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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Azel said:
It's funny how the thread is largely ambivalent about causing all kinds of calamities in the city, but harming a few onscreen children is absolutely forbidden.

Consider this my addendum to @Crake observing the three kinds of generic evil mage.
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I don't actually care, but party drama is an absolute chore to read so I will happily work to avoid that.

[X] Azel
 
Duesal said:
I don't actually care, but party drama is an absolute chore to read so I will happily work to avoid that.

[X] Azel
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My vote is the one which should avoid party drama in this instance. The Seeker can AMF the children within seconds. It costs us nothing to block the connection between the creature and the children, and making the attempt will keep Dany, Garin, and Benerro happy.
 
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Azel said:
That's... not what I was talking about. My point is that if you know that you can protect yourself from the most dangerous local troublemaker by strapping some bomb collars to a bunch of children, a lot more people should be doing it. Like, all the time.

But the planning of most hostiles is exceedingly poor, so there is that.

To boot: What the hell are we doing right now? There should have been some kind of process or plan in case of heavy attacks on the Baator aligned forces here, but mostly everyone is being good little NPCs and sit tightly while being knocked over one by one.
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Ah I see, the issue there is twofold:
  1. I don't want to wear out the welcome of 'children in peril' as a narrative beat so I use it sparingly. Maybe it would make more sense for the villains to use it IC but I think the story would suffer for it through repetition
  2. As for the reaction by Baator that will take a bit more time, I can't say more than that without spoilers
 
Goldfish said:
My vote is the one which should avoid party drama in this instance. The Seeker can AMF the children up within seconds. It costs us nothing to block the connection between the creature and the children, and making the attempt will keep Dany, Garin, and Benerro happy.
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I realized Azel posted a vote immediately after I commented and switched to him after I read through the following discussion. I'm sticking with him because narratively it doesn't make sense for fiends to realize we'll go out of our way to protect children no matter how inconvenient and then for some reason not abuse the hell out of that tactic. This doesn't exist in a bubble.
DragonParadox said:
I don't want to wear out the welcome of 'children in peril' as a narrative beat so I use it sparingly. Maybe it would make more sense for the villains to use it IC but I think the story would suffer for it through repetition
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@DragonParadox, then you have to deal with handing fiends the idiot ball for not exploiting the hell a tactic that absolutely works against Viserys. That might be acceptable for Demons who are morons or Daemons who are constantly self-destructive, but there's no good excuse for Devils.

This is directly contradictory to how we've seen them engage with us in the past. We went around turtling devils, and then lo and behold, Beads of Newt Prevention became common among their gear. Devils are the exact opposite of a static moronic enemy. If they realize a tactic works they're not going to let it gather dust.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Ah I see, the issue there is twofold:
  1. I don't want to wear out the welcome of 'children in peril' as a narrative beat so I use it sparingly. Maybe it would make more sense for the villains to use it IC but I think the story would suffer for it through repetition
  2. As for the reaction by Baator that will take a bit more time, I can't say more than that without spoilers
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1. You are using it as a narrative beatstick instead. One that always feels contrived due to how it is disconnected from the logic of what the opposition would actually do when presented with such an easy and obvious handle. Either use it or don't use it, but don't use it as a cheap drama button that comes and goes without rhyme or reason except for the convenience for the encounter.

2. This is a general problem though. You still don't write villains with agency and character, just a series of encounters and set-pieces. This is why there so much arc fatigue all the time. This fight here is just meaningless padding while the important event happens off-screen. And you know that yourself, or you wouldn't have used the cheap drama button to insert something that looks like stakes and risks if you squint.
 
Duesal said:
@DragonParadox, then you have to deal with handing fiends the idiot ball for not exploiting the hell a tactic that absolutely works against Viserys. That might be acceptable for Demons who are morons or Daemons who are constantly self-destructive, but there's no good excuse for Devils.

