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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Ultimately, Westeros is a barely related bunch of feudal states, with the Iron Throne acting more as a figurehead then an actual liege to them. There's just no institutions or even legal mechanisms in place except the King telling his Lords Paramount to Do StuffTM​.

Which is par for the course of medieval fantasy settings, but that's also the reason why most don't hold up to all that much scrutiny.
 
Crake said:
If you poke it in the right place, it all comes flying apart.

Fantasy!
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It's a bit annoying though since it makes the settings politics very interchangeable, to the point where you could easily keep most of the plot of the books and turn it into a high school drama.
Everything is solely driven by the characters navigating a cookie cutter medieval hodgepodge of french chivalry, HRE-style nobility that does whatever it wants, and a helping of Arthurian Myth thrown in to make it more Fantasy.

For example Baelish and Varys are completely interchangeable in their functions in the story, despite their official job descriptions wildly differing. And thanks to "No Institutions, No Rules", even the Hand is largely an ornamental title that we care about solely because the characters tell us that it's a big deal.
Jack vile Ripper said:
Sounds like my massage partner~.
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Oberyn: "I approve of this message." :ogles:
 
Oberyn should star in a beer commercial... we are getting into the alcoholic beverage industry... :thonk:
 
Azel said:
Oberyn: "I approve of this message." :ogles:
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Honestly though, if there's one person. ONE person at all who is a decent and fun human being in Planetos that I wanna fell in love with. Oberyn is my Main go-to man.

And his voice...

OOOOHHHH Baby!!! I need myself some some Other Wightlord ASAP 'cuz it's getting hotter than the Nine Hells right here!
 
Jack vile Ripper said:
Honestly though, if there's one person. ONE person at all who is a decent and fun human being in Planetos that I wanna fell in love with. Oberyn is my Main go-to man.

And his voice...

