Remove ads

A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

Reader mode
[X] Goldfish

We may want to also work on getting provencial armies up and in motion. That way we have a nice home Gard to keep watch over our land.
 
Speed53066 said:
So if we declare war, are we stripping the garasions go get the men nessary to invade people?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We'll have enough men to go to war, but the Legion isn't really more than a peacekeeping and defensive force, anyway. Maybe that'll change once weapons become more dangerous than the men who wield them, but that's not here nor there. That, and to be truthful, we would need fewer combat troops at that point, and more men in logistic roles to account for the fact that each extremely trained, well-equipped modern warrior requires a multitude of support staff to be viable in the field.
 
Crake said:
We'll have enough men to go to war, but the Legion isn't really more than a peacekeeping and defensive force, anyway. Maybe that'll change once weapons become more dangerous than the men who wield them, but that's not here nor there. That, and to be truthful, we would need fewer combat troops at that point, and more men in logistic roles to account for the fact that each extremely trained, well-equipped modern warrior requires a multitude of support staff to be viable in the field.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Eventually the Legions will be blooded enough that we might be able to rework them into having PC levels instead of NPC levels, but that's years and half a dozen major wars down the line. In the meantime we can deck them out with Imperial Steel.
 
DragonParadox said:
"There are checks on a lord's power, his vassals, his people, his neighbors, there are no checks upon a sorcerer lord's, or so she believes after having seen the wreck of Valyira. A system that hinges upon a single leaver shall break upon that leaver, after having learned of the Empire That was before all Empires." The mage's gaze pierces yours measuring. "If an empire built upon heaven's own foundations could break with it than why not one built upon the powers of dragons?"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This line of questioning is pretty nonsensical. The Imperium is most decidedly not resting on the power of anything, but on a consensus among sub-polities and the population at large.
Which is, you know, basic political science.

[X] Plan He Should Have Studied Politics
-[X] The idea that a sorcerer lords power is wholly unrestrained is laughable. A knight in heavy armor surrounded by his men at arms might be nothing compared to a powerful mage, but to the smallfolk, they are equally unassailable in their personal power. Yet evidence shows that the knight can't rule by fear alone, no matter how many have tried to do so. His power to compel others to act by force is limited by the reach of his blade. Likewise, the sorcerer is limited by what spells he can threaten his subjects with. To rule like this is to rule over slaves who will only obey as long as the whip is cracked at them and the state of Essos and Slavers Bay shows how well such systems work.
-[X] To rule means to act in accordance with an often unspoken consensus between those governing and those governed. The governed will obey the commands of the governing as long as those are seen as legitimate in the frame of a societal agreements. A Legionnaire obeys his officer, because the officer has been imbued with the royal authority to give his commands. A citizen will obey the lawmen because they have been imbued with the authority to enforce the laws. But this authority rests on the royal authority being seen as legitimate by the governed and the system can only work as long as that is given.
-[X] The Imperium works because both the absorbed governments and the population of these entities have been convinced that the actions of the Imperium at large are beneficial to them, the laws just and their application fair. If the people assumed that the lawmen were enforcing the laws unfairly, they would disobey them. If they thought the courts ruled unfairly, they would avoid the judgement of the courts. If they thought the orders of their leader were not in their own interest, they would see to subvert and twist them. Force can be used to force compliance anyway, but said force requires compliance in turn. A sorcerer lord can't stand behind every lawman, every court and every governor to back up their orders with violence. Those institution would be worthless if that had to be done. Even the sorcerer has to rely on regular people to buy into the idea of his authority and to enforce it for him.
-[X] The Empire of the Dawn broke because it was invaded by foreign powers seeking to sunder it. The Valyrian Freehold broke because a catastrophe destroyed the centralized leadership that kept it together in a single moment. If he thinks that Tywin Lannisters rule could survive to see Lannisport burned down by Daemons and Casterly Rock being turned to rubble by a cataclysmic explosion, indulge in some honest laughter. If you were to look for an empire that was not sundered by cataclysm, one has only to look at Yi-Ti, which still exists after millennia, even though it has a history of strife and civil war like any other realm.
-[X] Long story short, to assume that the Imperium rests on the direct power of it's ruler shows a stunning lack of understanding of the forces and rules of government. It would be impossible to forge a realm covering half a continent on the basis of fear and violence alone. You do however understand why self-important Westerosi Lords like Lanna would think otherwise, what with their love of reducing the history of the world to singular acts of "great people" and turning the population at large and the means of government into window dressings of their tales.
 
