Set off a nuclear bomb in the CoB without being noticed.

You can't do that.

You can either not do that because I can come up with a logical reason why that does not work...
OR
... you can't do that because otherwise, the Sultan of Brass can do the same and nuke every of your cities with the hidden cache of doomsday weapons he has left. Or Asmodeus does. Same difference.

There is not one rule for Viserys and one rule for everyone else.
Unless you want to end this quest with a "Rocks Fall; Everyone Dies"-scenario, you should really start considering what your reaction would be if your latest clever idea was used against you.
 
Set off a nuclear bomb in the CoB without being noticed.

You can't do that.

You can either not do that because I can come up with a logical reason why that does not work...
OR
... you can't do that because otherwise, the Sultan of Brass can do the same and nuke every of your cities with the hidden cache of doomsday weapons he has left. Or Asmodeus does. Same difference.

There is not one rule for Viserys and one rule for everyone else.
Unless you want to end this quest with a "Rocks Fall; Everyone Dies"-scenario, you should really start considering what your reaction would be if your latest clever idea was used against you.

I'm going to say option A is is preferable and veto option B. I have worked on this world too much to see it all blown up now over late night divination musings. :V
 
I don't want the answer to be yes, just trying to pry what the exact limitations of divination is.
The border is wherever it has to be to preserve a coherent plot, a functional world and at least a modicum of challenge for the players.

That is all.

This is what it all boils down to.


The Uncertainty Ward exists because in a world with perfect divination, there can be no game, because both side can just divine each other ad nauseum until every move is predicted, every secret known and all uncertainty banished. The only exception is a high-level PC with Mindblank.
The Phase Ward exists because in a world with perfect point to point Teleportation, location or distance loses all meaning and the myriad of ways to move through solid matter would remove even the notion of up and down, inside and outside. The only defense is being a high-level PC who can detect such intruders.
The Boundary Ward exists because in a world where you can march an entire army from any place in the world to any other within the blink of an eye by using a Gate, there is nothing stopping you from marching your entire army into the enemies throne room. The best defense you can hope for is a high-level PC who can dispel the Gate.
The Dispersal Ward exists because in a world where you can destroy entire cities with a few well applied spells, there is no reason for someone not to do exactly that whenever he pleases and murdering everyone trying to stop them. Of course, the best weapon against a high-level PC is a high-level PC.

D&D is a system designed for 4 people to walk into a room that is 25ft by 25ft, beat the orc standing in the middle to death and to then plunder the treasure chest behind him. Which is a Mimic and eats the Rogue. Fun times are had. The Rogue is resurrected. On to the next 25ft by 25ft room, this time with a Demon standing in the middle and a pile of gold in the corner.

The wardstones exist to reign in the overpowered bullshit that would destroy the setting once it leaves the space of 25ft by 25ft rooms. They are giant bandaids on a setting broken by rules that were never intended or designed for build a world on. Everfire Dale was your taste of being on the receiving end of that exact bullshit.

Duct tape will be applied to Divination, Mindblank and people trying to abuse it as necessary to keep the setting working.

Is that a satisfying answer to you?
 
The border is wherever it has to be to preserve a coherent plot, a functional world and at least a modicum of challenge for the players.

That is all.

This is what it all boils down to.


The Uncertainty Ward exists because in a world with perfect divination, there can be no game, because both side can just divine each other ad nauseum until every move is predicted, every secret known and all uncertainty banished. The only exception is a high-level PC with Mindblank.
The Phase Ward exists because in a world with perfect point to point Teleportation, location or distance loses all meaning and the myriad of ways to move through solid matter would remove even the notion of up and down, inside and outside. The only defense is being a high-level PC who can detect such intruders.
The Boundary Ward exists because in a world where you can march an entire army from any place in the world to any other within the blink of an eye by using a Gate, there is nothing stopping you from marching your entire army into the enemies throne room. The best defense you can hope for is a high-level PC who can dispel the Gate.
The Dispersal Ward exists because in a world where you can destroy entire cities with a few well applied spells, there is no reason for someone not to do exactly that whenever he pleases and murdering everyone trying to stop them. Of course, the best weapon against a high-level PC is a high-level PC.

