A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

[BeepSmile]

We really need to spend a day with Valaena soon, ask her how she has been getting on with her lessons, talk to her about what we have learned about dragon eggs.

Viserys does have temper issues, though they only rarely rear their head. Given that he can set someone on fire with a mere gesture (via fiery burst), he might react first, think second if the offense is grave enough.

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Mhhh, Viserys doesn't read as one who gives into his temper that often tbh, the only time was the meeting with the Brravos rulership council, as far as I can recall. And considering his view on causing needless harm, and love of talking, he's far more likely to enter a huge rant in which he breaks a person down and makes them cry (Lyanna Stark, for an example), then builds them back up again with words of hope (not Lyanna Stark, because undead are a pain in the neck when they're upset) and convincing them that they can be more than they were, in the ways that truly matter - they just have to choose, maybe I can help, because he feels bad (incidentally eating their gratitude and loyalty, but that's semi-automatic ).

It's actually the fruit of carefully guided* caracterisation between SV wanting to play a character cleverer than them, the threads desire to not waste human resources and Azel's careful guidance into becoming a talky-speech dude... and now I'm freaking out. Bravo @Azel , Bravo.

*Guided in the sense that the first two were inevitable, and then @Azel appeared and helped us craft speeches and instill in the thread a desire for them. How very good of him to aid us in such.

 

[Azel]

@Azel Sage of Creation's 10th level ability to add lores works as if adding to an arcanum? I realize now there's a bit of a problem to it:
- No cost
- No downside

She could just... Make an arbitrary number of bodies with all the (powerful) lores, scatter them throughout the planes and be essentially unbeatable.

I suggest putting a hard cap to the number of bodies, establishing a cost, and a proper disadvantage. Like "death effects kill all bodies" (they all are metaphysically connected right?) and/or "sacrifice a spell slot of Xth level to have a body "slot"" like the archmage.

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What are you talking about? Each body costs the same as an Arcanum with HD equal to Lya. These things don't come cheap at all.

And making certain effects capable of killing all Lyas turns this from a feature into a liability, which is ridiculous given the price of a body.

 

[BeepSmile]

@Azel Sage of Creation's 10th level ability to add lores works as if adding to an arcanum? I realize now there's a bit of a problem to it:
- No cost
- No downside

She could just... Make an arbitrary number of bodies with all the (powerful) lores, scatter them throughout the planes and be essentially unbeatable.

I suggest putting a hard cap to the number of bodies, establishing a cost, and a proper disadvantage. Like "death effects kill all bodies" (they all are metaphysically connected right?) and/or "sacrifice a spell slot of Xth level to have a body "slot"" like the archmage.

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+50% Cost to infuse a Lore to each body than it does for an Arcanum, or 100%, or 500% ?
The death effect isn't a downside imo, just a weakness. And if that happens, maybe Lya's bodies can be raised normally (no level/con loss past the first), but an XP cost for the uh, reactivation of the bodies? Re-insertion of Lya into the other body-forms?
Well, the death effect is a downside in that her being in two-places at once makes two possible locations to assault with a death-effect, but tbh, at level 18, I'm starting to get worried about beings with true-death abalties, or even lesser versions, like something similar to what the Realms Helps Creature: Dragon, Gloom Adult has*, but greater than that.

*Eternal Consumption (Su): Whenever a gloom dragon eats a dead creature no larger than two size categories smaller than itself a new tombstone plate grows on the gloom dragon's back. This requires 10 rounds for a creature two size categories smaller than the gloom dragon -4 rounds per size category smaller than that (minimum 1 round). The tombstone plate records the consumed creature's name (if any), date and place of birth, and date and place of death. Only a carefully worded wish or miracle, followed by a resurrection, can restore a consumed creature to life- and only then after the gloom dragon is slain.

But a cap on the number of bodies sounds good. like HD/4 or HD/5+1 maybe?

 

[BeepSmile]

Also, highly unrelated to matter at hand (some woman's come back from the dead or something? ):

We really need to have Viserys spend a day with Valaena soon, ask her how she has been getting on with her lessons, talk to her about what we have learned about dragon eggs. Laugh, and tell her while Viserys is not a swordsman by any measure, he's had enough battle experience (and experience from Garin, Waymar and Richard kicking his ass) to spar with her a bit.

