the soul trade is just selling body-less slaves, but afterlives aren't inherently slavery, although all the Fiendish afterlives and quite a few others, are the afterlife equivalent of slaver states.
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Not being able to leave the plane without a resurrection spell is the armed patrol boats, spirits move just fine within the borders of planes, why make borders?
Walls to keep souls in to force their ambient energy to maintain the plane, that's why.

zxzx24 said:
Lannisters get their divination from elemental's. As per... whats her names class. She pulls spells from elemental creatures that her familiar bargained with.

If we could track the sucker down and lean on the shaitan we could pull the rug out from under them quite easily.

Edit:
I do not recall if Azer generally like slavery, he could just as easily be bargaining with us because we are an evil red dragon and he does not want us to eat them. Or just use them for regular slave stuff I guess.

Edit: Checked, Azer do not like being slaves, I imagine they disapprove of the practice.
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Azel said:
That still hinges on the assumption that they don't have more people capable of divination, which I consider highly unlikely.

Besides, we don't know IC what class Lanna has.
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Her class should make it basically impossible to adulterate the results unless DP changed it, they are pretty explicitly dealing with Geniekind, not a single Genie so there's no one person or group to bribe, bluff, Diplomance or whatever.
 
Azel said:
Look, if this argument leads to us "liberating" Celestia, I'm game, but otherwise it deserves to die in a fire.

The amount of dogmatic stupidity inherent to it is galling.
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Only to Deliste's argument, my argument is that buying and trading souls, is still trading people, it's him who is taking that to mean that all afterlives is slavery.
Deliste said:
Not being able to leave the plane without a resurrection spell is the armed patrol boats, spirits move just fine within the borders of planes, why make borders?
Walls to keep souls in to force their ambient energy to maintain the plane, that's why.
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Those borders are more a natural feature of the planes, I don't think the Celestials are standing guard to keep souls in at the edge of the plane, if they try to walk out they probably get to do so, they are just still a disembodied spirit, which mean they have no body to anchor them, which mean their alignments and beliefs pulls them back.

That's why they arrive in that particular afterlife in the first place after all, and that's why if they leave they will just go back, it's a natural part of the Planes that souls are tethered to the plane, most matching their alignment and beliefs, this tether isn't a chain, it's a law of nature.

Like how gravity isn't enslaving everyone to the ground, it's just a law of nature, you are pulled downwards by gravity, so you need tools magic or natural abilities to fly, and that's just how things is, gravity isn't a tyranny, and just like that Planar tethers in your soul is a natural law, those tethers are blocked by physical bodies, and can also be blocked by other means, but they are a natural law, so unless you do something to anchor a soul, it will naturally be pulled to it's afterlife, if you break a soulgem containing a good soul, in a part of the Abyss that don't have measures to capture souls, then that soul will not manifest in the Abyss, it will be pulled to the good afterlife it's destined for.

The pull might be strongest right after you die, but it's ever present, so without an anchor, you will eventually be pulled back to your afterlife if you leave, and that is just a matter of natural law, there are lots of anchors, all living things are anchored by their body, many forms of magic can anchor a soul, and sufficiently strong emotion can serve as an anchor, but in the end you need an anchor to not be pulled to your afterlife, and that's not because of anything the rulers do, it's because that's how souls and afterlives work.
 
tarrangar said:
Only to Deliste's argument, my argument is that buying and trading souls, is still trading people, it's him who is taking that to mean that all afterlives is slavery.

Those borders are more a natural feature of the planes, I don't think the Celestials are standing guard to keep souls in at the edge of the plane, if they try to walk out they probably get to do so, they are just still a disembodied spirit, which mean they have no body to anchor them, which mean their alignments and beliefs pulls them back.

That's why they arrive in that particular afterlife in the first place after all, and that's why if they leave they will just go back, it's a natural part of the Planes that souls are tethered to the plane, most matching their alignment and beliefs, this tether isn't a chain, it's a law of nature.