D&D is a system designed for 4 people to walk into a room that is 25ft by 25ft, beat the orc standing in the middle to death and to then plunder the treasure chest behind him. Which is a Mimic and eats the Rogue. Fun times are had. The Rogue is resurrected. On to the next 25ft by 25ft room, this time with a Demon standing in the middle and a pile of gold in the corner.

The wardstones exist to reign in the overpowered bullshit that would destroy the setting once it leaves the space of 25ft by 25ft rooms. They are giant bandaids on a setting broken by rules that were never intended or designed for build a world on. Everfire Dale was your taste of being on the receiving end of that exact bullshit.

Duct tape will be applied to Divination, Mindblank and people trying to abuse it as necessary to keep the setting working.

Is that a satisfying answer to you?
No I got that reasoning when we were designing the system.

But there has to be some utility to divination magic as well, because total removal of an entire school magic feels bad. I guess if it has to be sacrificed for the coherency of the world I am satisfied.
 
No I got that reasoning when we were designing the system.

But there has to be some utility to divination magic as well, because total removal of an entire school magic feels bad. I guess if it has to be sacrificed for the coherency of the world I am satisfied.
I'm hesitant to wade into the shark infested waters of this topic, but I'd like to point out that not being able to perfectly divine everyone everywhere doesn't make the school useless.

It can be used for many incredibly valuable non-combat purposes including such items as aiding in research, performing market analysis, predicting the weather, identifying and classifying unknown magical phenomena, improving the abilities of skilled laborers across the board, investigating most common crimes, and many many more similar activities.

If you aren't planning to go hunting demons or something low to mid grade divination is second only to healing magic in terms of how much it can immediately improve your life and your society in general.
 
If I may level with you guys it is a bit frustrating to have world-building numbers that actual thought has gone into being treated as 'lol these make no sense and the world should break'. It is OK to have concerns, but maybe lead with more constructive parts of those concerns. It can be demoralizing as the GM to have the first reason to a bit of worldbuilding be not 'how do we engage with this IC' but this sort of outside commentary that seeks to blow stuff out of the water
Ok, so first of I'm sorry.
I was looking at the Average Salamander as the average Salamander, not his little Flamebrother.

Secondly I actually wanted to go somewhere marginally more contructive, but it was late so I posted in small peaces.

What I meant to say was not that a few hundred thousand Salamanders break the worldbuilding, but that they can well change the world and the Imperium in particular, though only as one part of a greater shift.
That shift is one mirrored by the real world with automation, namely that there is less need for human workers. The mines from a few pages ago are one example, how one guy with Stoneshape and then a few Undead can mine things better, faster and saver than a regular crew could.
Agriculture undergoes similar shifts, with the rituals and spells we have greatly reducing the number of peasants needed to feed the whole population, though for now we are covering that by a switch to other crops, non-food or luxury.

Similar changes go on in other areas, with magic you need less workers and what workers you do need, you can get better ones than humans in most cases, for example human blacksmiths will have a hard time competing with Azer or Salamander.

Even if we don't go all the way as @Azel mentioned and just replace all crafting-jobs with Fabricate items and start working on our arcology, it will still be something of a change for the mosty-human population to be needed less and less for work.

Which is not a critique, just something I would find interesting to read about here, but the issues that arise and the solutions Viserys will have to find.
Now that Azel brought Sci-Fi into the matter, I am actually reminded of Stellaris, where it is usually less than efficient to leave your main-species be the same towards the endgame, so you have Ascension paths to improve them. Genetic augmentation, cyborg-enhancements or awakening them all to psionic power are the paths over there. And with our fleshforges and the options magic gives us I see something comparable to each of those as possible for the future of humanity in the Imperium.
 
Ok, so first of I'm sorry.
I was looking at the Average Salamander as the average Salamander, not his little Flamebrother.

Secondly I actually wanted to go somewhere marginally more contructive, but it was late so I posted in small peaces.

