A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
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Same here.
So what I'm hearing is that I should hurry up with the update before mechanics salt overflows.
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I'm not even really trying to argue. TNE flat out knows more about 3.5/PF mechanics than me, I want to understand his reasoning. I'm against nerfing PCs in general, unless the problem is really bad, but that doesn't mean I don't want to get his thought process. Also I'd like to extend him enough trust to be internally consistent in how he thinks about balance, so I want to see what I'm missing.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
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His reasoning is fairly straight forward. He thinks that Wizard or Cleric levels could round out the rest of Dany or Lya's progression to 20, and they would be perfectly acceptable as-is. And that's technically correct, but it's like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
He argues that A) because he is only targeting features that have not been gained by the PC in question yet, and B) Because they are Tier 1 classes, and finally C) and because DP has decided to eliminate standard WBL constraints, it is time to swing the nerfbat at certain classes repeatedly.
That his classes do not require repeated nerfings actually has little to do with favoring his own work, and more to do with the fact that he was modifying classes that aren't Tier 1 to begin with, and whatever features they gain don't precisely match up against a wizard or cleric in power or versatility regardless.
Nobody is more or less wrong in this entire conversation, it's just completely pointless. It is creating and then eliminating problems where they do not currently exist.
He argues that A) because he is only targeting features that have not been gained by the PC in question yet, and B) Because they are Tier 1 classes, and finally C) and because DP has decided to eliminate standard WBL constraints, it is time to swing the nerfbat at certain classes repeatedly.
That his classes do not require repeated nerfings actually has little to do with favoring his own work, and more to do with the fact that he was modifying classes that aren't Tier 1 to begin with, and whatever features they gain don't precisely match up against a wizard or cleric in power or versatility regardless.
Nobody is more or less wrong in this entire conversation, it's just completely pointless. It is creating and then eliminating problems where they do not currently exist.
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- being near locations is my passion.
DP providing awesome, moving, saltless updates for the thread, thereby preventing YOU fron getting your daily dose of Salt?
Just come over here to PrC corner!
It has an exit leading to the oceans of balance (i.e. The Dead Sea)!
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dpara
slightly confused ascendant
As I see it TNE interpretation is that there are the DnD rules and the world works as described in the rules, e.g. arguments about ECL, treasure values, "we're not well equipped enough for our ECL", balance, "1st level spells blocking CR 30 signature abilities"...
And I that agree our tier 1 prcs are dandwiki overpowered, ...for a tabletop game, where the rules were designed that every player can feel useful.
As such I am not surprised that he has problems with them, it's entirely consistent.
..but it feels like I've had these arguments for years. Oh wait. I did
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- The internet
Speaking of. I don't think I've added my bit to the chorus yet DP so:
1. Thanks for soldiering through the Infodump of doom. There were questions the players wanted answers on for years as I understand it and a lot of super neat info besides. There was also a lot of fun little character stuff with Greatest Uncle.
2. All of the stuff around our mother's Resurrection has been actually amazing and moving. I wanted to make a special shout out to the little aside interaction between Viserys and Sir Richard. 'Right in the feels' is I think how the kids say it?
tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
Okay guys continue being salty about mechanics, apparently it gets us faster updates.
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- Location
- Germany
Not really.Aaand I'm awake again. Social Votecrafter Snowfire standing b-
*gets to PrC salt*
...don't we have better things to do right now than argue about PrC 'balance'?
When the night is long and the update far away we always have stupid discussions.
It's unfortunatly not always the fun kind of stupid.
- Location
- Australia
Which reminds me how glad I was that Mother was back, I want lots of interludes for the traditional Westerosi perspective tinged with that familial closeness.
Richard is always the dour one, it kind of snuck by just how much familiarity is shown when he does speak up, the King is not normally interrupted, nor are his conversations.
Actually the fact Richard spoke up at all is very interesting, I love it
Paradosi
Myrddin
- Location
- VV Cephei
Hear, hear. By the way, did Dreamweaver get the stick? Haven't kept up to date with all the nerf this, nerf that stuff. If yes, how?
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
I'm just going to go and veto the fuck out of that idea right now :|
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- The internet
It's unfortunate for me that DP and I apparently have almost exactly opposite sleep schedules, because I most often have free time to discuss stuff in depth when he's already asleep. So I end up in the overnight 'salination station' a lot.
On that note, goodnight all, hope I didn't contribute too much to the excavation of the salt caves for anyone.
- Location
- Australia
Denied.
I think we should murder Rela-
We should murder Craster, no seriously.
"I've got no fear of what's out there. When the white cold comes, your swords and cloaks and pretty fires won't help you. Only ones left will be those alright with the gods, the real gods."
He worships them.
And he sacrifices his own sons to them regularly, in this world of awakened magic, he will be a literal monster.
Part MDCXLVI: Riding into Summer
Riding into Summer
Nineteenth Day of the Twelfth Month 292 AC
Somehow you had not truly expected to hear such words from her, notions that you had long since dismissed as pointless, absurdly limiting. You realize that in some ways you might yet see your mother with a child's eyes, just as she had nearly called you such a moment ago. Who she is does not make her right. However, it does make you consider the motives and the feelings behind the words more then you otherwise might. She is grasping for something, anything that she can help you with, that she can fix in a world bereft of sense.
