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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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So... Lucan is basically the same as any other summoner who didn't understand what they were getting into and failed to instill basic safety protocols in their contract. Not an idiot just... uninformed and apparently failing his charisma check to convince Baelor his plan actually worked. Huh.
I'm thinking we start the next bit with something like "Perhaps, then, I should speak with Lucan himself. If he had another purpose for Baelor, one more peaceful, I would hear of it from his own lips." Because for all that this is going much, much better than last time, Danelle still isn't the main power here. We might also want to include something about judging whether that other purpose is, in fact, hostile. Otherwise letting Lucan's men go would be inherently stupid.
EDIT: also, going to sleep now. Was just staying up for the update.
 
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lancelot said:
Just how is Baelor seen among those who worship the seven? We know how the targaryens see him as a fucking lunatic, and we know how he's seen from our perspective. But how is he seen by the brothers and sisters who worship the seven and serve them?
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Interesting question. There is no single answer because the Faith is not monolithic. No one denies that he lived an exemplary life by the Seven (if perhaps too strict given the manner of his death) and he did raise the Great Sept which is the beating heart of the Faith. Also he instituted many laws to the benefit of the Faith and the smallfolk.

On the other hand many of the faithful regret that he had to live his life under the burden of a crown instead of following his true calling, they see him as one forced to sacrifice his own calling for realm and gods. On the negative side of things (less loud but still present) many quote Baelor's erratic naming of High Septons as proof that even the most pious men can err, hearing their own voice and thinking it that of the Seven and thus that maybe the king should not have had the power to interfere so openly in matters of the Faith.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Interesting question. There is no single answer because the Faith is not monolithic. No one denies that he lived an exemplary life by the Seven (if perhaps too strict given the manner of his death) and he did raise the Great Sept which is the beating heart of the Faith. Also he instituted many laws to the benefit of the Faith and the smallfolk.

On the other hand many of the faithful regret that he had to live his life under the burden of a crown instead of following his true calling, they see him as one forced to sacrifice his own calling for realm and gods. On the negative side of things (less loud but still present) many quote Baelor's erratic naming of High Septons as proof that even the most pious men can err, hearing their own voice and thinking it that of the Seven and thus that maybe the king should not have had the power to interfere so openly in matters of the Faith.
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Show compared to any targaryens point of view, or our point of you for that matter. Lucan's point of view on this Balor was that he was much more intelligent wise and benevolent than he really was, and that blind-spot came around and bit him so hard on the ass I don't have the words to describe it this early in the day. Is that about right?
 
lancelot said:
Show compared to any targaryens point of view, or our point of you for that matter. Lucan's point of view on this Balor was that he was much more intelligent wise and benevolent than he really was, and that blind-spot came around and bit him so hard on the ass I don't have the words to describe it this early in the day. Is that about right?
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I an't really speak for Lucan's PoV since Viserys does not know the man that well, they spoke once but it seems a fair guess that any pious Seven worshiper would consider him benevolent, his policies really did help people in many ways
 
Mind you that the view of Baelor is much better among the smallfolk then the nobility.

A random farmer knows him as "that really pious Targ king", which sounds pretty nice, while the higher social strata are more educated and thus remember more of his other antics.
 
DragonParadox said:
Since Viserys does not hold those gods in reverence I think pious might be a bit of a stretch (not that the Old Gods or Yss would even care).
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Yeah we aren't so much pious as friendly with the gods, we don't see them as higher beings, merely as beings we haven't quite caught up to yet(not that we plan to become a god, but we do plan to have power equal to a god)
 
Oh, shit. Am I slow for finally realizing the possibility that Lucan was sending Baelor to bring us to heel by dynastic authority? Because it fits.

"Behold! Here is the paragon of your line, sanctified in the light of the Seven, and he disapproves of your moral shortcomings. Unless you're truly beyond hope of redemption, it is your duty to respect the head of your house and mend your ways."

Lucan is a firm adherent of the idea of a celestial Hand that Guides the Flock, an elder brother that teaches and instructs and corrects errors from the perspective of greater insight and hard-won experience. When a powerful upstart starts recklessly breaking conventions and messing with Bad Things in service of the Greater Good, what do you do, especially when you think you need to make Viserys listen?

If you're Lucan, you get your phone out and call his dad.
 
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DragonParadox said:
She hesitates a moment as though considering if she should say anythign about the manner of that death and the permanence. She decides against it in the end. "He told me that Brother Lucan had called him to speak to be his emissary with the Lords of Westeros, as one who understands the Seven Kingdoms in a way that older souls could not. Alas that he did not see his own task thus. Upon learning of some of your doings he resolved to meet you in battle and so called down a terrible blessing from the Stranger's own hand..."

"History would seem to indicate that he would be a poor emissary," you note neutrally, the words 'stark raving mad' so loud in your thoughts you are almost concerned she might hear them. Dany gives a wordless mental snort of agreement."There is something she is not telling you..." she adds.
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Oh no. Danelle, no. Please no. I have a horrible, horrible feeling that she was the one who told him about us and set him against us. If that's the case, it's almost enough to make me feel sorry for her.

That aside, I think this is the point where we offer a true discussion between us and those Chosen present. In blunt terms, she can't promise us anything. Her and Lucan together, I think, might. I'll start building a vote, but what do people think of something along the lines of "Then I would speak with his summoner, if you could make it so. Not here or now, but this evening if it can be done. I will offer whatever oath of peace that might be necessary for such a thing to take place, so long as the same is given in return."

