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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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I just see a wide road leading to the Others, and an annoyed Viserys poking monsters with a stick to get them to go vaguely in that direction to fight them with an exasperated look on his face. :D
 
Goldfish said:
@Azel I realize it probably won't change your opinion on the military's pay scale, but consider this;

The Wolf's Teeth; 1200 men for a full year at just 1000 IM.
Marco's Marksmen; 2000 men for a full year at just 1600 IM.
The Long Axes; 450 men for a full year at 2000 gold.

Even the best paid of the three, the Long Axes, with their expensive armor and impressive training, only average 4.44 IM per sellsword per year.

Your Prefecture of the Southern Stepstones spreadsheet shows the Legion, numbering 2000 men, earning 7500 IM per month. That's an average of 3.75 IM per soldier per month. It's the same with the raiding fleet, 3.75 IM per man per month, for a total of 9000 IM spread among 2400 men.

Even if the sellswords' contracts stipulates that all secondary expenses, such as supplying food, fodder, materials, etc. are paid out of our pocket, so that their entire fee goes toward their salaries, each sellsword is being paid slightly less than 10% of what a Legion soldier makes annually.

Assuming some portion of the sellswords' expected pay is expected to come from spoils or plunder, or even the significant majority of it, that's still going to average out to far less than what we're paying the Legion.

It makes no sense to be paying 16,500 IM per month in wages to our armed forces. We could halve that and still be seriously overpaying.
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If you assume 2 Copper per day to feed yourself, then the pay of for example the Wolfs Teeth would be unable to support them to eat for more then 1.5 months. If we have to supply food on top of direct pay, the costs need to go up, since we now have to add 7.2 IM per person and year just for basic food. There is also no way they can maintain or replace broken equipment with that money. And they will probably want to make an actual profit while being hired and not live a whole year off nothing but hard-tack.

These values simply hold no water and DP said multiple times that he just guessed values that seemed reasonable, but if you look at it, you will notice that their costs are off by a factor of 10 compared to established wages and costs of living in the quest.

You are fixating on a single value, which you feel is too high, but willfully ignore the other values around it that show why it makes sense that it's that high.

das_slash said:
I'm not worried about the future profits, im worried about our current treasury, we used to have a huge safety net and now is gone, the "kingly" loan from the Iron bank is now barely sufficient to keep a half strenght force for the duration of the stabilization period, never mind our plans for food and restoration.
We either need to have the new costs system kick in a few months after we get the new income system, or we need to also inflate our treasury to compensate.
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Can't speak about retroactively making that loan bigger, though you do have a point there, but with the system kicking in, we will also make more profits. The raiding alone will net us something between 1000-2000 IM profit per month (my balancing goal set by DP) and we are looking at similar increases for the SSE and an entirely new money-maker in the ACSEC, that will flush thousands into the treasury.

In regards to directly available money right after the conquest, we can seize a few magister estates, netting us easily 50,000 - 100,000 IM per estate in liquid cash and more then twice that in other forms of wealth, which we can either keep or liquidize at the Iron Bank (there's a reason I had that added to our agreement).
 
Can we afford to pay our armies that well?

If so thats fine.

We should encourage them to "improve" their equipment with the scholarium, and to spend in the deep.

Naturally.
 
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zxzx24 said:
Can we afford to pay our armies that well?

If so thats fine.

We should encourage them to "improve" their equipment with the scholarium, and to spend in the deep.

Naturally.
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We aren't paying them "that well". We are paying them decently.

Goldfish is using outdated figures and failing to distinguish between wages and actual costs, with my sheets using the latter, not the former.

And the core issue for them remains the devaluing of our treasury that results from adjusting the costs and income to sane values. The expenses are covered, but our cash-flow is no longer a few hundred IM, which is laughable little compared to the size of our operations, to thousands.

Again. Talk with DP about retconning the IB loan to a larger sum then, but please stop trying to cheat for a free military as a "fix". The result of that move would be multiplying our numbers of enemies and leads to insanely bloated armies all around.
 
@DragonParadox, am I correct in assuming that Archons dying during Tyrosh operation (who knows, we might roll straight 1s all around) will not break the deal we made?
All the lore/books/rituals will be exchanged before Tyrosh, right?
 
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dpara said:
Without Excel no one would have realized. And this is why Excel is the devil!

*prepares to go to work writing an importer for 15 years worth of evolved excel sheets*

THE DEVIL!

But I'm gonna side with Azel here, like this we have consistent rules for the future at the cost forgetting some oddities of the past.
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I know your pain. I truly do.
 
