Vote closed.

I'm going to try to get us through this chain of updates quickly and take critique on board, though for what it is worth those Graces are not children because of the emotional impact, they are children because they are vestal virgin stand ins and this is and oracle. It's supossed to make a symbolic point about innocence and guilt across generations. Judging from the reaction I rather messed it up.
 
Vote closed.

I'm going to try to get us through this chain of updates quickly and take critique on board, though for what it is worth those Graces are not children because of the emotional impact, they are children because they are vestal virgin stand ins and this is and oracle. It's supossed to make a symbolic point about innocence and guilt across generations. Judging from the reaction I rather messed it up.
A large part of that is that you do not foreshadow these things. At all. You have a habit of having information either wholly hidden or just dumping it out there.

See how you just tossed out Ezehkihdich being on the verge of falling without... any of the background information, any of the metaphysical ramifications or so much as meeting the character. You just... blew that plot point for... cheap shock value? I genuinely don't know what you tried to achieve with that, but I'd dare say it was cheap shock value. Which doesn't work when it's not contradicting any other information or comes unexpected. Instead now he is... another generic villain doing villainous things for transparent reasons, mostly rooted in his own base desires. And yes, I'm pretty damn salty about how you butcher the characters I designed like that. (To say nothing about the glaring plothole that his memories have somehow entered that book at all, which makes not a lick of sense to me and was never explained in any way shape or form. It just is. For contrived non-reasons.)

Also, all of this sounds like a post-hoc justification, given that you said yesterday:
I don't want to wear out the welcome of 'children in peril' as a narrative beat so I use it sparingly. Maybe it would make more sense for the villains to use it IC but I think the story would suffer for it through repetition
I'd say you absolutely went with this for the sake of having children imperiled. There are many different sorts of Graces, most of them adult, and the Vestal Virgins were not children. They were grown women taking chastity vows and eschewing marriage. Using children for this was a deliberate choice on your part, one that was not in any way forced upon you from outside.

I'm writing this because you lying to me about your motivations and plans is one of those things we had talked about recently. And I still do not appreciate that you do it. Especially since you kinda promised to stop doing it.
 
I'm writing this because you lying to me about your motivations and plans is one of those things we had talked about recently. And I still do not appreciate that you do it. Especially since you kinda promised to stop doing it.

OK, I am going to stop you right here. I did not lie. You might not believe me and that is your right, but if anything the fact that it could be taken as 'children are in danger' almost made me drop the plot. I was concerned that it would be too similar to the Tiamat cult in Oldtown and the Wight Lord up in the Far North. I used White Graces because I wanted to tell a story of Innocence lost.

That said you are right there was no bloody foreshadowing because I do not have time to foreshadow anything because there are a thosuand plates n the air at any given moment and what feels like hundreds of minor PCs doing stuff

I just can't keep up

Sometimes I wonder if I should just stop all this, if it's just gotten too big for me

Next update is still coming because I have it half written after that we'll see.
 
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@DragonParadox, for all the critique I can offer, and I agree with Azel's, i like the story even still.

If you feel overwhelmed, I would not be (too) sad for you dropping it here and now, however.
It has grown beyond the reasonable level of detail that could be expected from any single one person.

Take what you want from this, I had fun over the years with this place.
We can go on, with occasional arguments, and you slowly evolving tour writing as you did before.
We can start anew, with whole new stories and arguments which will crawl to the current level eventually.

I'm pretty sure we'll be fine and having our fun regardless.
 
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Part MMMDCXXII: Scars and Sacrifice
Scars and Sacrifice

Twenty Sixth Day of the Second Month 294 AC

Fire roars in the chamber at your command, not of any common sort that one might find in a battle mage's spell, a forge's heart, nor even in a dragon's gullet, but fire meant to burn only those whose time in the world of men is borrowed, the dead and the damned. Light blinds as easily as fire and for a moment Graces and captor both vanish from sight and knowledge as though they had never been upon some cosmic pyre.

