Wasn't that the case to begin with, though?

We very pointedly killed any remaining sensible ones in Essaria long ago - the ones with GC right now almost all revel in slaughter, rape and pillaging in random order - and worship Tiamat, at that.

Even that kid whom we got with the asshole Fleshwarper isn't really flippable to our side at this point, not without dedicated diplomatic effort - and those in GC rn will need the same amount of care and Divination the ones we sent off to the Wall do.
As in, "the totally unacceptable" amount of resources/time/attention.

TLDR: They die, and that was a given for a while.
This on-screen sight of their assholishness is just that- an on-screen show of what was implied awhile.
To be fair, it wouldn't be the first time that we'd recruited from a previously thought unflippable enemy. For my part, I have different standards for mortals and outsiders because of differences in psychology and relative control over their own nature.

For mortals in cases like this, one of my evaluation points is how abstract the consequences of what they do are from their perspective. For a mercenary killing people for a reward isn't an unusual idea, so doing it on an alter might not seem so bad; especially if they don't really understand the consequences for the victim beyond death. Even when they do know, it's out of sight, which makes it easy to ignore.

None of this excuses anything, but to me there is a difference between doing this kind of thing with a visceral understanding and an superficial one. We have actual fiends on payroll that are less personally monstrous (and easier to reliably work with) than a mortal who has the capacity to be different and instead chose to cosplay as a demon.

I guess I was just catching up to the rest of the thread on this point, since I thought at least some of them would be regular asshole mortals and not monsters that haven't had a chance to rent an apartment in the lower planes yet.
 
Speaking of those Salloshi loremasters, now that we've done basically the same thing already with our ancestor, we could offer to do so for them. The mages would be just as powerful, minus the undead template, but their presence wouldn't be an active corruption of the world anymore either. And we could make up for any measly loss of CR through equipping them. Kind of hard to argue against that kind of pragmatism!
This would be insanely worthwhile. @DragonParadox, can we do this? We've already completed quite a few preliminary research projects with bringing ancient souls back to life, and the Salloshi Loremasters don't seem to have their souls damaged either.
 
There are a LARGE number of non high level undean in new Sarnor.

I do not think the mage would take the offer of ressurection without convincing them. To show solidarity with their undead kinfolk. As well as they seem to have... accepted their death? More a less?

They seem to be settling into a largely benevolent undead society, and I dont want to tip the scales with ressurection.

Also, yeah. I'm not willing to take what looks like a dedicated raiding force as a dipstick for an entire city states politics though.
 
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There are a LARGE number of non high level undean in new Sarnor.

I do not think the mage would take the offer of ressurection without convincing them. To show solidarity with their undead kinfolk. As well as they seem to have... accepted their death? More a less?

They seem to be settling into a largely benevolent indead society, and I dont want to tip the scales with ressurection.

Also, yeah. I'm not willing to take what looks like a dedicated raiding force as a dipstick for an entire city states politics though.
We could always ask to atleast fix that negative energy leakage of undead. That should go a long way.
 
There are a LARGE number of non high level undean in new Sarnor.

I do not think the mage would take the offer of ressurection without convincing them. To show solidarity with their undead kinfolk. As well as they seem to have... accepted their death? More a less?

They seem to be settling into a largely benevolent undead society, and I dont want to tip the scales with ressurection.

Also, yeah. I'm not willing to take what looks like a dedicated raiding force as a dipstick for an entire city states politics though.
Most Undead don't really want to be Undead, even if they revel in their condition and power when they have no other options. If offered a genuine return to life, very few Neutral Evil Undead would turn that down, I would expect.
 
There are a LARGE number of non high level undean in new Sarnor.

I do not think the mage would take the offer of ressurection without convincing them. To show solidarity with their undead kinfolk. As well as they seem to have... accepted their death? More a less?

They seem to be settling into a largely benevolent undead society, and I dont want to tip the scales with ressurection.

