A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
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Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Well, most people don't have the Herculean resolve necessary not to forget their convictions and not to bend to convenience and circumstance.
Viserys won't take the easy route, or stoop to over-indulgence, simply because he knows that way lies the path to ruin for not only himself, but everyone else.
We aren't just making a system that topples automatically without us at the head... but as @Duesal pointed out, our empire is no more likely to outlast us than any podunk little undeveloped, superstitious and generally idiotic fiefdom the warlords of Westeros control is likely to outlive their current lord at this rate.
The question Marwyn and Lanna might truly be asking @DragonParadox did not expound upon adequately, is not if Viserys is necessary now (he almost certainly is) but if he will be necessary even a century from now, with most of the recent crop of existential threats mostly held at bay and some breathing room gained. If, for any reason, we were given reason to believe we could abuse our unilateral power, by that point not much could stop us.
But that's a bit batty and crazy to ask, because I can't envisage a time in a thousand year timeline where we can relax and let up on our ethics and phone it in on building stronger and stronger institutions around us.
What we're doing is justified on a large enough timescale as to be irrelevant for most people's concerns, even long-lived archmages and champions who expect to not die except in battle maybe a couple thousand years from now at the earliest. I expect we will still be somewhat necessary even if we permanently eliminated several of the threats currently hounding everyone living in Planetos.
Viserys won't take the easy route, or stoop to over-indulgence, simply because he knows that way lies the path to ruin for not only himself, but everyone else.
We aren't just making a system that topples automatically without us at the head... but as @Duesal pointed out, our empire is no more likely to outlast us than any podunk little undeveloped, superstitious and generally idiotic fiefdom the warlords of Westeros control is likely to outlive their current lord at this rate.
The question Marwyn and Lanna might truly be asking @DragonParadox did not expound upon adequately, is not if Viserys is necessary now (he almost certainly is) but if he will be necessary even a century from now, with most of the recent crop of existential threats mostly held at bay and some breathing room gained. If, for any reason, we were given reason to believe we could abuse our unilateral power, by that point not much could stop us.
But that's a bit batty and crazy to ask, because I can't envisage a time in a thousand year timeline where we can relax and let up on our ethics and phone it in on building stronger and stronger institutions around us.
What we're doing is justified on a large enough timescale as to be irrelevant for most people's concerns, even long-lived archmages and champions who expect to not die except in battle maybe a couple thousand years from now at the earliest. I expect we will still be somewhat necessary even if we permanently eliminated several of the threats currently hounding everyone living in Planetos.
- Location
- United States
Fortunately for us we can point to our track record, and the less than stellar track record of our enemies.
Under our reign slavery in Western Essos has been strangled, people are happier and safer and healthier than they've ever been in living memory, etc.
If he's worried about abuses of nobility in general, we are having laws in place to curtail that sort of thing.
If he's worried about the dangers of an absolute monarchy, specifically us being in charge of everything, well, he's just going to have to live with that.
The main issue is the Imperium is too young and thus currently brittle. If Viserys and the Companions die now, the provinces would probably split up again Century of Blood style. I can totally see Zherys splitting off Volantis and probably making some form of non-aggression pact with Relath and Yrael. Zherys is powerful, but we've clearly seen he doesn't make unnecessary enemies.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Honestly, we are under more threat than Marwyn if we abuse our powers. We are binding very powerful people together under the predication that we won't do that, and we will act in their best interest. In exchange, we get broad authority over most things and dictate policy at the highest level.
- Location
- United States
Well, yeah. Viserys and the Companions and other champions of the Imperium are going to be necessary a century from now, and a thousand years from now, etc etc. Even if we achieve the victory of all victories and push back the Void, that's all that's going to happen -- we pushed it away. We didn't destroy it. We didn't end the threat.
There's ambitious and then there's blindly hopeful. I don't see us dismantling every major threat so thoroughly that we can let the Imperium run itself. That's just not happening.
I get the feeling Marwyn is still judging us based off of his interactions with Aerys, which is understandable but still infuriates me every time.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
[X] Marwyn might actually appreciate this bit of blunt truth, and you're more than happy to give all of your other various arguments for why your reign is justified, and why the timescale you are operating on is utterly irrelevant for relaxing your grip when it comes to strengthening centralization and building up institutions.
-[X] But the biggest one is this: Viserys is more threatened by the perception of tyranny than Marwyn or Lanna is threatened by actual tyranny. Perhaps more so than even the average person is, though you admit that no legal system is perfect and there is always room for improvement, which you have to be seen as striving toward, actively and with purpose.