This is directly contradictory to how we've seen them engage with us in the past. We went around turtling devils, and then lo and behold, Beads of Newt Prevention became common among their gear. Devils are the exact opposite of a static moronic enemy. If they realize a tactic works they're not going to let it gather dust.
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Fair points, I'm just not sure how to integrate it without hemmering it to the point of frustration

Azel said:
1. You are using it as a narrative beatstick instead. One that always feels contrived due to how it is disconnected from the logic of what the opposition would actually do when presented with such an easy and obvious handle. Either use it or don't use it, but don't use it as a cheap drama button that comes and goes without rhyme or reason except for the convenience for the encounter.

2. This is a general problem though. You still don't write villains with agency and character, just a series of encounters and set-pieces. This is why there so much arc fatigue all the time. This fight here is just meaningless padding while the important event happens off-screen. And you know that yourself, or you wouldn't have used the cheap drama button to insert something that looks like stakes and risks if you squint.
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Didn't really mean for the fact that they are children to play a major role in this encounter, there's some politics and world-building involved if you get them out alive. To be entirely honest I'd never meant for this encounter to be a focus of any sort just a stepping stone to the far more planned out events down in the under-city and beyond unfortunately that shows.

That is what I get for being distracted with sheet reorganization

Sorry guys, I'lll try to be more on the ball from now on.
 
DragonParadox said:
Fair points, I'm just not sure how to integrate it without hemmering it to the point of frustration
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This is one of those things that probably should be hammered in to the point of frustration. These are devils, they're not going to face us with kiddie gloves on. In turn Viserys' faction needs to figure out how to respond to the overuse of children meatshields, and then the devils respond, and so on and so forth.

We are in an arms race with the devils (see turtling getting promptly countered), and tactics are one of the things being constantly measured up.
 
Duesal said:
This is one of those things that probably should be hammered in to the point of frustration. These are devils, they're not going to face us with kiddie gloves on. In turn Viserys' faction needs to figure out how to respond to the overuse of children meatshields, and then the devils respond, and so on and so forth.

We are in an arms race with the devils (see turtling getting promptly countered), and tactics are one of the things being constantly measured up.
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I agree, it has to be dealt with IC. I'm just trying to think of a way that does not feel forced.
 
now i'm thinking of overlord where a bunch of ogers strapped childern to themselves so they wouldn't get shot while throwing boulders at the walls. what one of the character did was say aim for the kids so they never attempted the tactic again becouse they knew it wasn't effective
 
Question, if it's just a basic reversal on Shield Other (we've seen those before and this one doesn't seem to have physical anchors like the chains that Tiger fiend used to leash souls to him, or Anu-Simung used to... you get the point), why can't you just dispel the effect?

Anyway, there's more to rescuing them than "no hurt feel feels" guys, the kids are politically important specifically because they're basically the Ghiscari equivalent to the Vestal Virgins.

It is supposed to be a BIG no-no to hurt them for religious reasons. Conversely, if we save them, we can get some gratitude.
 
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Crake said:
Question, if it's just a basic reversal on Shield Other (we've seen those before and this one doesn't seem to have physical anchors like the chains that Tiger fiend used to leash souls to him, or Anu-Simung used to... you get the point), why can't you just dispel the effect?

Anyway, there's more to rescuing them than "no hurt feel feels" guys, the kids are politically important specifically because they're basically the Ghiscari equivalent to the Vestal Virgins.

It is supposed to be a BIG no-no to hurt them for religious reasons. Conversely, if we save them, we can get some gratitude.
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Good point.

[X] The plan will proceed, but with the following changes:
-[X] Viserys will activate his ring to gain a +2 bonus on Dispel checks and target the children with a Chain Dispel using Wild Arcana (+24 bonus to the Dispel check, rolling twice on each check and using the better result).