Benerro speaks and the fire bends to form chains ethereal to bind your foe from fleeing even if it is into a trap, but when the light clears and the scene is revealed again the masked thing is still here, pallid flesh smocking and blackened from the blaze but of the children there is no sign, they are vanished. Translocated, you realize with a sinking feeling, right in front of the pyramid, still in the thrall of the thing before you to spread who knows what tales.

Then the writhing presence does the one thing you had not expected upon sending away its thralls, its draws from a pocket inside its own fetid flesh a dagger of a sort once used by the great generals of Ghis in the time of defeat that they may not be taken captive by their foes and shamed, and just as Garin's spells strike one after another sevenfold it cuts its own throat, blood shockingly red... human... spilling into the waters of the pool.

"You have taught us the worth of sacrifice... Dragonlord. For those who died without breath," the creature gasps wetly. As you watch the body begins to rot and sublimate into water then into smoke.

Rushing forward to guard against any peril Ser Richard reaches it first, but it is Benerro who seals it against the passage of time and Dany who carefully levitates the dagger until her somber gaze meets yours above its point. "It's cursed, the only way it could have killed it in one blow."

"What I want to know is what died without breath," Teana interjects. "If we are to fight choking ghosts next..."

The answer comes to you in a flash, though dark enough that you count it more shadow than light upon the mind. "When an Unsullied is finally broken to their master's will they are asked to choose slay a newborn slave from the market, torn from their mother's arm. Most are strangled."

Dany looks ill as she has not been through all the battles of this month at the reminder. "Why would a servant of the Lady of Spears feel it has to avenge them when it is Unsullied that kill them?"

"The infants are killed in her name, but not by the will of those who serve her," you answer slowly, still looking around the chamber for diabolic reinforcements that you are beginning to realize are not coming. "Who else would they belong to if not the goddess of warriors made slaves?"

"Wait," Garin interjects. "If the children were protecting this... being with their lives, what does it mean that she sacrificed herself to get them out of the pyramid?"

"At a guess..." Dany speaks slowly, as though not wanting the words to be true. "Those girls became vessels of its purpose, of its sacrifice." The last is spoken with revulsion.

"Sacrifice is not what i would call so cynical a working," Benerro says, his usually kindly face set into lines of cold purpose, almost of rage.

"The Unsullied and their Goddess are a thing of perverted purpose, we should not perhaps be shocked that they act it out. The girls will carry yet more of Asmodeus' will among the Good Masters, their minds and souls heavy with a darkness deeper than mere enchantment can breed." you shake your head. "We can only hope we have been distracting enough for those in the under-city to do what needs be done."

OOC: No vote this time, partly because there should be an interlude up next and partly because I need to seriously consider some things about this quest in general.
 
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@DragonParadox, for all the critique I can offer, and I agree with Azel's, i like the story even still.

If you feel overwhelmed, I would not be (too) sad for you dropping it here and now, however.
It has grown beyond the reasonable level of detail that could be expected from any single one person.

Take what you want from this, I had fun over the years with this place.
We can go on, with occasional arguments, and you slowly evolving tour writing as you did before.
We can start anew, with whole new stories and arguments which will crawl to the current level eventually.

I'm pretty sure we'll be fine and having our fun regardless.

I'm not sure how I would feel just dropping this quest forever frozen mid-arc. Miserable for letting everyone down and tangling the plot thread to the point where I could not go on, that one is for sure. I honestly am not sure how to continue or how to stop and that is a pretty terrible place to be. I'd like to be able to continue, there are a whole bunch of things I would enjoy writing and plots I would enjoy laying out, but there is this sense that I somehow both need to reinvent how I write while keeping all the plates spinning I'm not sure I can do that
 
I will just comment that I also feel the plot fatigue. It's why I've pushed narrowing focus and not spreading out our attention too much on the player-side of things. It just feels like sometimes if it falls outside of our own player-directed efforts and plans, it doesn't get fleshed out to the degree it pretty much has to be, despite the fact that players are 100% understanding and fine with a conflict being more dense than they were expecting and realizing that managing actions and resources is a responsibility we've held the entirety of the quest.

Like for instance, the reason I don't bitch and moan about this entire arc is that I was under the impression we were taking part in a delaying action... things not progressing beyond a narrow band makes sense.