What I meant to say was not that a few hundred thousand Salamanders break the worldbuilding, but that they can well change the world and the Imperium in particular, though only as one part of a greater shift.
That shift is one mirrored by the real world with automation, namely that there is less need for human workers. The mines from a few pages ago are one example, how one guy with Stoneshape and then a few Undead can mine things better, faster and saver than a regular crew could.
Agriculture undergoes similar shifts, with the rituals and spells we have greatly reducing the number of peasants needed to feed the whole population, though for now we are covering that by a switch to other crops, non-food or luxury.

Similar changes go on in other areas, with magic you need less workers and what workers you do need, you can get better ones than humans in most cases, for example human blacksmiths will have a hard time competing with Azer or Salamander.

Even if we don't go all the way as @Azel mentioned and just replace all crafting-jobs with Fabricate items and start working on our arcology, it will still be something of a change for the mosty-human population to be needed less and less for work.

Which is not a critique, just something I would find interesting to read about here, but the issues that arise and the solutions Viserys will have to find.
Now that Azel brought Sci-Fi into the matter, I am actually reminded of Stellaris, where it is usually less than efficient to leave your main-species be the same towards the endgame, so you have Ascension paths to improve them. Genetic augmentation, cyborg-enhancements or awakening them all to psionic power are the paths over there. And with our fleshforges and the options magic gives us I see something comparable to each of those as possible for the future of humanity in the Imperium.
There issue he is, if that is all it takes, why are the Planes not a post scarcity utopia? They had all these advantages all this time and should have been able to do the same.

So it can't work, because otherwise, all the established worldbuilding for the Planes would be functionally wrong.
 
There issue he is, if that is all it takes, why are the Planes not a post scarcity utopia? They had all these advantages all this time and should have been able to do the same.

So it can't work, because otherwise, all the established worldbuilding for the Planes would be functionally wrong.
When in doubt I assume the same reasons why we don't have a fair division of the ( as far as I know sufficient) ressources IRL.
A mix of simple inertia to keep things as they were and the interests of rich and powerful people to stay that way.

Societies where most of the elite doesn't age and keeps to their work or office for millenia will have the same issues in far grander scale.
 
When in doubt I assume the same reasons why we don't have a fair division of the ( as far as I know sufficient) ressources IRL.
A mix of simple inertia to keep things as they were and the interests of rich and powerful people to stay that way.

Societies where most of the elite doesn't age and keeps to their work or office for millenia will have the same issues in far grander scale.
That's an incredibly thin reason when there are plenty of opportunities for any one group to simply opt out of established society with their buddy the 10th lvl mage and go on to make fully automated gay space communism on their own. Which are not even remotely rare anymore due to the rampant power creep in ASWAH. Which isn't even getting into SLAs.

It's impossible for any one polity, group or class to control the means of production in a setup where some dude can be dreaming about factories to get a spell that makes him outproduce any other way of creating goods from raw materials.
 
That's an incredibly thin reason when there are plenty of opportunities for any one group to simply opt out of established society with their buddy the 10th lvl mage and go on to make fully automated gay space communism on their own. Which are not even remotely rare anymore due to the rampant power creep in ASWAH. Which isn't even getting into SLAs.

It's impossible for any one polity, group or class to control the means of production in a setup where some dude can be dreaming about factories to get a spell that makes him outproduce any other way of creating goods from raw materials.
Well then I am content to keep ignoring these implications.
 
Ok, so first of I'm sorry.
I was looking at the Average Salamander as the average Salamander, not his little Flamebrother.

Secondly I actually wanted to go somewhere marginally more contructive, but it was late so I posted in small peaces.

That is fine and a discussion worth having. I'm sorry if I came off as not listening all the way. It was late and I had just finished this thing which lead to me getting a bit defensive about it.

There will definitely be some interludes about interactions between the Salamanders and mortals now that both are part of the Imperium.
 
@DragonParadox
One little request, could we get a report on Trios?

It has been years since the Wax Golem started to change them into a less religious, more philosophical direcgion to avoid issues with Yss, how did that go?
 
Ok I have been looking at the stats for the efritee and they can grant three wishes a day. Sure they can't give it to another genie but they have plenty of slaves to wish for them.

And shitan have no wish granting at all.


How are the efreeti not totally dominating this war, because they could essentially create resources and soldiers out of thin air even with just the usage wish in the spellcasting sense.

I am sure that this question must have been asked before, but I don't remember the answer.
 