OOOOHHHH Baby!!! I need myself some some Other Wightlord ASAP 'cuz it's getting hotter than the Nine Hells right here!
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whitch layer? you know one of them is covered in ice right?
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Mar 23, 2020 at 6:02 AM, finished with 55 posts and 19 votes.
  • [X] Dragons and Demagogues
    -[X] Talking about greater threats seems a bit lackluster, for however much it worked with those who were ignorant of the problems plaguing people on a wider scope, Lord Uller does not seem ignorant about the happenings of the world.
    -[X] Since it is the case that at this point, anyone who isn't turning you away at the door has agreed, at least in principle, with the conceit that there is something of worth behind accepting a King who isn't just a "first among equals" that Aegon's laxity in setting up further institutions had made the Iron Throne's current chair warmer.
    -[X] This does not mean that everyone agrees the level of power which the Crown wields should rise back to even the times where Aegon himself could be reasonably certain that he could cow the nobility into following his commands, or else the first King Viserys who could content himself with being maneuvered around politically but never blatantly countermanded.
    -[X] You on the other hand have no interest in creating compromises in your authority, not when a fiend or other threats have used smaller cracks to make a terminal cancer out of any organization before. You can't allow Lords to run wild and plot and scheme while allowing interlopers to further poison the well of good will and cause harm to all for their interference.
    -[X] You think that there is this belief that even with greater threats on the horizon, the Lords can use the King to act as a mediator and settle the problems themselves with their current resources once he has achieved a baseline agreement with his vassals, and it's just that Robert has no interest in that role which is stopping them from doing so.
    -[X] Or else on a local level a belief that they can isolate Dorne (or any of the other Kingdoms) from the rest of the world's problems and using the same microcosm of the above, just replace "King" with "Prince" where appropriate.
    -[X] This is false. All great states you care to name operate on similar principles and have weathered tribulations far greater than Westeros has experienced since ancient times, yet from those times you are aware, for all their great works, nothing of their civilizations remain.
    -[X] Dornish culture has more in common with that of the Rhoynar than the First Men, or even the Andals come to that, as a consequence to the troubles which have plagued them for the last thousand years or more, yet none of those things have anything in common with Hell who has reigned supreme over the Planes for who knows how long, or the realms of Genies who have seen even more ancient polities cast down into dust and carry the emblems and heirlooms from those times still like an heir turned old and grey, but still remembering what was.
    -[X] You have a dream of a world which is safe, rich and from which its people can pursue their interests within the confines of the law, while the same structures which supports this state of affairs keeps them in check with the commiserate power granted to them.
    -[X] This is not simply a direct consequence of your actions, so much as a consequence of what newfound agency of the lower classes, of extreme economic inequality slackening and the greater personal power of magic landing in the hands of those who were not raised from birth with the common expectation of authority backing them from the start.
    -[X] If you do not create these structures for them to settle into, they will forcibly enact their own, which will leave everyone bloodied and weak, something that, as Lord Uller already knows, cannot be afforded.
    -[X] Moreover, a strong leader at the top creates a unifying icon from which all heads will turn and take inference from. A man from the streets rising to the halls of power does not just face a Lord who has obstructed him and the challenge of casting him down for their own gain, but instead contends with the notion that he faces yourself.
    -[X] It is one thing to grasp that a Lord is just a man who has been entrusted with power, that they can be attacked socially, economically or militarily, but it is quite another to consider the same of a Dragon who's every breath is death and every word honeyed gold. Moreso when every arm of state, from the Inquisition to the Administration and the Scholarum, is conferred their authority by you.
    -[X] So the Crown is the State and vice versa, both of which have feudal obligations not only in achieving peace and prosperity for their vassals, but also their subjects, or as you prefer, citizens. The Citizens simply have a stake in the same, adding one more link to the chain unbroken.
    -[X] There is of course the concern that you should prove inadequate to meet those obligations, which would flow ever downwards into everything you touched, or else that you should make yourself into a tyrant... but you have a hatred for tyrants and an intense aversion to corruption, and it would be within every prospective vassal's remit to repudiate you or indeed anyone else who failed to be mindful of their duties in the first place. You encourage it in fact, you write the law so that it will be followed, even by yourself, not so that it will merely be more convenient to you but negatively impact everyone else. Such is a path paved to Hell.
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Mar 23, 2020 at 6:02 AM, finished with 55 posts and 19 votes.
  • [X] Dragons and Demagogues
    -[X] Talking about greater threats seems a bit lackluster, for however much it worked with those who were ignorant of the problems plaguing people on a wider scope, Lord Uller does not seem ignorant about the happenings of the world.
    -[X] Since it is the case that at this point, anyone who isn't turning you away at the door has agreed, at least in principle, with the conceit that there is something of worth behind accepting a King who isn't just a "first among equals" that Aegon's laxity in setting up further institutions had made the Iron Throne's current chair warmer.
    -[X] This does not mean that everyone agrees the level of power which the Crown wields should rise back to even the times where Aegon himself could be reasonably certain that he could cow the nobility into following his commands, or else the first King Viserys who could content himself with being maneuvered around politically but never blatantly countermanded.
    -[X] You on the other hand have no interest in creating compromises in your authority, not when a fiend or other threats have used smaller cracks to make a terminal cancer out of any organization before. You can't allow Lords to run wild and plot and scheme while allowing interlopers to further poison the well of good will and cause harm to all for their interference.
    -[X] You think that there is this belief that even with greater threats on the horizon, the Lords can use the King to act as a mediator and settle the problems themselves with their current resources once he has achieved a baseline agreement with his vassals, and it's just that Robert has no interest in that role which is stopping them from doing so.
    -[X] Or else on a local level a belief that they can isolate Dorne (or any of the other Kingdoms) from the rest of the world's problems and using the same microcosm of the above, just replace "King" with "Prince" where appropriate.
    -[X] This is false. All great states you care to name operate on similar principles and have weathered tribulations far greater than Westeros has experienced since ancient times, yet from those times you are aware, for all their great works, nothing of their civilizations remain.
    -[X] Dornish culture has more in common with that of the Rhoynar than the First Men, or even the Andals come to that, as a consequence to the troubles which have plagued them for the last thousand years or more, yet none of those things have anything in common with Hell who has reigned supreme over the Planes for who knows how long, or the realms of Genies who have seen even more ancient polities cast down into dust and carry the emblems and heirlooms from those times still like an heir turned old and grey, but still remembering what was.
    -[X] You have a dream of a world which is safe, rich and from which its people can pursue their interests within the confines of the law, while the same structures which supports this state of affairs keeps them in check with the commiserate power granted to them.
    -[X] This is not simply a direct consequence of your actions, so much as a consequence of what newfound agency of the lower classes, of extreme economic inequality slackening and the greater personal power of magic landing in the hands of those who were not raised from birth with the common expectation of authority backing them from the start.
    -[X] If you do not create these structures for them to settle into, they will forcibly enact their own, which will leave everyone bloodied and weak, something that, as Lord Uller already knows, cannot be afforded.
    -[X] Moreover, a strong leader at the top creates a unifying icon from which all heads will turn and take inference from. A man from the streets rising to the halls of power does not just face a Lord who has obstructed him and the challenge of casting him down for their own gain, but instead contends with the notion that he faces yourself.
    -[X] It is one thing to grasp that a Lord is just a man who has been entrusted with power, that they can be attacked socially, economically or militarily, but it is quite another to consider the same of a Dragon who's every breath is death and every word honeyed gold. Moreso when every arm of state, from the Inquisition to the Administration and the Scholarum, is conferred their authority by you.
    -[X] So the Crown is the State and vice versa, both of which have feudal obligations not only in achieving peace and prosperity for their vassals, but also their subjects, or as you prefer, citizens. The Citizens simply have a stake in the same, adding one more link to the chain unbroken.
    -[X] There is of course the concern that you should prove inadequate to meet those obligations, which would flow ever downwards into everything you touched, or else that you should make yourself into a tyrant... but you have a hatred for tyrants and an intense aversion to corruption, and it would be within every prospective vassal's remit to repudiate you or indeed anyone else who failed to be mindful of their duties in the first place. You encourage it in fact, you write the law so that it will be followed, even by yourself, not so that it will merely be more convenient to you but negatively impact everyone else. Such is a path paved to Hell.
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Part MMMCDVIII: Pledges and Secrets
  • Threadmarks
    • Pledges and Secrets ​