Like how gravity isn't enslaving everyone to the ground, it's just a law of nature, you are pulled downwards by gravity, so you need tools magic or natural abilities to fly, and that's just how things is, gravity isn't a tyranny, and just like that Planar tethers in your soul is a natural law, those tethers are blocked by physical bodies, and can also be blocked by other means, but they are a natural law, so unless you do something to anchor a soul, it will naturally be pulled to it's afterlife, if you break a soulgem containing a good soul, in a part of the Abyss that don't have measures to capture souls, then that soul will not manifest in the Abyss, it will be pulled to the good afterlife it's destined for.

The pull might be strongest right after you die, but it's ever present, so without an anchor, you will eventually be pulled back to your afterlife if you leave, and that is just a matter of natural law, there are lots of anchors, all living things are anchored by their body, many forms of magic can anchor a soul, and sufficiently strong emotion can serve as an anchor, but in the end you need an anchor to not be pulled to your afterlife, and that's not because of anything the rulers do, it's because that's how souls and afterlives work.
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If Gravity was or was ruled by a god that gained power by things forced around it's core then certainly it's slavery, the rulers need not even mean it, actually it could be the plane itself as a non-thinking (above thinking?) entity that is enslaving souls to maintain itself. Malevolence is not a necessary factor for slavery, there doesn't need to be somebody to stop, only a situation to right. This is akin to breaking the slave trade instead of hanging slavers, after all just because something has been one way it is doesn't mean that's the way it should be.
 
Deliste said:
If Gravity was or was ruled by a god that gained power by things forced around it's core then certainly it's slavery, the rulers need not even mean it, actually it could be the plane itself as a non-thinking (above thinking?) entity that is enslaving souls to maintain itself. Malevolence is not a necessary factor for slavery, there doesn't need to be somebody to stop, only a situation to right. This is akin to breaking the slave trade instead of hanging slavers, after all just because something has been one way it is doesn't mean that's the way it should be.
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It do make it really low priority, this is a natural law, it's not all that bad by those standards, and it's not intentional slavery, just a case of natural law restricting souls, meaning it's in principle an issue, but it's on the priority list, only way after we have conquered all the Fiendish realms, and freed the souls enslaved there.

Souls being bought and sold, used for raw materials and the like however, that is a much more severe case of slavery, and is certainly a case where when we acquire said souls, we should treat them as people, not as treasure, so if the treasure ship are carrying souls, those souls should be freed just like the living slaves, though we should interview them before freeing them, seeing as some might have valuable skills, and want to work for us if we revive them, and some might be tethered to sucky afterlives such as the Fiendish one, and having already experienced their afterlife, would far prefer to remain an imprisoned soul over going back, in which case that's their choice, and we have no reason to break their prison.
 
Azel said:
@Deliste, correct me if I'm wrong, but are you still salty about the Pact Primeval? Because it sounds a lot like it.
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I think Deliste just generally dislike Outsiders, and the power they have over mortals and their souls, he's also firmly against using the Archon's to vouch for anything, because he believe it's a bad thing that people believe, that angels always speak the truth, which is of course right, but only insofar as it's bad for them to believe anyone always speak the truth, because impersonation spells are a thing.

But outside of the risk of an Archon being a fake, you can trust that if they say something, then it's the truth as far as they know, which mean they are trustworthy expert in matters of the soul, so it's not in my opinion a bad thing to have the Archon's verify, that being buried in the Flesh forge will not harm your soul.

Someone has to verify it, as our citizens don't have the knowledge skill to make an independent decision on whether it's safe, and if we got Lya to do it instead, well she's just as much an expert as them(more about souls in general, but not about souls journey to the afterlife) but she's also known to be our beloved, and we are the ones benefitting from people being buried there, so having an independent source verify it as well is a good idea, and the Archon's are perfect for that.
 
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