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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

Reader mode
[] Plan One but about it
-[] "An Angel of the Seven personally told me that Lucan could not be trusted to parley. This wasn't the one made from the twisted soul of my ancestor Baelor the Blessed and sent to murder me - this was yet another Angel, personally in Lucan's service."
-[] "I captured Lucan's companions without permanently harming them them, to see just how willingly they served him and to ensure that negotiating with Lucan would be possible in the first place. I truly regret that your own friends were involved. Rest assured, they will be released to you without expectations of service or recompense. You need not serve as my mouthpiece here in the Conclave to save your friends."
-[] "My interest is not in benefiting the Faith, Lady Danelle, but insuring the survival of those who live upon this planet, protecting them from all that would see them as little more than play things and cattle to be fed upon. The Seven have raised a champion against me, devoting time, effort, and resources towards eliminating me, while Devils and worse make Westeros their playground."

-[] "I have no reason to believe that Lucan would not seek to betray any alliance formed, or agree to any sort of truce, not after the attempt he made on my life. That said, I trust you were no way responsible for that?"
--[] Assuming she says yes, "Then perhaps you could ensure that doesn't happen. Would you be willing to swear before the Seven-that-are-One that a parley would be enforced, even if it meant having to fight Lucan?"
 
chryssalideater said:
[] Plan One but about it
-[] "An Angel of the Seven personally told me that Lucan could not be trusted to parley. This wasn't the one made from the twisted soul of my ancestor Baelor the Blessed and sent to murder me - this was yet another Angel, personally in Lucan's service."
-[] "I captured Lucan's companions without permanently harming them them, to see just how willingly they served him and to ensure that negotiating with Lucan would be possible in the first place. I truly regret that your own friends were involved. Rest assured, they will be released to you without expectations of service or recompense. You need not serve as my mouthpiece here in the Conclave to save your friends."
-[] "My interest is not in benefiting the Faith, Lady Danelle, but insuring the survival of those who live upon this planet, protecting them from all that would see them as little more than play things and cattle to be fed upon. The Seven have raised a champion against me, devoting time, effort, and resources towards eliminating me, while Devils and worse make Westeros their playground."

-[] "I have no reason to believe that Lucan would not seek to betray any alliance formed, or agree to any sort of truce, not after the attempt he made on my life. That said, I trust you were no way responsible for that?"
--[] Assuming she says yes, "Then perhaps you could ensure that doesn't happen. Would you be willing to swear before the Seven-that-are-One that a parley would be enforced, even if it meant having to fight Lucan?"
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Dude, your still retreading the previous update.
 
Snowfire said:
How exactly that comes across as the good compromise from the lines we had up to there I will never understand. She hadn't even mentioned her name at that point. And yet it's not even the moral quandary that is the problem. It's how it's being thrown at us, in a way that feels remarkably like bad faith. And yes, that's the phrase I mean. Maybe it's my being tired, but I am really not enjoying this "Oh and but suddenly" that's infected this entire action set. Lucan is suddenly not anything that the rumours showed him to be. At all. Not even slightly. All of them are completely wrong.

Wonderful.

Mind Blank doesn't actually work the way that we were left to assume it has for more than a year OOC. And the first sign we get of this is the vulnerability being used against us.

Can you not see how this looks?
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Dude, I appreciate it, but a basic reading of Lucan's first interlude makes it clear he's not really a monster.
 
brmj said:
I wonder if some kind of long term truce might be an atainable option. Lucan is our enemy, and I don't see any changing that, but he's an enemy who wants many of the same things and could be useful if kept focused elsewhere, so long as the faith militant doesn't get recreated. Danelle even more so; she's only an enemy because she's allied with our enemies. At the same time, we've got things to offer them even beyond the hostages. Most notably, assurances that we won't come after them unprovoked or invade westeros in the near future. We have better things to do, but they don't know that.
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According to present characterization he's literally not though.

He's Viserys; primarily concerned with the Greater Good and unfortunately ready to eliminate us if necessary. Again, not how I remember him being, but sure.

We meet with him on some neutral ground and we can probably solve this whole issue.
 
I'm not sure about other people, but for me, the problem is that we are currently in a position of strength with significant leverage. I'm unwilling to just release our prisoners and apologize to someone who summoned a kingkiller creature to murder us specifically, without getting something out of it in return just because Danelle wants us to "show we can be reasoned with". Trust goes both ways, Lucan has given us absolutely no reason to trust him and extend the olive branch.

If this causes us to have to break the back of faith over our knee and sacrifice Lucan to the old gods in the middle of the conclave then so be it.
 