Also, yeah. I'm not willing to take what looks like a dedicated raiding force as a dipstick for an entire city states politics though.
Personally I still want to create my undead resurrection Weirwood.

You know the tree I dreamt up, that extract an undeads soul, place the undeads soul in an animal, and permanently(unless dispelled) Polymorph the animal into human form.

The idea is 2 undead enters and sacrifice themselves to the Weirwood, the old gods flip a coin, and the winner get resurrected in this manner, while the loser is sent on to the Afterlife.

Powerful undead can of course make sure they will be the one resurrected, by bringing a normal sacrifice instead of doing it with another undead, and can buy a soulless body in the Flesh Forge, instead of the cut rate method, that's using a polymorphed animal.
 
Most Undead don't really want to be Undead, even if they revel in their condition and power when they have no other options. If offered a genuine return to life, very few Neutral Evil Undead would turn that down, I would expect.
They will stay undead if they think starvation, plague, negative energy radiation, and roving shadow monsters will eat them.

Like remember why Garins sister wanted to stay a vampire?

It's easy to prey upon fear and uncertainty. Even easier for the undead who know nothing of their condition or how the afterlife might function.
 
They will stay undead if they think starvation, plague, negative energy radiation, and roving shadow monsters will eat them.

Like remember why Garins sister wanted to stay a vampire?

It's easy to prey upon fear and uncertainty. Even easier for the undead who know nothing of their condition or how the afterlife might function.

Here are the three options I have for any and all sentient undead in Sarnor. Either
A) Take the offer of Resurrection and become a person.
B) Take the offer of being undead with no Negative energy leakage
C) Go to a tree and die for good

I will not compromise on this stance. God know what they have already done to Sarnor with their negative energy bullshit. I wouldn't be surprised if that entire region regularly resurrects the dead and kills all crops and livestock on a monthly basis.

As for the unsentients...trees, murder, and sacrifice.
 
Here are the three options I have for any and all sentient undead in Sarnor. Either
A) Take the offer of Resurrection and become a person.
B) Take the offer of being undead with no Negative energy leakage
C) Go to a tree and die for good

I will not compromise on this stance. God know what they have already done to Sarnor with their negative energy bullshit. I wouldn't be surprised if that entire region regularly resurrects the dead and kills all crops and livestock on a monthly basis.

As for the unsentients...trees, murder, and sacrifice.
That's nice.

It's also so undiplomatic that I wanted to disagree with you on principle.

So maybe let someone else word that?
 
There are a LARGE number of non high level undean in new Sarnor.

I do not think the mage would take the offer of ressurection without convincing them. To show solidarity with their undead kinfolk. As well as they seem to have... accepted their death? More a less?

They seem to be settling into a largely benevolent undead society, and I dont want to tip the scales with ressurection.

Also, yeah. I'm not willing to take what looks like a dedicated raiding force as a dipstick for an entire city states politics though.
Well, we do know from those undead scholars that a large portion of the Sarnori are being gathered under the banner of undead lords who want to unify themselves and their living descendants under an undead king. I'm pretty sure "and then purge all Dothraki" was in the plan somewhere as well, but I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics of that conversation.

The sort of nice ones aren't really that much better an example of the Sarnori than these raiders.

Personally I still want to create my undead resurrection Weirwood.

You know the tree I dreamt up, that extract an undeads soul, place the undeads soul in an animal, and permanently(unless dispelled) Polymorph the animal into human form.

The idea is 2 undead enters and sacrifice themselves to the Weirwood, the old gods flip a coin, and the winner get resurrected in this manner, while the loser is sent on to the Afterlife.

Powerful undead can of course make sure they will be the one resurrected, by bringing a normal sacrifice instead of doing it with another undead, and can buy a soulless body in the Flesh Forge, instead of the cut rate method, that's using a polymorphed animal.
This requires trust, good will towards anything at all, and rational thought from the undead. The only ones pulling something close to that off right now are the ghosts of mages who've bound themselves to their old place of power. Specifically mages from a tradition with the lore to conceive of the warforged. Even if it required an extraplanar material that still implies a knowledge of the soul that's probably helping them significantly.