Last edited:
Azel said:
This line of questioning is pretty nonsensical. The Imperium is most decidedly not resting on the power of anything, but on a consensus among sub-polities and the population at large.
Which is, you know, basic political science.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I was pretty annoyed by it, too. It felt like a "but you're too centralized and too powerful" argument, when that's kind of the point of the Imperium in the first place? Centralized power to weld together dozens of different cultures under one banner for mutually assured protection. You'd think an archmaester would grasp that instead of being hung up on potential abuse of power.
 
Duesal said:
I was pretty annoyed by it, too. It felt like a "but you're too centralized and too powerful" argument, when that's kind of the point of the Imperium in the first place? Centralized power to weld together dozens of different cultures under one banner for mutually assured protection. You'd think an archmaester would grasp that instead of being hung up on potential abuse of power.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He might just be looking to confirm that Viserys is aware how exactly the realm he is building is working. You can easily make the case that some rulers, even those with nice epitaphs, did not. Alexander the Great certainly didn't, as evident by the fact that his realm didn't survive him by a single day. Likewise, Genghis Khan conquered the largest empire in the history of the world, but it imploded within just 100 years since it never managed to forge any lasting ties with it's own population.

Which is why the Imperium will last. It is already building institutions and forging a shared narrative that ties everything together. Mass media and propaganda are far better tools to keep a realm together then even Miracle spells. Even if Sorcerers Deep and everyone within was wiped from the map tomorrow, you would already get a succession war over who becomes the new head of the Imperium as opposed to the realm just disintegrating. The institutions we erected and the narrative we hammered into the peoples skull is already a too valuable tool to discard it. Odds are, it would turn into a war between the Sealord and Zherys, both claiming the Imperator title for themselves.
 
Azel said:
He might just be looking to confirm that Viserys is aware how exactly the realm he is building is working. You can easily make the case that some rulers, even those with nice epitaphs, did not. Alexander the Great certainly didn't, as evident by the fact that his realm didn't survive him by a single day. Likewise, Genghis Khan conquered the largest empire in the history of the world, but it imploded within just 100 years since it never managed to forge any lasting ties with it's own population.

Which is why the Imperium will last. It is already building institutions and forging a shared narrative that ties everything together. Mass media and propaganda are far better tools to keep a realm together then even Miracle spells. Even if Sorcerers Deep and everyone within was wiped from the map tomorrow, you would already get a succession war over who becomes the new head of the Imperium as opposed to the realm just disintegrating. The institutions we erected and the narrative we hammered into the peoples skull is already a too valuable tool to discard it. Odds are, it would turn into a war between the Sealord and Zherys, both claiming the Imperator title for themselves.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Let's be real, as much as the Sealord is a bro, Zherys would come out on top in that war. He's a Dragonlord of the Eighth Circle.

I like to think they'd all be very reluctant to fight each other and the Sealord would cut a deal of recognizing Zherys as Imperator in exchange for additional trade benefits for Braavos or something.

Zherys' bigger challenge would be wrangling all the Devils sworn to Viserys. None of those oaths transfer to the next head of the Imperium.
 
Duesal said:
Let's be real, as much as the Sealord is a bro, Zherys would come out on top in that war. He's a Dragonlord of the Eighth Circle.

I like to think they'd all be very reluctant to fight each other and the Sealord would cut a deal of recognizing Zherys as Imperator in exchange for additional trade benefits for Braavos or something.

Zherys' bigger challenge would be wrangling all the Devils sworn to Viserys. None of those oaths transfer to the next head of the Imperium.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Luckily, most of them would die in the removal of SD.

Also, he might luck out and have Qyburn and Elaheh willing to work with him, as opposed to them making their own show in the Basilisk Isles.
 
I don't think Zherys has the ability to rule Western Essos based on reputation or conviction.

Could he rule it? He could get a figleaf's agreement, presumably. But he would not have the ability to just send people to a more developed region, and just tell them to change some policy with basically no compromise on the exact way it is carried out. He could definitely strive to gain authority over it... but he's just, you know, not Viserys Targaryen. He doesn't have the narrative backing him up. A good deal of our ability to restructure and reshape the world around us is heavily leaning into the idea that we just have the right to do so, and no one really has the right to contradict us.
 
[X] Azel

Well that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was thinking about the Provence's have some type of army is due to researching a bit about the Byzantine Strgitos and how they were able to keep the empire together even though they have the super Arabian states right next door.
 
Crake said:
I don't think Zherys has the ability to rule Western Essos based on reputation or conviction.