Thus it is with as much or more care then you have given when treating with fiends monsters and gods that you consider your next words. "Within the Secret City, there are few ways for one to support a comfortable life that don't involve trade, mother. And my successes won acclaim and friendship that simple magic could not. Without those, much of what I've done in civilizing the Stepstones would have been impossible. One cannot throw coin or swords or even arcane healing at a pirate den and expect it to become something else. There is need for administrators to collect the taxes, and influx of honest sailors to thin out the locals and man the ships. Who might these people follow?"
She blinks up at you, surprised but thoughtful. "I confess I had never considered what respectability might be in Braavos, but surely now that you have left the city and conquered your own lands you can hand these shares to a trusted underling to handle."
"I am in a partnership with a lord Keyholder of Braavos and a lady late of Volantis who do handle much of the day to day business, but I would certainly not consider them underlings. They simply have much more time to handle the business, just as my steward has more time to handle the day to day business of Sorcerer's Deep."
As you had hopped the full name of your capital distracts her, but before she can raise an objection Dany speaks up. "It used to be called Torturer's Deep."
That startles a laugh from your mother, then she looks at Dany with a vague sort of guilt. Seeing this as clearly as you do, Dany sighs and says softly, "I think Lord Bloodraven put it most concisely, the power to dream true leaves one with few illusions, and mine are the gifts of Daenys, even to bring dreams into the world of flesh."
"The last time I saw you... you were a baby," she sounds wistful. "It must be rather strange for you." Her voice trembles ever so slightly as she forces calm into it.
"Strange can be nice," Dany replies with a smile, reaching out to hold hands.
So the conversation moves away from you and from the matters that might be counted of your station. Dany speaks of her friends and companions, and if your mother is not entirely mollified to hear that prominent among them is Oberyn Martell's bastard daughter, at least she does not yet know the full colorful reputation of the Sand Snakes. She does, however, seem relived that Dorne is still invested in your cause, and talk of distention among the Houses of the Narrow Sea quickly segues into a explanation of the politics of the Crownlands with Ser Richard occasionally speaking up to explain how things had fallen out after the Usurpation.
Dany listens dutifully at first, then with interest, interjecting questions here and there about the kinships and the feuds that might be used for leverage and if her questions certainly do not sound child-like. At the very least she has not suggested poisoning even once.
When the time comes for your sister to meditate upon her spells for the morrow she politely excuses herself and explains the matter in clear and simple terms."You can listen if you want, it's not secret," she adds
"Do you also need to do this?" your mother asks you.
"No, he just has to sleep," Dany huffs. "Entirely unfair if you ask me."
You sleep the full night through, neither of you wishing to explain that two hours is more than enough, and still less that you do not strictly need to eat.
***
Twentieth Day of the Twelfth Month 292 AC
When you and your company of Children of the Forest finally make your way out of the ancient tunnels and back among the vast moss-covered columns of the trees, you find the air fresh, the birds singing, and the sky clear of any cloud. You would name it the Old Gods' parting gift, if you did not know Bloodraven is far too sparing with his power to give in to such whimsy.
"It doesn't feel the slightest bit cold," your mother says wonderingly, letting down her hood as she looks out through the Haunted Forest.
"I should hope not. I would hate for my enchantments to be unreliable," Dany jests. Of course she had laid far more than a warding against the cold upon your mother, but those spells she had not explained in quite so much detail lest the implications be too much.
A short while later you had conjured steeds for all your company, for the Children to ride two by two and Dany with the last one, their packs tied securely to the side.
"Do they know how to ride?" your mother asks worriedly.
"Not to worry, your grace," Ser Richard replies, already in the saddle. "These are not really horses, more the story-book idea of what a horse aught to be, the sorts of stories that go 'and they galloped for three days straight'."
"You must be getting rather tired of me starting over every little thing," she sighs, looking to you.
"Never," you answer honestly, getting into your own saddle.
How will you present your conquest of the Stepstones?
[] Write in
OOC: I only used a little of the vote because Dany rolled to interrupt and distract Rhaella, and then she took the chance to let her talk about something she is skilled in, after which came the explanations of magic, to make it less scary.
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- Germany
We had to share the loot with some asshole dragon, but mostly it was fun.
- Location
- Germany
Viserys: "Quick. Somebody remind me what humans do in such situations."
- Location
- Australia
"Obviously we spend the next few hours feasting. Gods Viserys, it's called breaking fast for a reason."
Edit:
I wonder how Mother takes the man-smart Dragon, is that weird to her?
She really must be lost in a whirlwind.
Her son can turn into a Dragon but Viserys knows Magic.
Human+Magic=Dragon. Logical.
Dragon being man-smart means what? A Dragon learnt magic?
But how if not man-smart, a horse or tiger does not learn magic. Do they?
Perhaps anything can become magic.
Or maybe it's another man with magic, who lives as a Dragon.
Does Viserys live as a Dragon?
Do men live as horses?
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- Location
- Germany
Learn from the glorious Mindflayer infiltration programm.
" Now we shall go consume dead meat and plants to fuel our bodies. I, like my fellow humans, do so trice a day, in a process which is in no way inferior and inefficient compared to the bi-monthly consuption of brains some other species prefer."
If only how you did that gardening were not common knowledge.