Ok I have been looking at the stats for the efritee and they can grant three wishes a day. Sure they can't give it to another genie but they have plenty of slaves to wish for them.

And shitan have no wish granting at all.


How are the efreeti not totally dominating this war, because they could essentially create resources and soldiers out of thin air even with just the usage wish in the spellcasting sense.

I am sure that this question must have been asked before, but I don't remember the answer.
Shaitan and Djinn are actually capable granting Wishes as well. Typically they are not as common as Efreeti capable of granting Wishes, but for this quest I believe the ability is ubiquitous among all three types.

The reason all of them don't make heavy use of their Wish ability is that it's a shared cultural taboo across all strains of Genie. I guess it's seen as roughly akin to whoring yourself out to gutter trash for a few pennies.

I think the only place we've seen it used in this manner was a few Efreeti who had been enslaved by other Efreeti to make them use their Wishes in this manner, and it was viewed as criminal even by the regular Efreeti.
 
Shaitan and Djinn are actually capable granting Wishes as well. Typically they are not as common as Efreeti capable of granting Wishes, but for this quest I believe the ability is ubiquitous among all three types.

The reason all of them don't make heavy use of their Wish ability is that it's a shared cultural taboo across all strains of Genie. I guess it's seen as roughly akin to whoring yourself out to gutter trash for a few pennies.

I think the only place we've seen it used in this manner was a few Efreeti who had been enslaved by other Efreeti to make them use their Wishes in this manner, and it was viewed as criminal even by the regular Efreeti.
They also have a much lower limit. I don't think any of them can grant more than one wish a year here.
 
Shaitan and Djinn are actually capable granting Wishes as well. Typically they are not as common as Efreeti capable of granting Wishes, but for this quest I believe the ability is ubiquitous among all three types.

The reason all of them don't make heavy use of their Wish ability is that it's a shared cultural taboo across all strains of Genie. I guess it's seen as roughly akin to whoring yourself out to gutter trash for a few pennies.

I think the only place we've seen it used in this manner was a few Efreeti who had been enslaved by other Efreeti to make them use their Wishes in this manner, and it was viewed as criminal even by the regular Efreeti.
Shaitan and Djinn are actually capable granting Wishes as well. Typically they are not as common as Efreeti capable of granting Wishes, but for this quest I believe the ability is ubiquitous among all three types.

The reason all of them don't make heavy use of their Wish ability is that it's a shared cultural taboo across all strains of Genie. I guess it's seen as roughly akin to whoring yourself out to gutter trash for a few pennies.

I think the only place we've seen it used in this manner was a few Efreeti who had been enslaved by other Efreeti to make them use their Wishes in this manner, and it was viewed as criminal even by the regular Efreeti.
The sultan does not seem like the kind of guy that would be stopped by social taboos. He is almost a stereotypical tyrant.


And I would imagine the genies would still use that during a war. Since that is a pretty useful thing in a war.
 
Interlude MCCXXXVII: Ministerial Matters
Ministerial Matters

Third Day of the Twelfth Month 294 AC

The strangest part about having tea with a devil Menel Goldentooth realized was not the slitted gaze that shone the color of old gold like a lost coin from the bottom of a well, and it was not the shiver that went down his spine whenever pale clawed hands moved a little too quick. Rather it was the odd realization that the devil, this devil swathed in the dark crimson robes of ministerial power, had a sweet tooth. Devils were supposed to have a taste for blood and tears, not fine white cane sugar. Of course there were probably quite a few citizens who would rather pay Izku in mere blood, preferably someone else's blood, than the coin his ministry asked for...

"How goes the saga of the protocol taxes, Your Excellency?" the Minister of Trade asked lightly. "Have the reputable lords of the west found more arguments, or better legal counsel?"

"More arguments, yes," Izku laughed darkly. "The way a blind monkey unable to climb trees will stumble over many pieces of rotten fruit to present one. It is quite astonishing when one thinks about it how much the dignity of their ancient lines is worth when one brings out the scales."