[X] Anya Level Up
-[X] Class: +1 Mystic Theurge
-[X] Feat: Retrain Expanded Arcana (Mirror Image) >>> Expanded Arcana (Elation, Mirror Image)
-[X] Skills (4 points): +4 Concentration
--[X] Divine Spells:
---[X] 0 Level: Create Water
---[X] 2nd Level: Divine Insight, Elation
---[X] 3rd Level: Channeled Divine Shield, Greater Stunning Barrier, Mass Conviction
--[X] Arcane Spells:
---[X] 1st Level: Retrain Stunning Barrier >>> Moment of Greatness
---[X] 3rd Level: Heroism
 
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Well "It will create a lot of Skub" isn't "Asmodeus stands to benefit from pushing Viserys towards an evil alignment", but its something?

[X] The plan will proceed, but with the following changes:
-[X] Garin and Mereth will guard the chamber's entrance while the Seeker activates its Antimagic Field SLA and keeps the children gathered within the effect, roughly if necessary, with Varys' help.
-[X] Richard will fight solely to harass the creature, preventing it from escaping or using magic via nonlethal attacks (-4 penalty to attack rolls) until the children are within the AMF, and everyone else will hold back their spells until then as well.

Goldfish said:
Good point.

[X] The plan will proceed, but with the following changes:
-[X] Viserys will activate his ring to gain a +2 bonus on Dispel checks and target the children with a Chain Dispel using Wild Arcana (+24 bonus to the Dispel check, rolling twice on each check and using the better result).
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This wont stop the thing from hurling a fireball or what have you the graces way to spite us.

Richard might be able to deflect it out of the air though. Which would be rad AF.
 
zxzx24 said:
Well "It will create a lot of Skub" isn't "Asmodeus stands to benefit from pushing Viserys towards an evil alignment", but its something?

[X] The plan will proceed, but with the following changes:
-[X] Garin and Mereth will guard the chamber's entrance while the Seeker activates its Antimagic Field SLA and keeps the children gathered within the effect, roughly if necessary, with Varys' help.
-[X] Richard will fight solely to harass the creature, preventing it from escaping or using magic via nonlethal attacks (-4 penalty to attack rolls) until the children are within the AMF, and everyone else will hold back their spells until then as well.

This wont stop the thing from hurling a fireball or what have you the graces way to spite us.

Richard might be able to deflect it out of the air though. Which would be rad AF.
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Dany and Benerro are both on Counterspelling duty, and Richard will be working to prevent it from casting anything.
 
For what is worth, I think Azel and Duesal have good arguments here.
 
Don't forget to vote, ya'll.

Please consider my option. The only thing changed from my original attack plan is that Viserys will be acting to Dispel the Shield Other effect protecting the creature rather than dropping a Cleansing Conflagration on it. Yes, that would have been a lot of damage if it doesn't resist, but it will still have Garin, Mereth, and Richard focus firing on it, while three different capture spells are used against it.

Not having the Shield Other effect on the children will make it easier for the other stuff we're using against it to be effective, since even a basic Shield Other spell increases the recipient's saving throws.
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Aug 23, 2020 at 7:50 PM, finished with 43 posts and 9 votes.
  • [X] The plan will proceed, but with the following changes:
    -[X] Viserys will activate his ring to gain a +2 bonus on Dispel checks and target the children with a Chain Dispel using Wild Arcana (+24 bonus to the Dispel check, rolling twice on each check and using the better result).
    [X] Proceed as planned. If you hesitate now, every fiend in Slavers Bay will soon use the same tactics.
    [X] The plan will proceed, but with the following changes:
    -[X] Garin and Mereth will guard the chamber's entrance while the Seeker activates its Antimagic Field SLA and keeps the children gathered within the effect, roughly if necessary, with Varys' help.
    -[X] Richard will fight solely to harass the creature, preventing it from escaping or using magic via nonlethal attacks (-4 penalty to attack rolls) until the children are within the AMF, and everyone else will hold back their spells until then as well.
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