Could he rule it? He could get a figleaf's agreement, presumably. But he would not have the ability to just send people to a more developed region, and just tell them to change some policy with basically no compromise on the exact way it is carried out. He could definitely strive to gain authority over it... but he's just, you know, not Viserys Targaryen. He doesn't have the narrative backing him up. A good deal of our ability to restructure and reshape the world around us is heavily leaning into the idea that we just have the right to do so, and no one really has the right to contradict us.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Pretty much. A lot of our hype is built around the idea that Viserys is effectively a divinely appointed saviour who can not err and whose authority supersedes all worldly concerns.

Zherys would have to work hard to get that going for him.

It's more likely that the Imperium would turn into something looking a lot like the HRE, with Braavos, Volantis, Myr, Mantarys, Tolos and Gogossos becoming the electors.
 
Crake said:
I don't think Zherys has the ability to rule Western Essos based on reputation or conviction.

Could he rule it? He could get a figleaf's agreement, presumably. But he would not have the ability to just send people to a more developed region, and just tell them to change some policy with basically no compromise on the exact way it is carried out. He could definitely strive to gain authority over it... but he's just, you know, not Viserys Targaryen. He doesn't have the narrative backing him up. A good deal of our ability to restructure and reshape the world around us is heavily leaning into the idea that we just have the right to do so, and no one really has the right to contradict us.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He's not Viserys, no, but in the event of Viserys, the Companions, and everything in Sorcerer's Deep getting wiped off the map, he's one of the most powerful PCs left alive in the Imperium. He might not necessarily have the narrative "right" to go around and reorder the world, but he's charismatic and powerful and definitely capable of compromise when necessary. After all, he was the one who approached us to avoid the Imperium and Volantis going to war.

If something like this happened, the remnants of the Imperium would have an emergency council, and they'd decide amongst themselves:

1) Do they even stay together? And the answer here is yes, purely for defensive reasons. United they stand, divided they're picked off one by one, especially in wake of a cataclysm like that.
2) Who becomes the next Imperator? Like @Azel said, the two biggest candidates are the Sealord and Zherys mostly due to their two cities being the biggest and richest in the Imperium in wake of the death of Sorcerer's Deep. A civil war is something nobody would be happy about given all the enemies at the gates, so they'd just swallow their pride and anger and elect a new Imperator from amongst themselves.
Azel said:
Pretty much. A lot of our hype is built around the idea that Viserys is effectively a divinely appointed saviour who can not err and whose authority supersedes all worldly concerns.

Zherys would have to work hard to get that going for him.

It's more likely that the Imperium would turn into something looking a lot like the HRE, with Braavos, Volantis, Myr, Mantarys, Tolos and Gogossos becoming the electors.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Imperium turning into an HRE would be the most likely scenario. Cue Elector Counts with Runefangs carved by one of Lya's wayward apprentices who happened to survive the second Doom.
 
The idea of a WMD scenario definitely makes me seriously consider having some policy about not having the entire royal family in one location at any time, just to neatly deal with succession crisis issues. It would make family gatherings require a little finesse, but a couple people teleconferencing in via MirrorVision isn't that big of a deal.
 
[X] Azel

To be fair to the people who react like this guy, I think we underestimate the mystique of magic in a world that doesn't have decades of mass media turning it into casual entertainment. It's sort of like the difference between a DnD god and what the average Westerosi thinks a god is.

The real power of a mage is less relevant to their emotional reactions than the perception of "sorcerer lords" as mad geniuses who tap into a force bigger than any mortal and who suffer almost as much as they profit from it.

That feeling of vast and inscrutable power can easily lead to the conclusion that magical ability is all that matters, even in people who should know better.
 
Speed53066 said:
[X] Azel

Well that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was thinking about the Provence's have some type of army is due to researching a bit about the Byzantine Strgitos and how they were able to keep the empire together even though they have the super Arabian states right next door.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is a complex matter, but the short answer:
The Byzantine system was created since technological, fiscal and political constraints made the Roman legion system untenable to adequately secure the realms borders, and it came at the cost of giving every Thaemos the ability to have armed opinions about the ruler in Constantinople.

Our situation is very different in pretty much all aspects.
 
Crake said:
The idea of a WMD scenario definitely makes me seriously consider having some policy about not having the entire royal family in one location at any time, just to neatly deal with succession crisis issues. It would make family gatherings require a little finesse, but a couple people teleconferencing in via MirrorVision isn't that big of a deal.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We don't have enough royal family for that yet though. Unless you want to set Lya to start making those 20 sons and daughters?
 
Azel said:
We don't have enough royal family for that yet though. Unless you want to set Lya to start making those 20 sons and daughters?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not quite yet. I guess that's a future concern. For one thing, Emps definitely warded the fuck out of his Lunar gene labs and they STILL got yoinked.

I want security measures at least twice as paranoid as one transhuman megamind can come up with... on the fake location for them.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top