@Azel, our Elemental Wyrmlings cost us 500 IM each to enchant.
Elemental Wyrmling
LN Small Construct
Init 0, Senses Darkvision 120ft, Blindsense 60ft; Perception +10

Defense
AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 16 (+1 size, +2 Dexterity, +5 natural)
HP 45 (6d10+12)
Fort -, Ref +6, Will +5
DR 5/Adamantine
Immune construct traits, to choosen element
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 5th)
At will - Elemental Darts (as choosen element)

Offense
Speed 40ft, burrow 20ft, fly 100ft. (average)
Melee bite +8 (1d6+2), 2 claws +8 (1d4+1)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.; 10ft. with bite
Special Attacks: breath weapon (30-ft cone, DC 15 Reflex, 2d8 of choosen element

Statistics
Str 14, Dex 14, Con -, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +6;
Feats Alertness, Power Attack
Skills Spot +10, Intimidate +10, Listen +10, Stealth +6 (+4 from size)
Language: Common, Draconic

Seemingly a heavy piece of armor for a freshly hatched dragon, this construct is filled by swirling energies of a single element.

Construction
Requirements Craft Construct, Craft Magical Arms and Armor, Elemental Darts, Lesser Geas; Cost a custom made platemail worth 500 GP, 2000 GP
How would the cost be affected for a Construct with identical stats and abilities, minus the breath weapon and Elemental Dart SLA?
 
Disagreeing with Viserys methods and priorities is not a sign of stupidity.

Other people have other thoughts on the what and how of fixing the state of the universe. Sometimes these opinions and ideas wildly diverge from one another.

Bahamut has had millennia. If those ideas were going to work, we wouldn't be in the dire straits we are now and wouldn't have the Long Night about to hit us like a freight train.

This isn't about disagreeing with Viserys' methods, this is about results, and Bahamut reeks of Lawful Stupid, IMO. Good understands what compromise means.
 
Did some research for my "Fuck this shit I'm out" contingency plan and, um, got some bad news for you folks.

Now I don't know if Azel and DP are following the "canon" description of the Pathfinder Cosmology to the letter, but if what I've read is true then the gist of it is the P.O.B., Planetos itself? That's the core of the multiverse, or at least as close as the core as it involves us at any rate. (Other planets in this level of reality could also be considered the core, but seeing as we're not working on a space program with ftl capabilities at the moment the point is rather moot.)

We are, quite literally, at the heart of creation. If the P.O.B. falls, if the cracks reach here, if we can't stem the tide, everything dies.

So, to recap, there is no bunker to run to, we were born in it.

There is no wasteland to hide in, they have already been consumed by the enemy.

There is no place to escape to, the bastions are already overrun.

If Planetos falls that's the first domino on the cascade to complete and total, multi-universal, annihilation.

We can try to run, but we'd only die tired.

And now I need a drink, because the screams have turned into broken sobbing.
 
Don't get me wrong, @Azel, I don't expect Bahamut to suddenly jump into bed with us, but if good ol' grandpa is indeed "1000 times worse" than Lucan, what else can I assume other than the Bahamut here is Lawful Stupid?
 
Bahamut has had millennia. If those ideas were going to work, we wouldn't be in the dire straits we are now and wouldn't have the Long Night about to hit us like a freight train.

This isn't about disagreeing with Viserys' methods, this is about results, and Bahamut reeks of Lawful Stupid, IMO. Good understands what compromise means.
To give him the benefit of the doubt, there is no telling what he has attempted over the past several thousand years. He could have lead crusades against the power that shattered Heaven. There might not be any Metallics left because too many of them died trying to assist him. If he's still alive while Heaven remains shattered and Hell occupies the remnants, it's almost certain that he has given up or spent so much of his strength that he has nothing left to give. Either way, I have no desire to interact with him, but I won't automatically assume the worst about his character.
 
To give him the benefit of the doubt, there is no telling what he has attempted over the past several thousand years. He could have lead crusades against the power that shattered Heaven. There might not be any Metallics left because too many of them died trying to assist him. If he's still alive while Heaven remains shattered and Hell occupies the remnants, it's almost certain that he has given up or spent so much of his strength that he has nothing left to give. Either way, I have no desire to interact with him, but I won't automatically assume the worst about his character.