But OTOH, it seems like @DragonParadox doesn't take the time to sketch things further than is necessary to progress the plot, even when it is necessary to have a good arc later on.

A) Players are attempting to do X, which could impact how the other characters, antagonists or otherwise, might play their own hands, what new plans they might make in response to actions being taken at present, what actions might be taken in the future inferred from our own actions, and a pattern of actions we've taken in the past. This reads back into the comment on characters seeming unwilling to compromise their motivations, when in reality not being more flexible in their desires and motives just takes away a lot of their own agency.

2.A) This can be counteracted mostly by self-contained arc villains, in the case of conflict driving characters, who have enough lateral authority over their faction that you can sketch out some lieutenants and their own basic motives, but rely on the planning and motivations of the main villain and add further complexity as necessary, ensuring not to limit yourself in terms of "how can this character demonstrate agency in ways that don't make them seem like they're juggling an idiot ball"?

Some of the walls and emergency brakes slammed in could obviously be the limiting factors these types of characters usually have, but generally speaking none of them are too onerous not to just go in a new direction with them.

B) Players want to go do something interesting. If we're forced to interact with something because of things writing themselves into corners, players don't want it to be boring. The other side of this is, I'm 90% sure none of us have much interest in combat encounters as padding. There are a number of obstacles we could have dealt with, a mystery, or nobles drawn into some kind of ponzi scheme, or religious figures delivering fresh acolytes to devils without the knowledge of their superiors... at this point the commitment to the whole arc is faltering specifically because we know we're not going to stay here long enough to have any meaningful impact.

And the dissatisfaction could stem from not using these opportunities to show agency from others and their evolving characterization. I think it's good to show that with characters in our own faction, but to get players truly invested similar effort has to be done for characters we are in conflict with.

C) If there's some desire to just "get on with it already" on the DM side of the screen, providing a plot opportunity to do exactly that in a conclusive fashion, maybe with some inherent risk involved to balance out the fact that normal rewards in this situation would have just been more of stuff players no longer care about because "we found out how to get our own", I.E most loot that isn't new shiny we can't get at without throwing more resources at it.


I don't really know how you'd go about that at this point, without things feeling a little rushed or contrived, but honestly I would be fine with that so long as more albatrosses around the story's neck didn't get created to justify "the world feeling alive" when, conversely, time isn't taken to create at least a road map for how things will play out. There's more logistics to things than throwing a dart at a board and saying "devils will be doing stuff over there", because reasons.
 
OK, I am going to stop you right here. I did not lie. You might not believe me and that is your right,
Sorry, but I'm just not capable of giving you the benefit of the doubt there anymore. There was just one too many times where I had to dance around you coming up with ever new reasons why I should not write something instead of plainly saying "I don't want that". Which would have been fine by the way. Instead I'm always left with the feeling that you are arguing with hidden motives when talking to me about critique or story ideas of mine.
That said you are right there was no bloody foreshadowing because I do not have time to foreshadow anything because there are a thosuand plates n the air at any given moment and what feels like hundreds of minor PCs stuff
Look. You can drop some of those plates and stop throwing up new ones. Just... axe stuff. Let there be stalemates in the CoB and cancel the operation. Let the Illithid remain in their fortresses and not bother anyone. Cut down on the interludes and do just plain reports.

These are options.
 
Scars and Sacrifice

Twenty Sixth Day of the Second Month 294 AC

Fire roars in the chamber at your command, not of any common sort that one might find in a battle mage's spell or a forge's heart, not even in a dragon's gullet, but fire meant to burn only those whose time in the world of men is borrowed, the dead and the damned. Light blinds as easily as fire, and for a moment Graces and and captor both vanish from sight and knowledge as though they had never been upon some cosmic pyre.

Benerro speaks and the fire bends to chains ethereal, to bind your foe from fleeing even if it is into a trap, but when the light clears and the scene is revealed again the masked thing is still here, pallid flesh smoking and blackened from the blaze, but of the children there is no sign, they are vanished. Translocated, you realize with a sinking feeling, right in front of the pyramid, still in the thrall of the thing before you, to spread who knows what tales.

