We are a bit short on time to cause a few unfortunate accidents. That's it. That's the the one reason why we can't.
I am suddenly looking forward to when we have that time.

"Oh what a surprise they appear to have died of natural causes."

"Yep they fell down several flights of stairs while landing on some poisoned daggers 100% natural."

"One for each step."
 
Ok, but you have now lost on me on why we should start a military program in which our soldiers take longer to train to hopefully achieve a result with some clear and present weaknesses.

I'm just not seeing a need for a Company worth of werewolves, let alone a full Legion.

I mean, I get you. I still want some Dread Sayonna soldiers, because I think that would be awesome, but I'm not seeing any particular reason to put effort into making them, when we have so many other options. So I don't push for them. (The one thing that would convince me is if Wylla decided that she wants to go back to undeath, now with her sanity intact, and doing the research primarily for her.)
Mostly because it's cheap and it can be handled in the back ground. Like it enhances our capacities of violence but doesn't take too much narrative space aside for a interlude or two if DP felt like it. It's a low hanging fruit.
 
I am suddenly looking forward to when we have that time.

"Oh what a surprise they appear to have died of natural causes."

"Yep they fell down several flights of stairs while landing on some poisoned daggers 100% natural."

"One for each step."
My spite does not extend to their physical suffering, only their emotional resonance with the emotion of shame.

If they are incapable of feeling even that much, they are basically not even people who we should menace and gloat over, like Tywin. They are parasites to be removed.

I really hope that they give us an excuse, I want to have no detractors IC over our removal of House Tyrell. I want the people of Westeros to applaud that choice as much as the thread does.
 
My spite does not extend to their physical suffering, only their emotional resonance with the emotion of shame.

If they are incapable of feeling even that much, they are basically not even people who we should menace and gloat over, like Tywin. They are parasites to be removed.

I really hope that they give us an excuse, I want to have no detractors IC over our removal of House Tyrell. I want the people of Westeros to applaud that choice as much as the thread does.
Dude you are being really dehumanizing and it's getting uncomfortable.
 
Mostly because it's cheap and it can be handled in the back ground. Like it enhances our capacities of violence but doesn't take too much narrative space aside for a interlude or two if DP felt like it. It's a low hanging fruit.
No. It isn't. I'm already annoyed enough every time the few thousand quantum-minotaurs manifest out of thin air wherever the Legion is. I'm not going to consent to add quantum-werewolves to that for no reason at all, except one player thinking it would be neat.
 
I am pretty sure you can learn to control the animal side through extensive training. Which I think would be less expensive than potentially a Pretorian. But it depends on how do wants to implement them. I would say that the longer training time should be a viable substitute for low material cost. But again that up to the author. We can whip up a pretorian in a month and I would say it should take the werewolves at least 4 months. So they could be cheap but be a trouble to raise up quickly. Add that to the loss of control issues on and near moonrise and I think that is enough of a balanced enhancement that we can adopt en mass but not spam due to the downside which I think is the perfect sweet spot to add to the story.
I like the idea of easy enhancements, but werewolves/bears probably aren't the best way to go. If you look at the rules for their alternate form SU it specifies that any equipment that doesn't fit the new form gets dropped on transformation.

Out of the box they'd be weaker and less versatile in bear shape; we'd need to redesign our equipment to accommodate the shift. Retooling all that industry would be expensive, and I bet the new stuff we came up with would be more expensive or less effective as a result of its new features.

Like most forms of cheap power, the drawbacks to were-creatures outweigh the benefits at scale and in the long term.
 
No. It isn't. I'm already annoyed enough every time the few thousand quantum-minotaurs manifest out of thin air wherever the Legion is. I'm not going to consent to add quantum-werewolves to that for no reason at all, except one player thinking it would be neat.
I am not asking you to do anything. I am discussing adding it to the vote next time as a research project or an minor action.
 
No. It isn't. I'm already annoyed enough every time the few thousand quantum-minotaurs manifest out of thin air wherever the Legion is. I'm not going to consent to add quantum-werewolves to that for no reason at all, except one player thinking it would be neat.
For the record, I think most of us are on board for never bringing Minotaurs to mass combat again, just to also not to have to experience any complaints about the plausibility of their impact on the battlefield. I never got the impression most of us were attached to their role in the legion.
 
I like the idea of easy enhancements, but werewolves/bears probably aren't the best way to go. If you look at the rules for their alternate form SU it specifies that any equipment that doesn't fit the new form gets dropped on transformation.

Out of the box they'd be weaker and less versatile in bear shape; we'd need to redesign our equipment to accommodate the shift. Retooling all that industry would be expensive, and I bet the new stuff we came up with would be more expensive or less effective as a result of its new features.

Like most forms of cheap power, the drawbacks to were-creatures outweigh the benefits at scale and in the long term.
That could be a valid reason sure. But I figure we should do a research action to check out the viability. And i wouldn't dismiss DR 10 and three attacks to be all that weaker.
 
I am not asking you to do anything. I am discussing adding it to the vote next time as a research project or an minor action.
Yes. You want to add them in a quantum state of just kinda being there, even though none of the Legion write-ups mention them. Or alternatively, the motion passes and someone has to figure out what to actually do with that project of yours. Which will either be @egoo tracking their numbers or me having to write up a military unit and trying to come up with something useful for them to do. Which, again, I don't see anything for.