--[X] You rule based on reputation and convictions. Power helps, but ultimately it is because your convictions proved stronger than those who now serve you, or else opposed you, and brought them you your side by sheer magnetism alone. Ask Melisandre.
---[X] In exchange, we get broad authority over most things and dictate policy at the highest level. This is, tacitly, something that can be revoked if you buck your own building legend. This is a good thing.
-[X] But the biggest one is this: Viserys is more threatened by the perception of tyranny than Marwyn or Lanna is threatened by actual tyranny. Perhaps more so than even the average person is, though you admit that no legal system is perfect and there is always room for improvement, which you have to be seen as striving toward, actively and with purpose.
--[X] You rule based on reputation and convictions. Power helps, but ultimately it is because your convictions proved stronger than those who now serve you, or else opposed you, and brought them you your side by sheer magnetism alone. Ask Melisandre.
---[X] In exchange, we get broad authority over most things and dictate policy at the highest level. This is, tacitly, something that can be revoked if you buck your own building legend. This is a good thing.
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- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Crake
- Location
- United States
Of course, Lanna is going to be less than pleased by how we use said authority against her House in wake of the Conquest, but such is life. House Lannister will fall, and if they cooperate this particular branch might get to keep Castamere as Reynes or Casterlys or something. Or should they not comply we could give that castle to that one Reyne bastard who's friends with our sole psion and legitimize him.
Casterly Rock goes to the Crown, probably as a prominent Legion base. Lannisport goes to Theon and is renamed Greyport. Etc etc. We'll have to see what else. The vassals will need to be slapped down as well, but to a lesser extent. Sandor has ultimate dibs on his brother Gregor since he beat Oberyn in the tourney for the right. Cleganebowl is going to be so amazing. Lorch and Tywin on the other hand can be tossed to Oberyn and Doran.
[X] Crake
enigma1995
Gentleman Beholder
[X] Crake
- Location
- Reno Nv
We may want to have a back up just Incase. We do not want to pull and EOM, and have our entire system fail due to our deaths, or if we are not micromanage everything.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
These kinds of votes aren't really my cup of tea, but I was feeling wordy so here's a thing. Dunno if it's any good, though.
[X] Plan Friendship Is Empire
-[X] "The Imperium is a newly born empire, and for all the strength we have marshalled in a few short years, it remains a fragile construct. Few things come into being with the fullness of their potential power, however. Not a sorcerer, a dragon, or even a god, and certainly not a nation welded together from many disparate fragments, cities and lands that were once bitter enemies. That can change with time and care, and above all else, patience."
--[X] "Right now, and no doubt for years to come, the Imperium will need those of us with great personal power to defend it from any number of inimical forces that would threaten its continued existence. Myself, my Companions, the newly raised Dragonlords, and newly birthed dragons, alongside loyal vassals and armored Legions, and anything else we can muster will be needed to hold it all together."
---[X] "That will change soon enough, though perhaps not in a single mortal's lifetime. As we speak the Scholarum trains thousands of mages, mighty vessels of steel and magic more deadly than any dragon ever unleashed upon the skies by fallen Valyria defend our borders, Legions of men train to fight and slay monsters which could sweep all life from the land if left unchecked. New heroes rise and old heroes fall, Wisdom, but if our skill and power proves adequate to the task and our luck holds out, the Imperium will not depend upon a bare handful of heroes in order to thrive and prosper, for we will have raised up innumerable lights, men and women of conviction and purpose, to turn back the darkness."
-[X] "I rule the Imperium more on the weight of my convictions and my reputation, Wisdom, than I do as a result of my power. The power was necessary to reach the heights to which I have risen and to defeat the enemies encountered along the way, but it alone would not have birthed the Imperium. I am not the sole power within the Imperium, after all. There are many among my allies and vassals who would be counted mighty by any reckoning, more than I could possibly bind through power alone. They consent to my authority because they believe as I do, my goals are theirs and theirs mine. If this should change, my rule would fade away as if it had never been. Cities and nations could splinter from the Imperium and Western Essos would become another hotbed of internecine conflict, a land of pointless wars and needless suffering."
--[X] "I am surrounded by checks upon my power, Wisdom. Not just my friends and family, my allies and vassals, but all the people who claim citizenship in this newborn empire. I care about their well being, their happiness and prosperity. I want them to live their lives untroubled by fear and hardship. My authority may be great, but my responsibilities are a crushing weight, one I welcome freely. I do not abuse my power and authority because to do so jeopardizes all that we have built."