Weren't the Metallics wiped out by Tiamat and/or the Chromatics?

That said, if he did indeed lead crusades, and they accomplished squat shit, then surely after all these millennia he should have had some realization that his methods aren't working?
 
Disagreeing with Viserys methods and priorities is not a sign of stupidity.

Other people have other thoughts on the what and how of fixing the state of the universe. Sometimes these opinions and ideas wildly diverge from one another.
Keep hammering. It'll get through to them eventually.

Did some research for my "Fuck this shit I'm out" contingency plan and, um, got some bad news for you folks.

Now I don't know if Azel and DP are following the "canon" description of the Pathfinder Cosmology to the letter, but if what I've read is true then the gist of it is the P.O.B., Planetos itself? That's the core of the multiverse, or at least as close as the core as it involves us at any rate. (Other planets in this level of reality could also be considered the core, but seeing as we're not working on a space program with ftl capabilities at the moment the point is rather moot.)

We are, quite literally, at the heart of creation. If the P.O.B. falls, if the cracks reach here, if we can't stem the tide, everything dies.

So, to recap, there is no bunker to run to, we were born in it.

There is no wasteland to hide in, they have already been consumed by the enemy.

There is no place to escape to, the bastions are already overrun.

If Planetos falls that's the first domino on the cascade to complete and total, multi-universal, annihilation.

We can try to run, but we'd only die tired.

And now I need a drink, because the screams have turned into broken sobbing.
@Evaunit02mark1 Asmodeus and pals were immigrants to golarion.

Their previous universe dies, and they all hopped on a big boat and fucked off to find a new reality to live in.

That's probably his plan... D?

F? IDK.

Edit: @Goldfish he could very well achieved vast ocean loads of good. We don't know, and it wouldn't be super noticable at the moment if he had.
 
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Weren't the Metallics wiped out by Tiamat and/or the Chromatics?

That said, if he did indeed lead crusades, and they accomplished squat shit, then surely after all these millennia he should have had some realization that his methods aren't working?
Or at least realized that he's all out of Dragons and needs new methods because his usual stuff relied on them.
 
Weren't the Metallics wiped out by Tiamat and/or the Chromatics?

That said, if he did indeed lead crusades, and they accomplished squat shit, then surely after all these millennia he should have had some realization that his methods aren't working?

Gods are kind of... Statics

If Bahamut is not weakened by losing his worshipers he sure loses his means of adaptation.

If he was an asshole, well everyone is an asshole if you compare then to their Bronze Age equivalents
 
Weren't the Metallics wiped out by Tiamat and/or the Chromatics?

That said, if he did indeed lead crusades, and they accomplished squat shit, then surely after all these millennia he should have had some realization that his methods aren't working?
I'm not sure how you accomplished the miracle of having this discussion without it ending in seething rage, but it might be best not to try your luck.

As much as I agree with you, the best you're likely to get from this is "try to convince people next main turn" which just means to shut up and stop talking about it.

I really just feel like nothing productive is going to come from continuing this line of discussion (in thread at least), so it's better to just stop bothering.

Or maybe I'm just a little bitter, I dunno.
 
@DragonParadox @Azel So when people that don't believe or follow any God's in particular; their souls have a chance to be diverted to a hell of some sort?

I thought there was an update that confirmed when people die they just vanish into the ether.
 
how you accomplished the miracle of having this discussion without it ending in seething rage

Might be because I'm generally a pretty mellow guy.

Really, I'm just tryin' to get Azel(and maybe DP) to maybe consider that Good is not incapable of compromise, even a bitter old bastard like grandpa. If it doesn't work and Bahamut is just doomed to forever wander the Planes and not do much of import, then so be it, it's no skin off my back. Least I'd tried, right?
 
@DragonParadox @Azel So when people that don't believe or follow any God's in particular; their souls have a chance to be diverted to a hell of some sort?

I thought there was an update that confirmed when people die they just vanish into the ether.

Heaven and Hell are two magnets.

Old way, you did good you go up, you did bad you go down. A little sin didn't matter because if you did enough good you still floated up.

Shit got fucked. There is no up now.

You've got two choices, down or oblivion.