He was not, Menel knew, making a jest about the nobility of Westeros being worthless. 'Protocol taxes' were an idea House Dayne had stumbled over in an effort to make up for the fact that local tax actually had to show some good to the citizens paying them and not just to the coffers of their lord. The reasoning went that if one's lord could not represent their subjects with honor, why then all would suffer from the loss of trade, the loss of opportunity, the loss of consideration... and part of that honor was the show of wealth.

House Dayne had made its case and had proven it, spawning a whole slew of imitators who thought they would only have to show that they lacked this or that feather in their hat to be able to lay arbitrary local taxes. Of course things were not so easy. Andrew Dayne had actually shown the way in which his particular tax had been put towards the public good, had shown deals with trade magnates for good rates and contracts with the Orphne Fey. Most of the other Houses who simply wanted rather than needed an extra revenue stream had been doing far more poorly. Trotting out one's poor relations before a magistrate to try and make the point about the destitution of one's House had turned a few Westerlander families, chief among them the Westerlings of the Crag, into the butt of japes from Pyke to King's Landing.

A cup clicked on its place. "I did not come here only to hear tales of entertaining failures, Your Excellence," the Minister of Trade interjected after the most recent anecdote wound down. "What do you think of a forest tax? That is to say, a local tax on the use of dead wood and lumber that is to be levied in place of the old duties and whose proceeds are to go into maintaining the health of the woods? Duke Redwyne has approached me with the notion in principle on behalf of some of his vassals."

"Of course," Izku's tone was dry as one imagined the parched heart of Hell to be. Most proposals from that quarter came in that form so that something rejected out of hand would not reflect upon the high lords themselves. "Well in principle I see no issue with it so long as a reasonable portion of those funds actually goes towards the stated purpose."

It was something of a sore point with him that trusted auditors who were accustomed to the ways of the Sunset Lands were yet scarce on the ground and he could not justify looking into minor-to-middling graft. It was not that Izku thought he could do away with all graft and corruption, but he preferred to prune it closer to the ground than it currently grew.

"I suspect there are going to be quite a few development loans taken with forestry in mind," Menel explained. "It makes for an easier sell than crop diversification and you can just leave the trees to grow with far less tending, at least so long as the local fey are happy..."

"Abiding by the law of the land does not require happiness," the devil noted absently. "All fey sworn to the throne are to be mindful of the interests of their mortal neighbors."

"As you say," Menel nodded, though he knew enough of the cunning of the spirit-kin to be quite sure that most lords would be better served not counting solely on the royal oath to get the aid they might need. "Have you had any thoughts on the inclusion of banks in the new business three year tax break? They do not produce any novel goods, but it is a novel service..."

"What they produce is the opportunity for fraud on a yet uneducated populace," Izku countered. "All well and good to entourage growth, but not at the cost of much of that growth being poisonous weeds."

Financial Assistance 30 (Success)

Do you encourage or discourage the formation of new local banks in Westeros?

[] Encourage, more local creditors means more growth for those who would otherwise struggle to get a loan

[] Discourage, scams or even simply failed banks could harm public confidence far more than they help


OOC: Sorry this took so long, the subject matter is rather dry, hopefully the discussion format helped make it interesting and pulled double duty for some characterization for the Ministers.
 
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The sultan does not seem like the kind of guy that would be stopped by social taboos. He is almost a stereotypical tyrant.


And I would imagine the genies would still use that during a war. Since that is a pretty useful thing in a war.

There are some cultural taboos even someone like him does not dare trample openly lest they face rebellion. Forcing free genies to grant wishes against their will is that serious
 
Ministerial Matters

Third Day of the Twelfth Month 294 AC

The strangest part about having tea with a devil, Menel Goldentooth realized, was not the slit gaze that shone the color of old gold like a lost coin from the bottom of a well, and it was not the shiver that went down his spine whenever pale clawed hands moved a little too quick. Rather, it was the odd realization that the devil, this devil, swathed in the dark crimson robes of ministerial power, had a sweet tooth. Devils were supposed to have a taste for blood and tears, not fine white cane sugar. Of course, there were probably quite a few citizens who would rather pay Izku in mere blood, preferably someone else's blood, than the coin his ministry asked for...

"How goes the saga of the protocol taxes, Your Excelency?" the Minister of Trade asked lightly. "Have the reputable lords of the west found more arguments, or better legal counsel?"