[X] She is right. Your actions were wrong and too hasty. Accept her pledge, release your prisoners and leave the Conclave.
-[X] Explain your desire to end hostilities between the Old Gods and the Seven Who Are One.
-[X] (Long night, genocide is a impractical, crusade was a long time ago, also most of you seem like nice-ish people?)
-[X] Yourself and others (not the bad kind) are working on making the Old Gods more willing to accept a compromise
-[X] You demand she do the same in convincing the seven to accept said compromise. Well be in touch.
-[X] Business aside your more than welcome to SD and see the free gov housing, free healing, abundant food, and reform based prison system. All the stuff im actually proud of and she picks the sept? Really? Ugh.

I will vote for this for now, I would prefer that we make it clear that the compromise between the old gods and the Seven, will involve the Seven paying reparations to the old gods, so we don't get some misunderstanding, with her merely thinking the old gods, want the Seven to acknowledge that they aren't the only real gods.
 
chryssalideater said:
Dude, I appreciate it, but a basic reading of Lucan's first interlude makes it clear he's not really a monster.
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I'm not saying he should be a monster. Dear stars above that's not what I'm getting at at all. But the summoning of a Kingkiller is hostile action in a way I'm pretty sure we've not come close to returning. Wiping it away was balancing the scales, because it sure as hell wasn't summoned to bring down the current power on the Iron Throne. If it had been, it would have done it.
 
tarrangar said:
[X] She is right. Your actions were wrong and too hasty. Accept her pledge, release your prisoners and leave the Conclave.
-[X] Explain your desire to end hostilities between the Old Gods and the Seven Who Are One.
-[X] (Long night, genocide is a impractical, crusade was a long time ago, also most of you seem like nice-ish people?)
-[X] Yourself and others (not the bad kind) are working on making the Old Gods more willing to accept a compromise
-[X] You demand she do the same in convincing the seven to accept said compromise. Well be in touch.
-[X] Business aside your more than welcome to SD and see the free gov housing, free healing, abundant food, and reform based prison system. All the stuff im actually proud of and she picks the sept? Really? Ugh.

I will vote for this for now, I would prefer that we make it clear that the compromise between the old gods and the Seven, will involve the Seven paying reparations to the old gods, so we don't get some misunderstanding, with her merely thinking the old gods, want the Seven to acknowledge that they aren't the only real gods.
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...On the one hand, this is idealistic to the point of insanity. On the other hand, these people are insane.
Hmmm.
 
Snowfire said:
How exactly that comes across as the good compromise from the lines we had up to there I will never understand. She hadn't even mentioned her name at that point. And yet it's not even the moral quandary that is the problem. It's how it's being thrown at us, in a way that feels remarkably like bad faith. And yes, that's the phrase I mean. Maybe it's my being tired, but I am really not enjoying this "Oh and but suddenly" that's infected this entire action set. Lucan is suddenly not anything that the rumours showed him to be. At all. Not even slightly. All of them are completely wrong.

Wonderful.

Mind Blank doesn't actually work the way that we were left to assume it has for more than a year OOC. And the first sign we get of this is the vulnerability being used against us.

Can you not see how this looks?
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OK, it's really late for me too, but I'm going to try to formulate ans answer to this because you deserve it.
  1. The Lucan arc exists because I wanted to give you guys an enemy who was not an idiot or a monster, someone complex and thought-provoking like ASOIAF villains are supposed to be like. I tried very hard not to make a diabolus ex machina. To a degree it's an attempt to mirror Vierys and that includes the rumors maligning him.
  2. The mind blank thing was something that I never even realized most people thought differently of
 
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Trickster314 said:
I'm not sure about other people, but for me, the problem is that we are currently in a position of strength with significant leverage. I'm unwilling to just release our prisoners and apologize to someone who summoned a kingkiller creature to murder us specifically, without getting something out of it in return just because Danelle wants us to "show we can be reasoned with". Trust goes both ways, Lucan has given us absolutely no reason to trust him and extend the olive branch.

If this causes us to have to break the back of faith over our knee and sacrifice Lucan to the old gods in the middle of the conclave then so be it.
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It's not like it's that much of a position of strength, Lucan value the mages we have captured personally, but they are in no way particularly important to his organisation, being that the strongest of them is level 9, and we aren't currently in conflict with Danelle, which keeping her friend would cause, so all in all, keeping them hostage would cause a lot of anger, but wouldn't actually get us much leverage.
 
Snowfire said:
How exactly that comes across as the good compromise from the lines we had up to there I will never understand. She hadn't even mentioned her name at that point. And yet it's not even the moral quandary that is the problem. It's how it's being thrown at us, in a way that feels remarkably like bad faith. And yes, that's the phrase I mean. Maybe it's my being tired, but I am really not enjoying this "Oh and but suddenly" that's infected this entire action set. Lucan is suddenly not anything that the rumours showed him to be. At all. Not even slightly. All of them are completely wrong.

Wonderful.

Mind Blank doesn't actually work the way that we were left to assume it has for more than a year OOC. And the first sign we get of this is the vulnerability being used against us.