The other undead are less likely to be easy to negotiate with, and even less likely to trust us.
 
Of course. I am being blunt tbh. I say it how it is and the rest of the flowery language is a later problem. As it comes up.
Can we actually just get rid of the leakage and call it a day? The others are a thing, and they have significant power over the dead. We'd effectively be trusting the sentient Sarnori to remain in complete control of themselves and all their mindless kin in the face of a force practically built to screw them over.
 
Can we actually just get rid of the leakage and call it a day? The others are a thing, and they have significant power over the dead. We'd effectively be trusting the sentient Sarnori to remain in complete control of themselves and all their mindless kin in the face of a force practically built to screw them over.

Do you mean the leakage or the source of said leakage? If the former then that is a problem because the source is still there. If the source is there we are just passing the ball along to the next time it hits critical mass. Also we haven't stress-tested undead control of the Others on our future undead. Qyburn said it can throw them off but I don't believe it till I see it. We should be doing that to make sure that Sarnor isn't a ticking time bomb also. I would want to do that before we decide to take harsher actions.
 
Like @egoo said, it's technically already in progress, or at least the previous Cold War is starting to warm up a bit, as the Deep Ones try to infiltrate their meat puppet assets into the populace of various nations.

We're actively screening for them now, with our Aberration detecting pearls and the first order of Crystal Masks of Detect Psionics, but we have a lot of ground to cover. There will be many more Detect Psionics items available after we pick up our commissions next month, which will allow us to speed the process up considerably. Other lands aren't going to be so lucky, unfortunately.

As for a timetable to outright conflict, it's unlikely to be more than two or three months from now. It's why we're scrambling to hire mercs, build strategic weapons and defenses, and churn out or purchase so many servitor creatures.

We've discussed and brainstormed additional Flesh and Fungal Forge creations, but nothing has been firmly decided upon yet. Feel free to make suggestions, though.

We don't have the Suzerain template, unfortunately. Gilded Sea Serpents would still make a good chassis to build upon, though. Advancing them to 12 HD (+7) gets them to CR 10, then add Advanced, Sorcerer Creature, and Half-Dragon bringing them to CR 15, makes them effective spellcasters, and beefs them up so they can mix it up in melee very well. And while it wouldn't have 31 Charisma, 27 is still pretty good.

On the topic of Sea Serpents, if we take a Spitting Sea Serpent and advance it to 15 HD (+3) to raise them up to CR 10, then add the Advanced, Druid Creature, and Half-Dragon templates to bring them up to CR 15, we could make some very nice Snakey Druids. Each would be able to cast 5th level Druid spells, not to mention 3rd level Venomfire. Venomfire on these guys would be awesome, since they already have a very effective acidic poison which they can spit up to 60 feet as often as twice per round using the Rapid Shot. That range can be extended by feat or spell, as can the uses per round.

We don't have Suzerain? The second forge was supposed to have any Charisma based templates. Those other options seem alright. Any thoughts on the Splinter Drake as a base creature?
 
That's a rather gross attitude. What about the undead peasants toiling away eternally at barren fields? Performing a hollow imitation of what they did in life?

Are they terrible criminals who deserve to be destroyed?

You could make a good argument they are better off in the afterlife, and an equally good one they are better off far, far away from the afterlife.

Tarring an entire nation with a single brush seems... hasty? Who can say what internal politics split the kingdom.

To say nothing of the fact leveraging their internal politics is usually our first move anyway.
I'm not tarring them exactly, more extrapolating from what they've told us and what we know of undead. As natural undead, the sarnori were resurrected through the metaphysical power of their pain and hatred for the Dothraki.The weak willed ones came back mindless, and the strong willed ones came back with a goal. There are no undead peasants tilling away at fields that just want to be left alone to perform a parody of their old lives.