"More arguments, yes," Izku laughed darkly. "The way a blind monkey unable to climb trees will stumble over many pieces of rotten fruit to present one. It is quite astonishing when one thinks about it, how much the dignity of their ancient lines is worth when one brings out the scales."

He was not, Menel knew, making a jest about the nobility of Westeros being worthless. 'Protocol taxes' were an idea House Dayne had stumbled over in an effort to make up for the fact that local tax actually had to show some good to the citizens paying them and not just to the coffers of their lord. The reasoning went that if one's lord could not represent their subjects with honor, why then all would suffer from the loss of trade, the loss of opportunity, the loss of consideration... and part of that honor was the show of wealth.

House Dayne had made its case and it had proven it spawning a whole skew of imitators who thought they would only have to show that they lacked this or that feather in their hat to be able to lay arbitrary local taxes. Of course, things were not so easy. Andrew Dayne had actually shown the way in which his particular tax had been put towards the public good. He had shown deals with trade magnates for good rates and contracts with the Orphne Fey. Most of the other houses who simply wanted rather than needed an extra revenue stream had been doing far more poorly. Trotting out one's poor relations before a magistrate to try to make the point about the destitution of one's House had turned a few Westerlander families, chief among them the Westerlings of the Crag, into the butt of japes from Pyke to King's Landing.

A cup clicked on its place. "I did not come here only to hear tales of entertaining failure, Your Excellence," the Minister of Trade interjected after the most recent anecdote wound down. "What do you think of a forest tax, that is to say a local tax on the use of dead wood and lumber that is to be levied in place of the old duties and whose proceeds are to go into mentaining the health of the woods? Duke Redwyne has approached me with the notion in principle on behalf of some of his vassals."

"Of course," Izku's tone was dry as one imagined the parched heart of Hell to be. Most proposals from that quarter came in that form so that something rejected out of hand would not reflect upon the high lords themselves. "Well, in principle I see no issue with it so long as a reasonable portion of those funds actually goes towards the stated purpose."

It was something of a sore point with him that trusted auditors who were accustomed to the ways of the Sunset Lands were yet scarce on the ground and he could not justify looking into minor-to-middling graft. It was not that Izku thought he could do away with all graft and corruption, but he preferred to prune it closer to the ground that it currently grew.

"I suspect there are going to be quite a few development loans taken with forestry in mind," Menel explained. "It makes for an easier sell than crop diversification, and you can just leave the trees to grow with far less tending, at least so long as the local fey are happy...

"Abiding by the law of the land does not require happiness," the devil noted absently. "All fey sworn to the throne are to be mindful of the interests of their mortal neighbors."

"As you say," Menel nodded, though he knew enough of the cunning of the spirit kin to be quite sure that most lords would be better served not counting solely on the royal oath to get the aid they might need. "Have you had any thoughts on the inclusion of banks in the new business three year tax break. They do not produce any novel goods, but it is a novel service..."

"What they produce is the opportunity for fraud on a yet uneducated populace," Izku countered. "All well and good to entourage growth, but not at the cost of much of that growth being poisonous weeds."

Financial Assistance 30 (Success)

Do you encourage or discourage the formation of new local banks on Westeros?

[] Encourage, more local creditors means more growth for those who would otherwise struggle to get a loan

[] Discourage, scams or even simply failed banks could harm public confidence far more than they help


OOC: Sorry this took so long, the subject matter is rather dry, hopefully the discussion format helped make it interesting and pulled double duty for some characterization for the Ministers. Not yet edited.
Here's an edited version of the chapter, DP.
 
There are some cultural taboos even someone like him does not dare trample openly lest they face rebellion. Forcing free genies to grant wishes against their will is that serious
It doesn't have to be coerced tho.

Imagine a situation like this.

Efreeti A- Our position is about to overrun by a shitan flying column. What shall we ever do.

Efreeti B- OH I know, I wish that a completely nonmagical rock hits their ward stone at supersonic speed, starting outside their wards range.

Efreeti A- oh yeah, make sense. Wish granted.

Shitan force explodes.
 
I'm with Izku on this one.

[X] Discourage, scams or even simply failed banks could harm public confidence far more than they help
 
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