And the Devils get a vote.
 
So does anyone else think we should reanimate the astral dreadnaught and use it as an dumptruck for harvesting souls from the astral pane and dropping them off somewhere?

I'm imagining the devas face when we present him with that and it makes me giggle.
 
Bahamut has had millennia. If those ideas were going to work, we wouldn't be in the dire straits we are now and wouldn't have the Long Night about to hit us like a freight train.

This isn't about disagreeing with Viserys' methods, this is about results, and Bahamut reeks of Lawful Stupid, IMO. Good understands what compromise means.
Some people just have different priorities, as we saw with Heaven doing the "right" thing and failing may be preferable to doing what is necessary at the cost of your morality to succeed (mind you I'm not one of these people, but I'm told they exist).

This isn't a sign that they're unintelligent, look at Lucan he's pious to an almost fanatical degree but if he was stupid we wouldn't have had as much trouble as we did. And gods tend to be more set in their ways than mortals.
 
Reading through all of this, something occurred to me: While Azel's told us all of this about Bahamut, Viserys still only has his earlier brief impression to go off of, as far as I know. Given the circumstances, I'd be surprised if he didn't reach out to at least try and contact another possible ally, even if we have reason to believe it might not come to anything.
 
Reading through all of this, something occurred to me: While Azel's told us all of this about Bahamut, Viserys still only has his earlier brief impression to go off of, as far as I know. Given the circumstances, I'd be surprised if he didn't reach out to at least try and contact another possible ally, even if we have reason to believe it might not come to anything.

Idly you ask them of strange hints from your dreams... of the Deciver and the dragon-thing with scales of gold. At first it seems like this too shall be another matter in which, for all their good will, then the gold-clad giant rumbles a single word that sends a shiver of atavistic recognition down your spine: "Bahamut..."

Something deep in your gut warns you that is not a name to conjure by for one of your legacy. Knowing as you do the root of those instincts you wonder if you should act against them.

For now however another more immediate riddle presents itself. What questions to ask the bones of your vanquished foes
Everything that is a chromatic dragon in Viserys says it is a terrible idea.

Viserys is lukewarm as to whether or not it is a terrible idea.

I suspect it is likely a terrible idea.

Though we might learn about some nastiness we didn't already know about.

More likely would be him yelling at us a lot and then planeshifting away.
 
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Everything that is a chromatic dragon in Viserys says it is a terrible idea.

Viserys is lukewarm as to whether or not it is a terrible idea.

I suspect it is likely. Though we might learn about some nastiness we didn't already know about.
Thanks for finding the snippet! Personally, I feel that given what he's just learned, an instinctual mistrust (that he knows traces back to Tiamat) wouldn't be enough to stop him from reaching out, or at least trying to get more information about a possible ally who was around during all this. But if we're really set against it, I suppose that's an IC reason to not. It just feels like a weak one to me.
 
Checked up on Astral Deva and the passage of souls - but there are also the Monadic Deva, who meddle in the inner planes, a possible contact - especially when you're already meddling there. There should be some remnants in hidden redoubts, even on the positive and negative planes. Perhaps a lead to adding Water to the alliance...?

What of the four elemental lords? Are the good ones imprisoned? Four ready made quests, if so.
 
Unbelievable, it's still being considered even after we have GM confirmation on how unwilling Bahamut is to work with us. I for one do not want to waste time on getting burned.


@TalonofAnathrax you have me convinced on the usefulness of being able to Rebuke creatures made of Fire. Straight Cleric for Vaela it is.
 
Thanks for finding the snippet! Personally, I feel that given what he's just learned, an instinctual mistrust (that he knows traces back to Tiamat) wouldn't be enough to stop him from reaching out, or at least trying to get more information about a possible ally who was around during all this. But if we're really set against it, I suppose that's an IC reason to not. It just feels like a weak one to me.
It's not a weak reason at all. We literally have confirmation from Azel and DP that Bahamut would be extremely difficult to work with, far more so than Lucan even. And that we would have to reform our ways to be acceptable to him, which would definitely include no longer working with our flock of Erinyes, no more blood sacrifices, no more feeding enemy corpses to the Fungal Forge, etc.

This translates to a hard pass for Bahamut.
 
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