Then the writhing presence does the one thing you had not expected upon sending away its thralls, its draws from a pocket inside its own fetid flesh a dagger of a sort once used by the great generals of Ghis in the time of defeat that they may not be taken captive by their foes and shamed, and just as Garin's spells strike, one after another sevenfold it cuts its own throat, blood shockingly red... human... spilling into the waters of the pool.

"You have taught us the worth of sacrifice... dragonlord. For those who died without breath," the creature gasps wetly. As you watch the body begins to rot and sublimate into water, into smoke.

Rushing forward to guard against any peril Ser Richard reaches it first, but it is Benerro who seals it against the passage of time and Dany who carefully levitates the dagger until her somber gaze meets yours above its point. "It's cursed, the only way it could have killed that in one blow."

"What I want to know is what died without breath," Teana interjects. "If we are to fight choking ghosts next..."

The answer comes to you in a flash, though dark enough that you count it more shadow than light upon the mind. "When an Unsulled is finally broken to their master's will, they are asked to choose slay a newborn slave from the market, torn from their mother's arm. Most are strangled."

Dany looks ill, as she has not through all the battles of this month, at the reminder. "Why would a servant of the Lady of Spears feel it has to avenge them when it is Unsullied that kill them?"

"The infants are killed in her name, but not by the will of those who serve her," you answer slowly, still looking around the chamber for diabolic reinforcements that you are beginning to realize are not coming. "Who else would they belong to if not the goddess of warriors made slaves?"

"Wait," Garin interjects. "If the children were protecting this... being with their lives, what does it mean that she sacrificed herself to get them out of the pyramid?"

"At a guess..." Dany speaks slowly, as though not wanting the words to be true. "Those girls became vessels of its purpose, of its sacrifice." The last is spoken with revulsion.

"Sacrifice is not what I would call so cynical a working," Benerro says, his usually kindly face set into lines of cold purpose, almost of rage.

"The Unsullied and their Goddess are a thing of perverted purpose. We should not perhaps be shocked that they act it out. The girls will carry yet more of Asmodeous' will among the Masters, their minds and souls heavy with a darkness deeper than mere enchantment can breed." You shake your head. "We can only hope we have been distracting enough for those in the Undercity to do what needs be done."

OOC: No vote this time, partly because there should be an interlude up next and partly because I need to seriously consider some things about this quest in general. Not yet edited.
Here's an edited version of the chapter, DP.
 
I'm not sure how I would feel just dropping this quest forever frozen mid-arc. Miserable for letting everyone down and tangling the plot thread to the point where I could not go on, that one is for sure. I honestly am not sure how to continue or how to stop and that is a pretty terrible place to be. I'd like to be able to continue, there are a whole bunch of things I would enjoy writing and plots I would enjoy laying out, but there is this sense that I somehow both need to reinvent how I write while keeping all the plates spinning I'm not sure I can do that
Take a break for a few weeks, write out plots and brainstorm ideas, and make yourself a big bucket of things to whip out of your hat in an unplanned emergency.
Then you can get back to writing with a "safety net".
 
I'm not sure how I would feel just dropping this quest forever frozen mid-arc. Miserable for letting everyone down and tangling the plot thread to the point where I could not go on, that one is for sure. I honestly am not sure how to continue or how to stop and that is a pretty terrible place to be. Id'd like to be able to continue, there are a whole bunch of things I would enjoy writing and plots I would enjoy laying out, but there is this sense that I somhow both need to reinvent how I write while keeping all the plates spinning I'm not sure I can do that
Shall we abstract away everything that isn't Viserys-perspective to just (at most) chapter-long reports?
It would hurt a lot of characters and plots, but it would reduce the scope about a dozen times.

(We've been 'playing' background mechanics aline for a few years anyway, with few (if any) on-screen shows of those.
Well, Crake and Goldfish had been mostly. Me at times, Talon, Duesal and Artemis too.)

I, too, would like to continue playing it.
Would any of us be here if it was otherwise?

Some of people in the thread like to contribute directly, some just "shitpost" and love discussions along, but we have a nice little community here.

I'm not sure if a mechanical change I proposed above is too nuclear, but I'm pretty sure there should be one that will end up to everyone's (eventual) satisfaction.