Underlying message: You do not need a husband to be mighty, do not worry about what your parents expect of you, the world is different from what they were raised to expect. It's not that they do not want the best for you, it's that the context of what means is different from what they understand. You have shown your cleverness, I have faith in your courage.

Also, here's a VS sword (note: I'm against giving her the sentient devil weapon, and the VS is for prestige for a bit, we can see about getting her a lighter one later, and tell her that she'll get a lighter one - this is just to keep her parents from having a go at any perceived "failures" to grab a husband), was going to give it when your magic awoke, but your parents want to come visit, so, might as well get used to it now.

Uhh... general push for self-belief and to value herself for herself and such. And to inspire the confidence to stand up to her parents, weather it be to speak up or just lie to them, by saying that she'll try harder at the silly stuff they are pushing her to do. Either's grand

 

[Artemis1992]

The death effect isn't a downside imo, just a weakness. And if that happens, maybe Lya's bodies can be raised normally (no level/con loss past the first), but an XP cost for the uh, reactivation of the bodies? Re-insertion of Lya into the other body-forms?

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No, it's a giant downside, because we'd have to keep every single body safe or risk Lya in her entirety.
I'd prefer to have a single Lya in that case.

 

[firefrog600]

Armies that large currently exceed the party's capabilities, due to the simple number needing to be killed and the limited resources we can bring to bear in any given days, specifically spells and spell slots.

That said, there's also very little need to destroy so many. Such a gathering of combatants will have plenty of nobles on hand acting as commanders whom we can easily assassinate, or better yet, abduct as leverage and for ransom.

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I doubt it really I am talking with strategy Viserys could just go dragon form and do hit and run attacks for a day or two its not like they can outpace him and they definitely can't kill him if hes to high for them to shoot at not saying this is absolute though just not impossible. Also I am pretty sure a lot of their weapons would just ping off our dragon body.

 

[BeepSmile]

No, it's a giant downside, because we'd have to keep every single body safe or risk Lya in her entirety.
I'd prefer to have a single Lya in that case.

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Eh, it's an increase in risk that already existed, provided her multi-bodied existence works ok with normal raising-magics .
It's not like she'll take one of them out for a solo jaunt to Dis - you take your friends for that.

And the nice thing is that she can easily just keep one doing stuff in SD while having another adventuring - I mean, there's no such thing as safe, but SD isn't too bad.

 

[Azel]

Eh, it's an increase in risk that already existed, provided her multi-bodied existence works ok with normal raising-magics .
It's not like she'll take one of them out for a solo jaunt to Dis - you take your friends for that.

And the nice thing is that she can easily just keep one doing stuff in SD while having another adventuring - I mean, there's no such thing as safe, but SD isn't too bad.

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No. You want to make her ludicrously vulnerable for no reason at all. The entire point of that feature is to make her able to invest resources to be harder to kill, not easier.

TNE is just inventing problems that don't exist.

 

[BeepSmile]

No. You want to make her ludicrously vulnerable for no reason at all. The entire point of that feature is to make her able to invest resources to be harder to kill, not easier.

TNE is just inventing problems that don't exist.

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Oh, no, I don't want to introduce weaknesses, I just thought this one didn't seem as huge as you and Artimis seem to feel it is; but I really don't have strong feelings on it myself. Frankly, I am constantly suppressing my urge to powergame, so if you think that this idea is way overboard, or if things are great as-is, then I shall happily side with the "Moar Powar/No Nerfing" side of the force . Well, abstain due to lack of motivating opinion.

Let's put it like this: I did not have a strong feeling on Dany's class features being OP. I'm not going to have one on weather Lya's class features are .

But I do wish that Waymar had some Duskblade style improvements as part and parcel of his class, that full channel at level 11? 13? ?? of Duskblade looks amazing.

 

[Paradosi]

[X] Snowfire

 

[Deliste]

No. You want to make her ludicrously vulnerable for no reason at all. The entire point of that feature is to make her able to invest resources to be harder to kill, not easier.

TNE is just inventing problems that don't exist.

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Can you clarify please.

Can she make multiple bodies with full capabilities and if one of those bodies dies she just shrugs and makes a new one?