DragonParadox said:
"Beware that he remains an ally to aid and not a tool to use then," the Archon replies, surprising you. The point is a fair one you have to admit. Allying with someone because you think their vices can be tempered is a altogether different proposition to using 'tainted tools' in the full knowledge that they will never be more than that.
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I do not know if I said it, but this is actually quite insightful of the Archon.

There is a TON of moral ambiguity with how we treat our "frenemies".

Speaking of the Draco-Lich...

I am especially unhappy with how we dealt with Amrelath. Which is to say doing nothing with him. He is a dragon, and a red. He is fiercely prideful and vain. Above all that he is also ignorant and judging by his fate he is also foolish.

I want...

He needs...

He needs what Relath needed, and only really got when we whooped his Scaly behind.

Amrelath needs a reality check to understand that mortals are important, they are sources of treasure, magic, and pride. To say nothing of just how dangerous they are when mishandled.

On the other hand. He was stuck in a wall for the better part of a millenium, as a lich, and is probably desperately reaching for any shred of self worth or pride he can get his hands on. To be so reduced to be defeated to live on only as a monument to anothers domination of you. Truly the beings that tortured him were masters of their craft.

We sit Amrelath down and we give him the lesson dragons parents do not. We tell him about social contracts, we tell him about economics, we tell him about sending little gold soldiers out to capture more little gold soldiers.

Then we lay out the plans for his future, what we want from him, and what he we are willing to help him do. We want... (I guess its up to thread, but I...) want someone who can throw their weight around. Magically. Politically. Physically. I want a brutal hammer we can send to act in our name. A brutal threat, a brutal wizard, and a brutal politician. Someone we send to people we do not want to make friends with.

I think... maybe we should take him on as an apprentice. We already have one but... Hm. I suppose I should ask what do we want from him.
 
das_slash said:
But if we are planning to turn a desert into a lush, fertile land thats destroying an ecosystem right there, or changing large portions of it at least, that seems like overuse to me.
Not that it should stop us, we should just be aware of the possibility.
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Ecosystems change all the time, change is a natural part of nature, I don't think most will begrudge us turning the desert green, most deserts used to be forests long ago as well after all, and most nature deities tend to favor forests and such, so while it's possible they don't want the desert turned green, it's not a sure thing.
 
Anyway, I was poking magic spells and thinking about item creation for the navy (instead of what I was supposed to be doing).

So, a command word fireball thrower is 2700 IM (Range 600 ft). Bit expensive for an armament to stick on a lot of ships, at least until we've seriously gotten the magical infrastructure going.

However, moving from ship armament to fleet armament, I think an item of command word Control Water is worth the cost. At the price of 5760 IM, it's nothing to sneeze at, but it's also Long range (720 ft), and given the description can create a whirlpool which prevents the vessel from leaving it. Now, larger vessel with many oars might break free...so cast it a second time. With that, every 12 seconds a ship in range is immobilized at best, unable to bring any of it's offensive firepower to bear, or at worst is pulled down by the whirlpools and sinks.

Until we have submarines and/or flying ships (and naval combat changes into aerial combat), I can't see a better method for defeating surface vessels, since it attacks on the very conceit they're built upon, that is, the water they must rest on.
 
[X] Deliver the goods to Dalla now while you have the time
 
zxzx24 said:
I do not know if I said it, but this is actually quite insightful of the Archon.

There is a TON of moral ambiguity with how we treat our "frenemies".

Speaking of the Draco-Lich...

I am especially unhappy with how we dealt with Amrelath. Which is to say doing nothing with him. He is a dragon, and a red. He is fiercely prideful and vain. Above all that he is also ignorant and judging by his fate he is also foolish.

I want...

He needs...

He needs what Relath needed, and only really got when we whooped his Scaly behind.

Amrelath needs a reality check to understand that mortals are important, they are sources of treasure, magic, and pride. To say nothing of just how dangerous they are when mishandled.

On the other hand. He was stuck in a wall for the better part of a millenium, as a lich, and is probably desperately reaching for any shred of self worth or pride he can get his hands on. To be so reduced to be defeated to live on only as a monument to anothers domination of you. Truly the beings that tortured him were masters of their craft.

We sit Amrelath down and we give him the lesson dragons parents do not. We tell him about social contracts, we tell him about economics, we tell him about sending little gold soldiers out to capture more little gold soldiers.

Then we lay out the plans for his future, what we want from him, and what he we are willing to help him do. We want... (I guess its up to thread, but I...) want someone who can throw their weight around. Magically. Politically. Physically. I want a brutal hammer we can send to act in our name. A brutal threat, a brutal wizard, and a brutal politician. Someone we send to people we do not want to make friends with.