---[X] "Tell me, does a man like Tywin Lannister have friends? Does he care about anything but his power and legacy, about how he will be perceived by his so-called peers? What checks are there upon his power but those which he cannot circumvent through bribery, violence, or threats of such?"
[X] Plan Friendship Is Empire
-[X] "The Imperium is a newly born empire, and for all the strength we have marshalled in a few short years, it remains a fragile construct. Few things come into being with the fullness of their potential power, however. Not a sorcerer, a dragon, or even a god, and certainly not a nation welded together from many disparate fragments, cities and lands that were once bitter enemies. That can change with time and care, and above all else, patience."
--[X] "Right now, and no doubt for years to come, the Imperium will need those of us with great personal power to defend it from any number of inimical forces that would threaten its continued existence. Myself, my Companions, the newly raised Dragonlords, and newly birthed dragons, alongside loyal vassals and armored Legions, and anything else we can muster will be needed to hold it all together."
---[X] "That will change soon enough, though perhaps not in a single mortal's lifetime. As we speak the Scholarum trains thousands of mages, mighty vessels of steel and magic more deadly than any dragon ever unleashed upon the skies by fallen Valyria defend our borders, Legions of men train to fight and slay monsters which could sweep all life from the land if left unchecked. New heroes rise and old heroes fall, Wisdom, but if our skill and power proves adequate to the task and our luck holds out, the Imperium will not depend upon a bare handful of heroes in order to thrive and prosper, for we will have raised up innumerable lights, men and women of conviction and purpose, to turn back the darkness."
-[X] "I rule the Imperium more on the weight of my convictions and my reputation, Wisdom, than I do as a result of my power. The power was necessary to reach the heights to which I have risen and to defeat the enemies encountered along the way, but it alone would not have birthed the Imperium. I am not the sole power within the Imperium, after all. There are many among my allies and vassals who would be counted mighty by any reckoning, more than I could possibly bind through power alone. They consent to my authority because they believe as I do, my goals are theirs and theirs mine. If this should change, my rule would fade away as if it had never been. Cities and nations could splinter from the Imperium and Western Essos would become another hotbed of internecine conflict, a land of pointless wars and needless suffering."
--[X] "I am surrounded by checks upon my power, Wisdom. Not just my friends and family, my allies and vassals, but all the people who claim citizenship in this newborn empire. I care about their well being, their happiness and prosperity. I want them to live their lives untroubled by fear and hardship. My authority may be great, but my responsibilities are a crushing weight, one I welcome freely. I do not abuse my power and authority because to do so jeopardizes all that we have built."
---[X] "Tell me, does a man like Tywin Lannister have friends? Does he care about anything but his power and legacy, about how he will be perceived by his so-called peers? What checks are there upon his power but those which he cannot circumvent through bribery, violence, or threats of such?"
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Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Honestly I don't like this, or similar statements, simply because I feel like the caveat of "no empire lasts forever" is something that Viserys acknowledges privately, and makes moves to account for when ruling and creating a government, but not something that he is overly concerned with. We have no intentions of dying, even if we accept it as a possibility, and will even go to great lengths to circumvent death, even against the plots of Powers and Principalities, returning from the other side out of nowhere like we're some kind of Aizen Sōsuke motherfucker.
The point is, while we're around, you can expect what, if anything, that comes after to have as great a chance of success as is possible, compared to if our influence was pushed away or even slapped down. That's what matters in this whole philosophical debate. That we're correct now is irrelevant when the question is "will we be correct in the future?"
Also, this long winding ramble about the nature of power and responsibility isn't really what Marwyn is interested in. He wants to know if we actually have limits. We do. Which is more reassuring than apparently multiple years of generally living up to our reputation will ever do.
If, by this point, Marwyn and Lanna don't buy into the hype, they never will. What they want to know is if we have a line we won't cross.
We do. Several. We might drag out the line a bit, but the fact that the curve exists is what matters, not that we just stick a foot over the other end, or outright erase it.
Edit: That said, if you removed the first paragraph, the vote would be fine... except I'd enjoy an update where half of it isn't just a retread of the plan itself.
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Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
I snipped out that first paragraph. I'm sure DP will paraphrase a lot of what I've said here, if we end up going with my plan. He rarely directly ports over entire plans that are overly wordy.