The mages are the unusual ones here in that they want something more than they want revenge. The others didn't have the benefit of magical and mental training to give them more perspective on what happened to them.
 
We don't have Suzerain? The second forge was supposed to have any Charisma based templates. Those other options seem alright. Any thoughts on the Splinter Drake as a base creature?

Not all of them. Bard creature is missing also. We have to ask on a case-by-case basis...although I am tempted to try something. Probably during the next planning session.

EDIT: The one after Tiamat.
 
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I'm not tarring them exactly, more extrapolating from what they've told us and what we know of undead. As natural undead, the sarnori were resurrected through the metaphysical power of their pain and hatred for the Dothraki.The weak willed ones came back mindless, and the strong willed ones came back with a goal. There are no undead peasants tilling away at fields that just want to be left alone to perform a parody of their old lives.

The mages are the unusual ones here in that they want something more than they want revenge. The others didn't have the benefit of magical and mental training to give them more perspective on what happened to them.
Apologies, my words were chosen poorly.

I agree in essence. Sorry again.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 22, 2019 at 11:29 AM, finished with 39 posts and 15 votes.
 
Part MMMCCXLVII: Of Ink and Stripes
Of Ink and Stripes

Twenty Seventh Day of the Eleventh Month 293 AC

There isn't much of a choice to be made as far as you are concerned. More knowledge is always useful, all the more so for coming from a unique source. Still, that is no reason to be careless, as a physical copy might be traced. You could use magic to copy it, but all the means you can think do to so would be either laborious or too noticeable to cast in sight of a trained mage from which you wish to hide your power. So instead you take the books with care, one by one to pass into a more common enchanted bag rather than your cloak, though you have no intention that they travel any further than Trader Town.

***​

Mereth has not had much luck tracing down any Yi Tish histories in the market, finding only texts that deal with the past four hundred years. 'A mere drop in the ocean', as three of the merchants had reminded her while offering to search further, for a commission of course. "Two of them were trying to cheat me and the third one was a fool," she explains dryly.

"And none of them are dead," Aradia says with an unexpected flash of dry humor.

For a wonder, the fury does not seem to mind it, a brief flicker of amusement in her dark eyes before continuing her account of what they had acquired. Among their purchases are books on the worship of the Fates and Fortunes, subtly different from what might be found in Yin or the central provinces, and the prize of the whole collection, a military manual for the Yi Tish army from the time of Bu Gai's grandfather that deals with every aspect of strategy and tactics in the armies of the Golden Empire from the six man squad to vast hosts of hundreds of thousands strong, though the notes on the latter are more about how to feed them and keep them from all dying of camp fever.

Unfortunately, when it comes to the making of rice paper there are no written accounts to be found. The routine work of craftsmen is rarely counted important enough to document, though fortunately it is not a guild secret such as one might find in Westeros or eastern Essos, so it should be possible to simply pay someone skilled in the task to demonstrate. Finding and hiring a paper-maker, however, was rather beyond Mereth's remit and the time available.

Library Improved

Knowledge (History) +3
Knowledge (Geography) +2
Knowledge (Mathematics) +1
Knowledge (Religion) +2
Knowledge (War) +5

Note: Includes the books acquired in Yin last month.

Lost 4,600 IM

The small herd of a dozen zorses had, by contrast, been quite easy to find, the spirited beasts eager to be on their way. It does mean you will have to ride them out of the city for quite a while before you can reasonably vanish into the open plains. Hopefully, no bandits decide to strike at such a seemingly small and ill-protected group of travelers, leaving you yet more evidence to handle. One of the black and white beasts decides to take advantage of your distraction to try to bite you. It does not succeed, much to its confusion.

"See, I taste terrible," you point out reasonably, to a reluctant smile from Aradia and a suspicious silence from Merelth that one might almost mistake for swallowing a laugh.