Cause that sounds like the Astral Projection adventuring scenario, the one that let's D&D Wizards trump everything forever, but on steroids.

Edit: GP not really being all that a limiting factor for such an effect now that WBL doesn't exist.

 

[Azel]

Can you clarify please.

Can she make multiple bodies with full capabilities and if one of those bodies dies she just shrugs and makes a new one?

Cause that sounds like the Astral Projection adventuring scenario, the one that let's D&D Wizards trump everything forever, but on steroids.

Edit: GP not really being all that a limiting factor for such an effect now that WBL doesn't exist.

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It also takes 50 XP per level. At 17th, when she can make her first bodies, that's 850 XP per body.

If you think that too low, complain at TNE for badgering me into slashing the cost that much.

The class has been like that forever and I'm not going to even entertain the notion of changing it now. I gave up on Dreamweaver already.

 

[Deliste]

It also takes 50 XP per level. At 17th, when she can make her first bodies, that's 850 XP per body.

If you think that too low, complain at TNE for badgering me into slashing the cost that much.

The class has been like that forever and I'm not going to even entertain the notion of changing it now. I gave up on Dreamweaver already.

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Being able to adventure without consequence is kind of a big deal.

I mean, people were joking about it but as is there literally is no downside besides IM cost to taking a solo trek through Dis, assuming of course she survives long enough to take down the first gribbly she comes across to soak up that 850xp loss.

Even Astral Projection has the Astral Cord to worry about.

Anyway, I won't try to convince you of anything but if this is all as stated then I'll be voting with TNE.

 

[Azel]

@Deliste, I'm giving it a 99% chance that the first 9th level spell we get will be Astral Projection on TNEs and Goldfishs insistence, so the entire argument is disingenuous.

Furthermore, there is an Astral Cord between the bodies and a body for whom all are cut dies.

 

[Artemis1992]

I think we missed something important.
No diamonds were harmed during this Resurrection.

How and how can we copy that?

But I do wish that Waymar had some Duskblade style improvements as part and parcel of his class, that full channel at level 11? 13? ?? of Duskblade looks amazing.

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He gets that from TNE's class, nowor next level.

@Azel
I think feeling a death might be bad for Lya anyway, even if we don't have mechanical consequences.

I'd be careful with every last body, no matter what.
No reason to nerf it for now.

 

[Deliste]

@Deliste, I'm giving it a 99% chance that the first 9th level spell we get will be Astral Projection on TNEs and Goldfishs insistence, so the entire argument is disingenuous.

Furthermore, there is an Astral Cord between the bodies and a body for whom all are cut dies.

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So Lya's class feature does have an Astral cord and the main bodies single cord can sever all the others? Sorry last bit was a little unclear.

Astral Projection the spell still requires you cast a 9th level and leaves your real body helpless so it doesn't allow indefinite actions across multiple planes simultaneously forever as Lya's CF does.

Taken to the Logical extreme Lya should be the Nurse Joy of this universe, one in every city. And there's nothing really stopping her from doing so.

I dunno, I respect that a lot of work goes into these PRCs but it goes into classes that literally don't need a single class feature besides it's method of spellcasting to be far and away the most OP thing in the room. Now add effective immortality and quasi-omnipresence.

Custom PRC for MC Sorcerer (cliche unloved sibling of casters) makes sense, for secondary characters that are already Tier 1 casters, not so much.

 

[BeepSmile]

I think we missed something important.
No diamonds were harmed during this Resurrection.

How and how can we copy that?

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All my yes. Probably a simialr way to Taimat: God-Juice/Power/Bullshit*.

*Bullshit, as said by some one playing a level 13 mage, as part of a group of similarly leveled mages

He gets that from TNE's class, nowor next level.

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Ode to Joy? I say so.

@TotallyNotEvil, you know your stuff mate

 

[Crake]

"Nothing really stopping her from doing so."

Besides finite amounts of XP? Gold as reagents? Time?

 

[Deliste]

"Nothing really stopping her from doing so."

Besides finite amounts of XP? Gold as reagents? Time?

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Ok so Lya makes a Lya, the Lya just made by Lya has all the ability of a level 17-20 Tier 0(with custom ParC accounted for) Caster to scrounge up the resources that went into making her to make herself once again.

Take the von Neumann approach and extrapolate.