Edit: or do as Azel proposes.
We can discuss stuff here.
Some salt will always be here, but we always ended up with better systems as a result of direct discussion
 
Take a break for a few weeks, write out plots and brainstorm ideas, and make yourself a big bucket of things to whip out of your hat in an unplanned emergency.
Then you can get back to writing with a "safety net".
Honestly, this is my favorite option, I just don't bother suggesting it because DP has said "I either write something or I'll lose motivation", which, fair, but I am not really satisfied with that answer since if you've been writing something for literal years I really don't think it's that hard to come back to it later, especially if you've mostly spent that time creating ammunition and ideas for it.
 
Hell, if anything, you should drop the whole "always give players something to vote between chapters"-thing, DP.

It's not just a quest, it's a story, too.

You've had one far too many times you hurt it by abiding to this arbitrary thing.
 
Hell, if anything, you should drop the whole "always give players something to vote between chapters"-thing, DP.

It's not just a quest, it's a story, too.

You've had one far too many times you hurt it by abiding to this arbitrary thing.
Yeah, limitations for players makes sense, but limiting your own update structure just doesn't. It seems like just fabricating unnecessary stress on some loose idea that players are headless chickens who will wander off if we don't have something to vote on. Usually we just do our own fuckin' thing anyway.
 
Look. You can drop some of those plates and stop throwing up new ones. Just... axe stuff. Let there be stalemates in the CoB and cancel the operation. Let the Illithid remain in their fortresses and not bother anyone. Cut down on the interludes and do just plain reports.

These are options.

Walling off whole pieces of the world just feels like giving up in pieces rather than in whole. It's n option but I would not call it palatable. Might hav to do it though

Take a break for a few weeks, write out plots and brainstorm ideas, and make yourself a big bucket of things to whip out of your hat in an unplanned emergency.
Then you can get back to writing with a "safety net".

The issue is that I'm barely keeping the whole world of ASWAH in my head as is, give it a few weeks without contact and half the pieces may have fallen out leaving me unable to continue.
 
The issue is that I'm barely keeping the whole world of ASWAH in my head as is, give it a few weeks without contact and half the pieces may have fallen out leaving me unable to continue.
That's why I'm saying "take extensive notes", perhaps on Google Drive (so you can get someone like Azel to help see if you've forgotten something) or something. Start by writing out every plotline you remember, then have bullet points called "characters", "motivations, "outcomes if PCs don't intervene, dates", "notes" for each one. Maybe do the same for major locations. Then you can look at the whole mess in one go, brainstorm things, and make a big safety net file of ideas and plans.
Then three weeks later you can come back to it all!

And if you still fear forgetting stuff, spend an hour or two each day rereading old updates. That'll help you keep things in mind, and remind you of past details!
 
Honestly, this is my favorite option, I just don't bother suggesting it because DP has said "I either write something or I'll lose motivation", which, fair, but I am not really satisfied with that answer since if you've been writing something for literal years I really don't think it's that hard to come back to it later, especially if you've mostly spent that time creating ammunition and ideas for it.
Got to agree here.
@DragonParadox, if you find it that hard to not write something?

Write background shit.

Write that foreshadowing you, Azel, and other people who can read it (unlike me) salt so much over.

Write stuff for other continents.
We have an entire hidden continent we will get to one day unless the quest dies.

Finish the write-up for Valyrian Gods.
Devide what all the places in Sotuoryos actually have brewing in them, since right now they are just fluffy dungeon-delves we'd never visit because they take too much OOC time to do. See Snecropolis for example.
Establish for yourself just what exactly all the factions have been doing, what are their reasons for it, how they will jntercross with our own operations, etc.
Not just the "okay, dice gave an encounter, now I have to think of one..." you admitted to doing a few times, but things we'll miss if we arent careful, unless we:
A) Roll really well.
B) Actially follow the "foreshadowing"



The issue is that I'm barely keeping the whole world of ASWAH in my head as is, give it a few weeks without contact and half the pieces may have fallen out leaving me unable to continue.
I'm willing to take the risk.
If you oh-so-much worry about forgetting it all?
Dont just put it on paper but share stuff with some select people. Maybe outside the wuest, though?