    Twenty Second Day of the Twelfth Month 293 AC

    The first answer that comes to your lips is one you have used countless times before, speaking of greater threats and war enduring on an almost unimaginable scale, but that seems lackluster considering the man before you. The Lord of Hellholt is not ignorant of the happenings of the world. "You do not object to the concept of kingship, do you my lord?" you ask after a moment. "I do not mean merely someone to wear a circle of metal around their brow or keep the Iron Throne warm. Aegon's negligence arranged for just that and the ultimate fruit of that decision is slowly fermenting in his own resentment in King's Landing."

    Lord Uller laughs but the jape does not distract him. "In matters of kings the failings of men can all too easily be mistaken for those of laws, Your Grace. There have been fairer kings than Robert Baratheon and wiser ones."

    "And what might those fairer wiser rulers do if they lack the tools to face the world?" you ask simply. "Granted not all agree that the power of the king should be restored to the heights that Aegon held, or even the first Viserys whom lords could plot against but never truly countermand. Shall we then all count upon the goodwill and wisdom of each and every lord to move with all the skill and often all the haste that is needed?"

    "The Tyroshi were not that foolish you know, my lord," Dany interjects. "The archon was a fool, yes, but many of the lesser functionaries of his court and city were kept on. Yet I do not think I have to recount the fate that Tyrosh almost came to."

    "So then is it enough to have a mediator king so long as he is competent? If Dorne could be made safe behind its mountains and its deserts, would it be prosperous? I have not found such a state in all my travels, only those which function by the same principles I have outlined. They have endured tribulations greater than any Westeros has faced since ancient times. Of those times, my lord, only ruin and grave goods remain crumbling among the sands," you motion to the bronze belt buckle he bears wrought in the familiar angular style of the First Men, doubtlessly the fruit of some treasure-seeking expedition.

    "We have done well enough to far, in no small part through your aid of course, Your Grace, yet that which you could provide Dorne in secret is less than you could as king upon the Iron Throne," the old lord notes. "Why change so much so swiftly when in the turning of the realm, as in those of the wheel, that which suits the journey ill is worn smooth?"

    "Because as in the mountain passes the journey has just taken a hard turn and if we do not follow it swiftly ahead lies a precipice," you counter one simile with another, hopefully not too glibly for the words are true "Dornish culture has more in common with that of the Rhoynar than the First Men, or even the Andals come to that, as a consequence to the troubles which have plagued them for the last thousand years or more, yet none of those things have anything in common with Hell which has held sway over the Planes for who knows how long, or the empires of the deathless genies who have seen even more ancient realms cast down into dust and carry the emblems and heirlooms from those times still like an heir turned old and grey, but still remembering what was."

    "Our realm is of this world and not some other place where earth and sky are turned about," Lord Uller points out though slowly, thoughtfully. "More magic there is in the world than was five years ago, but still less than in the realms where spirits reign "

    "More will come, the works of magic, the knowledge of its working pours more into the world day by day and by it are eased a thousand tasks, things of beauty and of grace worked. That will not be undone." You pause, considering your next words with utmost care for you have never spoken such to a lord of Westeros so bluntly yet it is clear Harmen Uller's mind already works along those paths. "As the tasks afforded to those counted here in the Seven Kingdoms smallfolk grow lesser in toil so shall their eyes rise to other matters. They will look upon the world and see themselves poor, scorned and without voice. If the law does not allow them to rise higher and speak louder than they shall seek to take that power for themselves and there shall be war none of us can afford."

    Unsurprisingly Lord Uller's expression is that of a man who has just bitten into a fruit to find it sour, or perhaps full of worms, but he does not speak against your conclusions reflexively as others of his standing might have done. "What is then to keep them from building their unsteady foolish scaffolding atop the stairs you have so generously laid out for them, Your Grace? If there is one truth I have found that can be applied to all men high and low, right and poor, it is ambition and as with heady wine the more you drink the more you crave it "

    "Easier to contemplate rebellion against a man than a dragon," you point out dryly, bringing the conversation almost full circle. "Easier do so so with a king who is merely lord over lords then one who stands with institutions of power and prestige at his back. So the Crown is the State and vice versa, both of which have feudal obligations not only in achieving peace and prosperity for their vassals, but also their subjects, or as you said citizens. The citizens simply have a stake in the same, adding one more link to the chain unbroken."