Original Lya drinks tea while this is happening.

 

[DragonParadox]

@DragonParadox

Reminder of our intent to shape the festival to be less focused on murdering Damphair, if only just to deny the worm the full attention of a festival.

We'll get a vote on the nature of the celebration right? I'd imagine so seeing as we're paying for the bulk of it.

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I remember yes.

I think we missed something important.
No diamonds were harmed during this Resurrection.

How and how can we copy that?

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Be a chosen on the gods in the place of their greatest power, body rooted in place, mind connected to the God-Mind forever dying, but never truly dead. I mean Bloodraven has a lot of advantages to go with his enthronement and having to listen to the gods howl in his ear. For instance he can with days of meditation swap out his sorcerer spells, and even feats at will. Going further with months of preparation he can in his direct presence use the Salient Divine Ability Alter Reality for specific purposes, which is what he did to bring back Rhaella.

 

[etincelle047]

[X] Snowfire

 

[Crake]

Why not just limit the number of non-Arcanum bodies she can have at any one time?

So the capstone bodies, she could only make several. And if you insist that death effects effect each and every one, make it so that each body gets to make a save against them to signify the compartmentalized defensive strategy the feature grants, rather than making it a pure liability. This would also encourage you to either not make too many for fear of losing a bunch of them to a surprise lich attack, or else invest in many simply to give more chances of avoiding death?

It's still an investment of resources, it has hard and fast limits, but it does the following:

1) Does not take away the intended "limited immortality" fluff of the class.
2) Does nothing to really "nerf" the power of having multiple bodies.
3) Adds a risk/reward and cost-benefit analysis element to the class, rather than discouraging making use of multiple bodies if they all get taken out by one fucking spell.

 

[Deliste]

Why not just limit the number of non-Arcanum bodies she can have at any one time?

So the capstone bodies, she cold only make several. And if you insist that death effects effect each and every one, make it so that each body gets to make a save against them to signify the compartmentalized defensive strategy the feature grants, rather than making it a pure liability. This would also encourage you to either not make too many for fear of losing a bunch of them to a surprise lich attack, or else invest in many simply to give more chances of avoiding death?

It's still an investment of resources, it has hard and fast limits, but it does the following:

1) Does not take away the intended "limited immortality" fluff of the class.
2) Does nothing to really "nerf" the power of having multiple bodies.
3) Adds a risk/reward and cost-benefit analysis element to the class, rather than discouraging making use of multiple bodies if they all get taken out by one fucking spell.

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Everyone with 1 body has to worry about all of them being taken out with 1 spell.

She simply has the exact same risk as everyone else plus she gets clones. Not seeing how that's more of a liability unless the plan is to abuse that to regularly send her into situations a PC wouldn't.

With your "fix" the downside is, "my extra bodies are in one very narrow aspect, as vulnerable as everybody else's single body but for any other form of damage, spell, curse etc. I'm Gucci."

I can't think of anyone who wouldn't take

Class Feature: Cannot be killed by anything but a death effect.

 

[BeepSmile]

Be a chosen on the gods in the place of their greatest power, body rooted in place, mind connected to the God-Mind forever dying, but never truly dead. I mean Bloodraven has a lot of advantages to go with his enthronement and having to listen to the gods howl in his ear. For instance he can with days of meditation swap out his sorcerer spells, and even feats at will. Going further with months of preparation he can in his direct presence use the Salient Divine Ability Alter Reality for specific purposes, which is what he did to bring back Rhaella.

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Ok, yeah. That... that's impressive. That's Lya+ levels of impressive.

The dying forever thing seems a bit iffy, but I can see someone thinking about it for a bit rather than dismissing such power easily.
And to think, we just want to save on diamonds.

"Mommy, why did the Great Overgod Viserys decide to Ascend?"

"Well, son, in the great book it is written that when asked, his Avatar on this plane responds "It seemed cheaper than not Ascending to Overgod"."

Edit: Also, thinking about it further, your obvious excitement for writing these scenes makes me appreciate you getting through all that exposition beforehand. So thank you. And damm, but trying to ask all the questions off Bloodraven, and answer all the questions for Rhaella would have been awful to try and juggle.

 

[Crake]

@Azel Prepare your sword and shield. Incoming crusade.