There's some other stuff to add on, but I just want to get to the actual negotiation here. Not have to hash out the same things first to Danelle and then to Lucan.

Thoughts?

@DragonParadox, @Azel does this seem like something Danelle would accept?
 
DragonParadox said:
That would a bit of persuasion if you are not willing to release all your hostages but it's posibile.
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I'm just not seeing releasing them as something Viserys would do. Lucan may, may not be our avowed enemy from what Danelle has just told us. Ok, that's fine. But that doesn't mean he isn't going to become one. I'd be fine with releasing one or two of them now (actually, how many did we take?), as a show of good faith, but certainly not all.

Another question my first reading of the update brought up, though. Summons are meant to be beholden to their summoner, we saw this with Roland. How was Baelor able to simply defy Lucan on this? I have a few guesses, but I'm not going to be...overly impressed with him if they end up being right.
 
Snowfire said:
I'm just not seeing releasing them as something Viserys would do. Lucan may, may not be our avowed enemy from what Danelle has just told us. Ok, that's fine. But that doesn't mean he isn't going to become one. I'd be fine with releasing one or two of them now (actually, how many did we take?), as a show of good faith, but certainly not all.

Another question my first reading of the update brought up, though. Summons are meant to be beholden to their summoner, we saw this with Roland. How was Baelor able to simply defy Lucan on this? I have a few guesses, but I'm not going to be...overly impressed with him if they end up being right.
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Keeping control of your summoned creature is an opposed test. Perhaps Lucan lost?
 
Snowfire said:
I'm just not seeing releasing them as something Viserys would do. Lucan may, may not be our avowed enemy from what Danelle has just told us. Ok, that's fine. But that doesn't mean he isn't going to become one. I'd be fine with releasing one or two of them now (actually, how many did we take?), as a show of good faith, but certainly not all.

Another question my first reading of the update brought up, though. Summons are meant to be beholden to their summoner, we saw this with Roland. How was Baelor able to simply defy Lucan on this? I have a few guesses, but I'm not going to be...overly impressed with him if they end up being right.
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That's fine. I'm not saying you should play Viserys one way or another, I'm just saying you will probably need to pass some checks.
 
Stuck at work again (running company-wide inventories sucks!), but I wanted to get some of my thoughts out there for consideration.

[] Plan TBD
-[] "Even the Old Valyrians, my unlamented ancestors, who committed atrocities you cannot likely imagine, had better sense than to Call beings from other Spheres whom they could not control."
-[] "I must admit, Lady Danelle, that it is quite worrisome to learn Lucan, the Chosen of the Father, could make so grave an error in judgement. Such an act would be considered criminal negligence within my realm."
-[] "There is much we have to discuss, and little of it pertains to Lucan Longfield, save that he too should hear what I have to say. I will gladly release his people, if he agrees to a peaceful parlay."
 
In my opinion, Lucan's decisions (whether or not he intended for them) has made him our enemy and it is up to him to show that he isn't either through reparations or negotiation. As Lucan's summon (and by extension Lucan) was the first to act against us, the onus is on him to make the first move to de-escalate. We would be held accountable for the actions of our Erinyes should they decide one day to randomly murder people, I don't see why this would not apply to Lucan.

Until this occurs, I am against releasing all the hostages for nothing in return.
 
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Snowfire said:
That aside, I think this is the point where we offer a true discussion between us and those Chosen present. In blunt terms, she can't promise us anything. Her and Lucan together, I think, might. I'll start building a vote, but what do people think of something along the lines of "Then I would speak with his summoner, if you could make it so. Not here or now, but this evening if it can be done. I will offer whatever oath of peace that might be necessary for such a thing to take place, so long as the same is given in return."
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Does that imply that we will leave after our current talk with Danelle? After all, the Dywen persona is burned - what do we do till evening?
 
Goldfish said:
Stuck at work again (running company-wide inventories sucks!), but I wanted to get some of my thoughts out there for consideration.

[] Plan TBD
-[] "Even the Old Valyrians, my unlamented ancestors, who committed atrocities you cannot likely imagine, had better sense than to Call beings from other Spheres whom they could not control."
-[] "I must admit, Lady Danelle, that it is quite worrisome to learn Lucan, the Chosen of the Father, could make so grave an error in judgement. Such an act would be considered criminal negligence within my realm. But that is another matter entirely, albeit not forgotten or simply forgiven."
-[] "There is much we have to discuss, and little of it pertains to Lucan Longfield, save that he too should hear what I have to say. I will gladly release his people, if he agrees to a peaceful parlay."
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This is fine. First point, "stop fucking summoning shit if you can't stop it from calling down Thermonuclear War templates". It's fair and valid, you basically risked us hunting you down and murdering your ass, one for setting something loose that had abilities that are nasty in an absolutely personal way, but also using someone related to us to do it. Do you realize how humiliating it is to have to clean up that mess over a century out of date, when it should have already passed beyond your concerns dynastically?

The crossed out line is just trying to turn an admonishment into something pointlessly preachy. We make the laws in our realm, it's not like someone isn't at least resistant enough to call some or most of them into question will care. We can field those complaints easily.
 
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