I think... maybe we should take him on as an apprentice. We already have one but... Hm. I suppose I should ask what do we want from him.
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Originally? To gtfo our Tower.

Now the situation is probably best illustrated in our requests for Amrelath to write down a History for us.

Amrelath is two beings his Undead Self and his Living counterpart.

The same reason we want the same thing written twice from different perspectives also shows why it's near pointless to get into the details with Amrelath now.

As such the only things we've discussed are the immediately relevant.
 
A lot of it has to do with not being sure whether or not Amrelath is going to go crazy over some misstep or perceived slight. Sure a regular dragon with its instincts has a chance of that happening, but once you've kicked their ass they have only two options: 1) Acknowledge your superiority because it preserves their dignity and position in the ordering of the world as they know it. 2) Die.

This is a case of the unreasonableness of dragons working against them. They have to simmer down once you've smacked them around a little bit, even if only to plot their next shot at the king of the hill more carefully.

A dracolich however? Who the fuck knows what they'll do. He could just as easily brush something off that a living dragon would blow a gasket over, or attempt to genocide all life for hundreds of square miles instead. It's a game of Russian roulette where neither side is totally sure how many bullets are loaded. Viserys also has valid reason for not attempting diplomacy with him unless it is absolutely necessary: Amrelath is currently blasting his frightful presence at full bore at all times, which is counterproductive. It is asinine and stupid, but the metric for whether or not someone is worth talking to is apparently "are they hard enough to hold a casual conversation with me while I am blaring killing intent at them for the entirety of the following conversation".

Until we've fixed his undead-ness, there's no point attempting to "correct" any of these errors we've noticed thus far. We have no baseline for correction, no idea what will stick, and moreover, a +3 CR adjustment for any attempted bluff calling on his part to render into consideration, so the fact that he's willing to downgrade to a less dangerous form willingly and without kicking up a fuss sort of encourages taking a light hand until then.
 
If we try the same deal we had with Relath there's no telling whose scaly behind will get kicked.

I would prefer Viserys and three more for a full Party at minimum if we want to fight him and he might not see that as a fair deafeat or even care about it.
 
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Part MCMLVII: The Seal of Law
  • Threadmarks
    • The Seal of Law​

    Twentieth Day of the Second Month 293 AC

    Malarys delivers his suggestions of the Greycloaks not in a stack of loose parchment but a slim bound codex with the personal seal of his House seared upon the cover with sorcery alongside the an unfamiliar symbol which you realize he must have chosen as the mark of his office, and thus the lawmen as a whole: a watchful eye surrounded by three feathered wings almost like the spokes of a wheel. Getting the point of the institution across while also being distinct enough to be recognizable even in simplified form, you recognize at once.

    "Well it can't be so bad from the weight of it," you say lightly as you open the report.

    "Simplicity is a needed virtue in such cases," the mage-priest replies. "Unlike a cart wheel which can be stopped and taken aside for mending, institutions must continue their work even as they are being given new form. No doubt there will be other improvements in the days to come, but that is what I consider most urgent."

    Some of the suggestions surprise you coming from Malarys, such as the reduction in work hours and that night shifts be paid slightly better to make up for the increased fatigue and danger. Others, however, are much more in line with what you expected...

    "The punishments for misconduct are too high," you sigh. The point about the availability of sorcerous healing magic making harsher punishments feasible is well made, but you would rather not have that association in people's heads. "No matter the cloaks they bear, these people used to be little more than dockside thugs and cutpurses less than two years ago, but they are the only source of relatively trustworthy and experienced lawmen available."

    The new commander of the Greycloaks looks very much as he had bitten into something rotten, made all the worse by the fact that it was not wholly unexpected. "They can be lightened somewhat then... page fourteen."

    This second list is more in line with what you would count proportional punishment, still harsh but not to the point of cruelty. You nod, satisfied.

    "Under the circumstances, however, I think it is all the more urgent to retire the current apprentice system in favor of systematic training of new recruits," Malarys continues. "It spreads bad habits like flees on dogs, with no one the wiser. This will of course engender higher expenses, but I believe lightening the strain on the judicial system will more than compensate for it."

    It is quite obvious he would like to say more on the matter, but does not wish to push a matter only tangentially connected to his current purpose. He had previously made it quite clear how little sense the right of appeal to the sovereign after the Westerosi manner makes to him.

    Much of the rest of the document deals with minor procedural improvements, most of which you keep as presented, though you do strike one or too for being too intrusive, for the lawmen at least. They are meant to deal with only base crime, not more insidious perils...