    "It always comes back to dragons with your House, doesn't it?" the Lord of Hellholt laughs. "No offense, Your Grace, but I will be more at ease when I know those 'wyverns' of yours outnumber the dragons and their riders." There is something in the words you are not hearing, something not at all lighthearted.

    Dany hears it too for she asks: "My lord, what has your House learned of dragons these past almost three centuries since Aegon came to Westerosi shores?"

    Seeing the lord open his mouth instantly to deny knowing anything you interject: "My lord, I will not lay any blame upon you for the deeds of your ancestors. I of all people can hardly make such judgements given all the evils my own father wrought."

    For a long moment there is silence, then Lord Uller answers softly, though the courtyard is empty of anyone save the four of you. "Not here."

    ***​

    Once the iron banded door of the chamber closes behind you, the wards flaring to life like a thousand fiery lights, you lay your own spells upon stone and wood to ensure that no word spoken here passed beyond these walls unbidden.

    "Queen Rhaenys did not survive Meraxes' fall before the walls of the Hellholt all those years past, as so many tales tell, but according to a family tale passed from one lord to his heirs the dragon did," Lord Uller pauses for though the words come quick enough to have been long considered the reality of sharing them is still troubling. "The beast perished not of its wounds, though that would have been only a matter of time... but by a sorcerer's dagger. What manner of hedge witch or wizard it was I do not know, only that the curse threatened the lives of the other dragons of Aegon's realm, Balerion and Vhagar. How much harm it could have truly done no one truly knew, only that it is said Queen Visenya felt it and knew it to be a true casting."

    "And so Aegon dared no further press into Dorne again least he lose all that he had already won, but this sorcerer dared not unleash his curse either lest the magic prove less than deadly and open House Uller and all of Dorne to retaliation," you finish shaken. You had not expected this conversation to lead to the unraveling of one of the most enduring mysteries of the conquest.

    "This blood mage, they didn't just lay a curse blindly did they?" Dany asks shrewdly. "They knew something of dragons and their riders, something that was passed on?"

    "'Dragons are fire, malice and rage. Mother's Mercy ward you from those that are wisdom also'," the old lord recited, the words almost a sigh in the still air. "My father, and as far as I know my grandfather, also thought the Mother mentioned in the warning was the face of the Seven, but for a sorcerer to invoke her I think it was likely that it was Mother Rhoyne, one of the Orphans before they lost much of the old ways perhaps."

    "So by the fact that you told us all this you decided we're not evil anyway?" Dany asks, breaking the somber mood.

    "Yes, I'll trust my own judgement before that of a long dead witch," Lord Uller replies. "Not that it means I'll follow blindly, but you are a fit king for these times, Your Grace."

    What do you do next?

    [] Speak to lord Uller more
    -[] Try to learn more about the mysterious mage
    -[] See if you can recover any of Meraxes' bones

    [] Learn what the others have managed in speaking to Lady Blackmont and Lord Gargalen

    [] Write in

    OOC: As you can imagine you guys got very good rolls there to get the lord to spill the secret, although in part it was the fact that he knows how divination works and he figured it would be best Viserys hear it from him.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • DragonParadox said:
    Not necessarily, all you know is that roughly three hundred years ago there was a mage who swore by Mother Rhyone at the Hellholt. then again even the current Orphans of the Greenblood swear by the Mother sometime. s
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    You said she was Fey, so it wouldn't surprise me if she ran away to the Feywild and is only just returning or something.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    Of Kings and Powers ​
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    @DragonParadox, there's weird stuff going on with the end of this update. Click the link, you'll see what I mean. It looks like a big copy-paste error of some sort.

    DragonParadox said:
    In Memory of Fire ​
    [...]

    Harmen Uller, Lord of the Hellholt, is a man who wears his four and sixty years proudly in every line of his aquiline face, but only a fool would mistake the greying beard and hair for a sign of frailty. He moves in the sparing (sparring?) ring with the economy of motion of one who has fought in three great wars under Westerosi banners and in the Disputed Lands in his youth. You recognize a water dancer's movements in the feints of his sword, but his opponent, a young knight of House Vaith, does not and so his own blade goes flying, leaving him with the old lord's blade at his throat.
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    Typo here.
     
    [X] Lost relics
    -[X] See what lore of the blood mage Lord Uller is willing to share, and whatever he knows of this curse
    -[X] See if you can recover any of Meraxes' bones
    --[X] Offer 10,000 IM (what we paid Lord Brune for Felzath Farseer's bones) and his choice of Valyrian Steel weapon in exchange
    -[X] Learn what the others have managed in speaking to Lady Blackmount and Lord Gargalen
     
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