For the record, I think most of us are on board for never bringing Minotaurs to mass combat again, just to also not to have to experience any complaints about the plausibility of their impact on the battlefield. I never got the impression most of us were attached to their role in the legion.
Yeah. Yeah. Got the message. I'm annoying people with talking about the minotaurs. Shutting up and doing something else now.
 
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Yes. You want to add them in a quantum state of just kinda being there, even though none of the Legion write-ups mention them. Or alternatively, the motion passes and someone has to figure out what to actually do with that project of yours. Which will either be @egoo tracking their numbers or me having to write up a military unit and trying to come up with something useful for them to do. Which, again, I don't see anything for.
I could do the write if that's the part that bugs you. Can't be that hard.

As for figuring out something for them to do, it's pretty simple. They do the same kind of things that the pretorians would do, but be weaker and cheaper. Kind of a like the cadians from warhammer. They are not space marines but fullfil similar roles as need be. I don't imagine us having enough pretorians numbers to cover every spot their ability might be needed.
 
I could do the write if that's the part that bugs you. Can't be that hard.

As for figuring out something for them to do, it's pretty simple. They do the same kind of things that the pretorians would do, but be weaker and cheaper. Kind of a like the cadians from warhammer. They are not space marines but fullfil similar roles as need be. I don't imagine us having enough pretorians numbers to cover every spot their ability might be needed.
We don't really have a shortage in Praetori though. What we have a shortage on is enough crafting capacity to equip them.

If all we needed was some DR and a few natural attacks, then we would be fleshforging something for the job. Or raise some undead. Mass producing CR 6-ish creatures is a solved problem. Again. The reason I'm not pushing for Dread Sayonnas is that it's wastes research capacity to get one more option in an area that is saturated with them.
 
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We don't really have a shortage in Praetori though. What we have a shortage on is enough crafting capacity to equip them.

If all we needed was some DR and a few natural attacks, then we would be fleshforging something for the job. Or raise some undead. Mass producing CR 6-ish creatures is a solved problem.
True, that why specified it was about enhancing the legion portion of our army. I do realise the flesh forge can make arbitrarily large numbers of murder beasts. But I though it prudent to have a non flesshforged murder beast if someone figured out a sympathetic curse of some kind. Which I know we would have worse problem to deal with at that point, but it is still a worthwhile project that would cost us very little and be a contingency against a very bad scenario.
 
That could be a valid reason sure. But I figure we should do a research action to check out the viability. And i wouldn't dismiss DR 10 and three attacks to be all that weaker.
That's damage resistance that can be cut through with a common metal. If we industrialize werewolves then anyone capable of standing up to them will industrialize silver weapons.

Even if that doesn't become a problem, they still go from AC 25 to AC 18 and lose their weapons at minimum. That means they lose any special weapon material properties and have a lower to hit bonus for all three of those attacks.

DR with an easily exploited weakness and extra attacks aren't worth getting hit more often and missing more frequently. This is especially true when it starts interfering with the tactics that make individual legionaries effective soldiers.

We're better off finding exploitable mass buffing spells like the family of spells based off of Insignia of Alarm if we're seriously going to look into enhancing base legionnaires more.
 
That's damage resistance that can be cut through with a common metal. If we industrialize werewolves then anyone capable of standing up to them will industrialize silver weapons.

Even if that doesn't become a problem, they still go from AC 25 to AC 18 and lose their weapons at minimum. That means they lose any special weapon material properties and have a lower to hit bonus for all three of those attacks.

DR with an easily exploited weakness and extra attacks aren't worth getting hit more often and missing more frequently. This is especially true when it starts interfering with the tactics that make individual legionaries effective soldiers.

We're better off finding exploitable mass buffing spells like the family of spells based off of Insignia of Alarm if we're seriously going to look into enhancing base legionnaires more.
I would happy to do the second thing as well. The werewolves just seemed like the cheapest option we can acces for the legion.
 
I would happy to do the second thing as well. The werewolves just seemed like the cheapest option we can acces for the legion.
I don't mean to keep hammering on the point, but the "you get what you pay for" principle is in full effect here. Werewolves are impressive when fighting unprepared NPCs in small groups. They aren't really built for mass combat and have critical weaknesses that make them a bad addition to a PC once you get out of the minor leagues.

It's like buying a $500 car out of someone's driveway; you're almost certainly going to spend more making it work in the long run than you saved on the initial purchase.
 
We're better off finding exploitable mass buffing spells like the family of spells based off of Insignia of Alarm if we're seriously going to look into enhancing base legionnaires more.
While the other spells are a bit more niche in use, this one is Companion grade cheese: Insignia of Warding – Spell – D&D Tools
A +1 to AC and Fort isn't much, but it's a divine bonus and those are extremely hard to get.

Another one that would be really nice for the Lawmen or the Inquisition: Skyline Runner – Spell – D&D Tools
 
I don't mean to keep hammering on the point, but the "you get what you pay for" principle is in full effect here. Werewolves are impressive when fighting unprepared NPCs in small groups. They aren't really built for mass combat and have critical weaknesses that make them a bad addition to a PC once you get out of the minor leagues.

It's like buying a $500 car out of someone's driveway; you're almost certainly going to spend more making it work in the long run than you saved on the initial purchase.
True, I will give up on the werewolf thing then
 
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