I get that you dont believe in yourself... but we do.
Trust in us believing in you, maybe?


Edit: Largely Talon'ed.
 
I'm not sure how I would feel just dropping this quest forever frozen mid-arc. Miserable for letting everyone down and tangling the plot thread to the point where I could not go on, that one is for sure. I honestly am not sure how to continue or how to stop and that is a pretty terrible place to be. I'd like to be able to continue, there are a whole bunch of things I would enjoy writing and plots I would enjoy laying out, but there is this sense that I somehow both need to reinvent how I write while keeping all the plates spinning I'm not sure I can do that
DP I think you need to remember that you do this for fun. You don't owe anyone anything. If you don't enjoy writing it you have no obligation to do it. But also on the other hand, if someone is not enjoying what you do, thats their problem. You shouldn't let them guilt you into feeling bad.
 
Hell, if anything, you should drop the whole "always give players something to vote between chapters"-thing, DP.

It's not just a quest, it's a story, too.

You've had one far too many times you hurt it by abiding to this arbitrary thing.
Fully agree with that part, there are many quests that do that and I have never seen anyone complain about having nothing to vote on.

Just take all the CK2 quests that cut down the results of a big vote into multiple updates for example.

Walling off whole pieces of the world just feels like giving up in pieces rather than in whole. It's n option but I would not call it palatable. Might hav to do it though
A few of these things make internal sense to stand still though.
The City of Brass has been fighting that war for centuries, added support for the Shaitan from the PoA might turn things around, but that can be a matter of years and decades, not instant to be in time for our quest.
Similarly the Deep Ones really have relativly little reason to act on the surface beyons the occasional slave-taking for delicacy-food or fresh breeding stock.
 
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I hate to say this but one of the issues I think we have is just too many characters, they all have to have their own arcs and their own reactions and their own growth and all of that is on screen so I have to concentrate on then. You guys noticed when they started ti feel wooden, vilains by contrast are mostly behind the curtain so when someone gets shortchanged on characterization it's usually the villains.

This unfortunately gets us all the way back here with vilains who act either in an uninspired way or one with no foreshadowing. how would you guys feel if we just took some people out of the spotlight or at the very least abstained from adding more like Marwyn and company? they would still exist just not be given center stage and PoV chapters.
 
I'm gonna echo those saying take a break to actually write out notes on Google Docs for background and motivation and foreshadowing.

@DragonParadox
1. It would give you breathing room for the quest you've never actually had before.
2. It would make the quest quite a bit more rich to have villain motivations and backstories more solidly design and firmly woven into the narrative.
3. You saying this is mostly in your head is massively worrying. You really need to take notes.
 
DP I think you need to remember that you do this for fun. You don't owe anyone anything. If you don't enjoy writing it you have no obligation to do it. But also on the other hand, if someone is not enjoying what you do, thats their problem. You shouldn't let them guilt you into feeling bad.
You seem to be targetting Azel here.
I've learned my lesson on staying quiet when shit like that happens so...

Please, Cease. And. Fucking. Desist.

We are all worried about making this story better narrative.
This quest better game.
This community less prone to salt.

Azel raises reasonable, if somewhat personal points.

You have no right to defame him like that just because you disagree with something stated previously.

No more than I had the right act the way I did during the Conclave, no more than... that one guy continuously claiming DP and Azel wrote Lucan the way they did to hurt the thread, before leaving.
 
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I'm gonna echo those saying take a break to actually write out notes on Google Docs for background and motivation and foreshadowing.

@DragonParadox
1. It would give you breathing room for the quest you've never actually had before.
2. It would make the quest quite a bit more rich to have villain motivations and backstories more solidly design and firmly woven into the narrative.
3. You saying this is mostly in your head is massively worrying. You really need to take notes.
I think that for the quest to be sustainable, even if we took the meat cleaver to a bunch of stuff like DP suggested (which is a valid way to do things from an authorial pov), being more organized is pretty much essential. Sometimes time needs to be taken to deal with things behind the scenes.
 
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