    "Finally, I would like to place a request for more clerks, particularly those who can speak and write a civilized tongue. Proper record keeping is far easier when the meaning of words does not flow like water from one ear to another. The simplest way to do so would be to buy and free slaves from the east, about a fifth more than the actual requirement should cover those who might wish to use their new-found freedom in some other manner."

    What do you decide?

    [] Approve the creation of a Greycloak Academy (Initial cost 2000 Gold; Lawmen costs increase by 20%; may be offset in part or in full by a decrease in corruption)

    [] Keep the current apprentice system

    [] Buy 25 slave scribes for the Greycloaks (Initial cost 500 Gold; sets a basis for more effective record keeping)

    [] Do not buy slaves

    OOC: As I began to write the Dalla part I realized that I misread the crafting plan last night and Leila is not done with her enchanting yet so you guys can't deliver the all the stuff you promised until the very end of the month. So instead I did the results lawman action. Not sure how to model corruption in the new system, but you guys definitely have it.
     
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    • Artemis1992 said:
    If we try the same deal we had with Relath there's no telling whose scaly behind will get kicked.

    I would prefer Viserys and three more for a full Party at minimum if we want to fight him and he might not see that as a fair deafeat or even care about it.
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    We just wait a couple more levels with kicking his ass, he has sworn years of service in return for reviving him, that take precedence over normal dragon diplomacy, the time for challenging him to a fight to get him to swear loyalty, will be the day his term of service expires.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    [] Approve the creation of a Greycloack academy (Initial cost 2000 Gold; Lawmen costs increase by 20%; may be offset in part or in full by a decrease in corruption)

    [] Keep the current apprentice system

    [] Buy 25 slave scribes for the greycloaks (Initial cost 500 Gold; sets a basis for more effective record keeping)

    [] Do not buy slaves
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    The Greycloak academy sounds like a good idea, but I'm absolutely against buying slave scribes, I would far rather finally go to the Opaline Vault and have the Dragonpens multiply, now that I have seen it take them a day to multiply, I think getting the Shaitan to let them in will be far easier, they are intelligent beings, and they aren't quite fast enough at breeding, that they can breed out of control in days if one escape.

    Gold enough for a Dragonpen only cost 8 IM in the Opaline Vault, for the 500 IM we would initially pay for the scribes, we could get 62.5 Dragonpens, and Dragonpens don't eat and have no desire for material possessions, so there's no upkeep with them.
     
    tarrangar said:
    The Greycloak academy sounds like a good idea, but I'm absolutely against buying slave scribes, I would far rather finally go to the Opaline Vault and have the Dragonpens multiply, now that I have seen it take them a day to multiply, I think getting the Shaitan to let them in will be far easier, they are intelligent beings, and they aren't quite fast enough at breeding, that they can breed out of control in days if one escape.

    Gold enough for a Dragonpen only cost 8 IM in the Opaline Vault, for the 500 IM we would initially pay for the scribes, we could get 62.5 Dragonpens, and Dragonpens don't eat and have no desire for material possessions, so there's no upkeep with them.
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    I've become more and more a fan of the Legion of Dragonpens but it's a nightmare getting people to go along with the system if they aren't involved in the running of it.

    So I think we should increase the number of Dragonpens for the positions we can Diplomance personally and ensure that no matter how large the Empire grows that remains a manageable number of people through an increasing use of Dragonpen "assistants" that just so happen to be perfectly loyal to the Empire and are quick to catch any "mistakes" of their overworked superior.

    Unrelatedly RIP cavalry charges.
     
    tarrangar said:
    Gold enough for a Dragonpen only cost 8 IM in the Opaline Vault, for the 500 IM we would initially pay for the scribes, we could get 62.5 Dragonpens, and Dragonpens don't eat and have no desire for material possessions, so there's no upkeep with them.
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    Good point.

    I'm actually surprised Malarys didn't consider it himself.

    Why waste money feeding fragile mortal slaves when you can make intelligent beings that not only love doing what you want them to do, but don't have to worry about such pesky things as sleeping or eating?
     
    DragonParadox said:
    Because he is aware of your current restrictive policy regarding calligraphy wyrm dissemination.
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    Ah.

    Fair enough.

    Though situations like this make me wonder if we should lessen the policy somewhat. Not to the point of letting them run free in the wild, but enough that such institutions in our realm that can use them can acquire them.

    I wonder if there's a way to make them 'sterile' for all intents and purposes, just in case someone tries to steal one?

    Maybe something like a Pern dragon where only the gold ones can breed and they spawn 'lesser' pens that can only scribe but not multiply.
     
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