- Location
- United States
Yeah, this is something we acknowledge privately.
As we covered a few days ago, our entire PR campaign is centered around our invincibility and our rising star. Sure, people can objectively understand nobody is truly immortal, but it's another thing entirely to suddenly realize in their heart that Viserys can very easily get in over his head in a battle and die. That realization makes them panic, and start to plan to cover their own asses for when they think the Imperium will fall, which only sows more chaos.
We're not about to profess the extent of our mortality to anyone but the Companions.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
- Location
- United States
@Goldfish, I'm not a fan of the phrasing of the last sentence. The Imperium is always going to need heroes, it's more of a case that our institutions can produce more heroes rather than everything solely relying on the Companions. Brave men and women among the Inquisition, the Legion, the Scholarum, etc. For example, the Imperium relying on Moonsong to carry her weight in some daring expedition. Saying that eventually the Imperium won't need heroes at all is a hollow statement.
Maybe that part could be changed to something along the lines of men and women joining the ranks of their protectors as we nurture their growth? We are investing a lot in them, after all.
Something people like Marwyn fail to realize is that centralization is 100% required to even begin to rule an empire that reigns over this many different religions and cultures. You need a unified legal system, unified currency, standing army, etc. Are local lords going to lose their authority? Yes. Absolutely. But that's just part of forging an empire.
They're mostly uncomfortable with it because they grew up in Westeros which basically functions as a confederacy.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
The more I read this, the angrier I get. I'm not sure if @DragonParadox wrote Marwyn as being deliberately obtuse to try to anger Viserys or not, because when you compare Viserys actions with Tywin's actions, it's like Tywin gets a free pass because he doesn't hide what a shitbird he is about circumventing all of the rules he believes he can get away with, when it's convenient, and when the benefits outweigh the risks.
In comparison Viserys gets a harsher metric standard of judgement because unlike Tywin he possesses personal power, not just institutional or indirect.
Even though if Tywin and Viserys were judged by the same metric and set of standards, Viserys outshines him in every possible facet in a handful of years of responsibility over the lives of others, compared to his multiple decades.
We aren't just a better ruler than Tywin, but just... plain better in every respect.
Only, we don't get the benefit of the doubt because of a perceived notion that there is the merest possibility we will fall beneath the standards we have set for ourselves, which are in of themselves higher standards than Lanna or Gerion adhere to.
When we have higher standards than all the people judging us, how can we possibly take them seriously?
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- Location
- United States
This isn't the first time characters have been written as morons incapable of understanding how not to insult us.
Remember how Lord Royce and Thoros of Myr both asked us not to kill babies? And then we -- as in we the players -- were treated like we were being unreasonable for being ticked at that?
There's being undiplomatic, and then there's this.
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Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Even though we demonstrated -- repeatedly, and publicly -- to value the lives of innocents and have gone above and beyond the call of duty or responsibility to ensure they were treated fairly?
Mercy may in fact be a virtue only the powerful get to exercise, but if anything that just highlights how weak people Lanna and Gerion and especially Tywin are.
They probably aren't going to cut any corners on their war crimes, and they will justify it with moronic statements that we cannot be trusted to hold power despite them being incapable of ever deserving having more authority than over a small county, and possibly one with non-critical industries since they will probably just use them as leverage to hurt more people.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
- Location
- United States
Yeah, after a while the same old shit gets annoying.
Much better, thank you.
[X] Goldfish
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
From what we've seen of Marwyn so far, I think he was deliberately being obtuse here. He of all people should know what kind of shitbiscuit Tywin really is.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Viserys, and I believe, truthfully, 100% genuinely, the zeitgeist of the thread, know that our ability to cast miracles and turn into a fire breathing monster of legend is bar none the least of what makes us great or worthy by whatever arbitrary, baseless quorum of opinions.
It's our convictions and beliefs that make us great and worth following. That people cease to recognize this just shows how shallow their world view really is. How utterly undeserving of responsibility they are.
Does this sound really, really arrogant when spoken aloud, from a position of utter and total power?
Sure! But we're a fucking Red Dragon, arrogance is kinda expected.
It's our convictions and beliefs that make us great and worth following. That people cease to recognize this just shows how shallow their world view really is. How utterly undeserving of responsibility they are.
Does this sound really, really arrogant when spoken aloud, from a position of utter and total power?
Sure! But we're a fucking Red Dragon, arrogance is kinda expected.