Gained 12 Zorses

Lost 600 IM


Before you leave, you copy all the lore Pol Ning An had given you with a wish and return the originals, likely leaving her with the impression that you had used petty magics or perhaps some enchantment to copy each and every page. Thus, the last of your business in Trader Town finished, just in time for your more optimistic estimate. You head back to your own lands, for there are still a few more loose ends to untangle before the month is out.

What do you do next?

[] Look over the marriage and inheritance laws of the Empire

[] Offer a sacrifice to the Old Gods to empower the Well of Souls

[] Have a personal meeting with the Chosen of Smith

[] Speak to the Mallery brothers and see if you can contact Mother Earth through the younger of the two

[] Find and deal with the wisps that caused you headaches in the Braavosi swamps

[] Write in


OOC: I initially had Viserys blood-wish copy the tomes in front of Ning but that felt the sort of mistake that would not make sense for him so I went with him doing it out of sight. I hope it is not too narratively clunky.
 
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Previous Library:
Knowledge (Alchemy) +18
Knowledge (Arcana) +28
Knowledge (Architecture) +14
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +15
Knowledge (Economics) +14
Knowledge (Geography) +21
Knowledge (History) +36
Knowledge (Law) +16
Knowledge (Mathematics) +9
Knowledge (Nature) +14
Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +11
Knowledge (Psionics) +3
Knowledge (Religion) +24
Knowledge (The Planes) +24
Knowledge (War) +12
Profession (Trade) +5

Bound Tomes of Knowledge (For ritual use): Religion and Planes +10

Additions from Yin and Trader Town:
Knowledge (History) +3
Knowledge (Geography) +2
Knowledge (Mathematics) +1
Knowledge (Religion) +2
Knowledge (War) +5

Note: Includes the books squired in Yin last month.

Updated Library:
Knowledge (Alchemy) +18
Knowledge (Arcana) +28
Knowledge (Architecture) +14
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +15
Knowledge (Economics) +14
Knowledge (Geography) +23
Knowledge (History) +39
Knowledge (Law) +16
Knowledge (Mathematics) +10
Knowledge (Nature) +14
Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +11
Knowledge (Psionics) +3
Knowledge (Religion) +26
Knowledge (The Planes) +24
Knowledge (War) +17
Profession (Trade) +5

Bound Tomes of Knowledge (For ritual use): Religion and Planes +10
 
Previous Library:


Additions from Yin and Trader Town:


Updated Library:
Knowledge (Alchemy) +18
Knowledge (Arcana) +28
Knowledge (Architecture) +14
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +15
Knowledge (Economics) +14
Knowledge (Geography) +23
Knowledge (History) +39
Knowledge (Law) +16
Knowledge (Mathematics) +10
Knowledge (Nature) +14
Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +11
Knowledge (Psionics) +3
Knowledge (Religion) +26
Knowledge (The Planes) +24
Knowledge (War) +17
Profession (Trade) +5

Bound Tomes of Knowledge (For ritual use): Religion and Planes +10

Updated, thanks.
 
[X] Find and deal with the wisps that caused you headaches in the Braavosi swamps
I kinda want to do this now, just because.
 
@DragonParadox, there are a few choice pieces of lore I'm hoping to get from Yi Ti.

1. Their histories, as much as we can get our hands on, including their Nobility/Royalty lore. I want everything they've got on all dynasties current and prior, all the way back to the Gemstone Emperors of the Great Empire of the Dawn.
2. Detailed maps of the Far East. We looked in Braavos and Volantis and understandably their maps east of the Bone Mountains aren't quite accurate. Now that we've got a foothold here can we start buying high quality maps en mass of all the various cities and the region as a whole? I'm sure we can find military officials to bribe for their topography maps if it comes to it.
3. Everything on their religions and their magical creatures.

Mind you, I don't expect this now. I'm hoping for it when our Grand Expedition Fleet docks in Yin.
 
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