Can you not see how this looks?
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It's even worse in that his actual actions have painted him as a warmongerer previously, or at the very least someone willing to make a divine assassin pointed at rulers, of which we are one of two he might be concerned with. And his own servants heavily suggested that he would be unwilling to make peaceful compromise.
You know, I just realized something. We're taking Danelle's word that Lucan actually wants to have peaceful talks. Maybe, and I just thought of this, maybe we should switch gears away from negotiating with Danelle, who is in all honesty a bystander here, and suggest we talk directly to Lucan? All three of us, in a room. That's the only way any sort of conversation or negotiating can work here.
 
Raichu1972 said:
According to present characterization he's literally not though.

He's Viserys; primarily concerned with the Greater Good and unfortunately ready to eliminate us if necessary. Again, not how I remember him being, but sure.

We meet with him on some neutral ground and we can probably solve this whole issue.
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Dude summoned a kingkiller to assassinate us. Yes, that doesn't fit with the charcterization we are seeing now (a lot of things we thought we knew don't), but it happened and there's no denying it, and we haven't gotten any explaination for it beyond the obvious. That makes him our enemy even if I wish things were otherwise. I feel like we're being gaslighted about this.
 
Ericwinter said:
It's even worse in that his actual actions have painted him as a warmongerer previously, or at the very least someone willing to make a divine assassin pointed at rulers, of which we are one of two he might be concerned with. And his own servants heavily suggested that he would be unwilling to make peaceful compromise.
You know, I just realized something. We're taking Danelle's word that Lucan actually wants to have peaceful talks. Maybe, and I just thought of this, maybe we should switch gears away from negotiating with Danelle, who is in all honesty a bystander here, and suggest we talk directly to Lucan? All three of us, in a room. That's the only way any sort of conversation or negotiating can work here.
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Honestly you have a point. If this was just a -OH SON OF A BITCH. Right yeah, let's do that. Let's stop arguing the pure virtuous innocent maiden sent in here to negotiate because Lucan thought that that would make for an easier time negotiating. Which it almost did. Holy shit I'm a gullible idiot.

If we were just negotiating with Danelle and it was just a matter of what Danelle thought, than this almost wouldn't be an issue. Hell, she seems like the kind of person who would be willing to apologize for all that murder stuff the seven did originally. Lucan is the issue here, so let's stop framing the argument around convincing Danelle and start focusing on him.
 
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brmj said:
Dude summoned a kingkiller to assassinate us. Yes, that doesn't fit with the charcterization we are seeing now (a lot of things we thought we knew don't), but it happened and there's no denying it, and we haven't gotten any explaination for it beyond the obvious. That makes him our enemy even if I wish things were otherwise. I feel like we're being gaslighted about this.
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We probably are, but at this point I'm thinking of the king killer as a fever dream that gave us XP somehow :p

Lucan as currently characterized is a perfectly nice, reasonable fellow apparently, so we might as well roll with it.

Edit: I'm also not buying the "Lucan sent Danielle to gaslight us", because the QMs are confirming what she is saying and I'm hoping they wouldn't gaslight us.
 
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Okay. Please read this. I put a lot of thought into it over the car ride. @DragonParadox @Azel For QMing,
chryssalideater said:
[] Plan No buts about it
-[X] "An Angel of the Seven personally told me that Lucan could not be trusted to parley. This wasn't the one made from the twisted soul of my ancestor Baelor the Blessed and sent to murder me - this was yet another Angel, personally in Lucan's service."
-[] "In both Westeros and Essos, I have seen mages bound to service through curses. Forcing mages to fight anyone who could free them or kill themselves if they could not is the obvious binding, and one I would not risk again. Noble lords and wise masters have both sunk this low, so who was I to trust Lucan's good name, when he has already made himself my enemy, and his allies themselves said there could be no safe truce?
-[] "I captured Lucan's companions without harming them, to see just how willingly they served him and to ensure that negotiating with Lucan would be possible in the first place. I truly regret that your own friends were involved. Rest assured, they will be released to you without expectations of service or recompense. You need not serve as my mouthpiece here in the Conclave to save your friends."
-[] "My interest is not in benefiting the Faith, Lady Danelle, but insuring the survival of those who live upon this planet, protecting them from all that would see them as little more than play things and cattle to be fed upon. The Seven have raised a champion against me, devoting time, effort, and resources towards eliminating me, while Devils and worse make Westeros their playground."

Modified version of @Goldfish's plan. Cleans up a bit of internal logic, makes us less of a hypocrite, and makes it clear that a) we're holding on to Lucan's people and b) why we're holding on to Lucan's people. That said, we still release Danelle's friends so she stops losing it.
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D King Hecht said:
This is just an idea, pick it apart as you will.

[X] Plan The bigger picture
-[X] "While I can understand that this is a strenuous time for you. I am afraid that you are not able to see the bigger picture as I am. While Westeros holds a place in my heart. I have to look to the safety of my citizens who have come under the aegis of my wings. What you have to realize are the threats that are lurking just outside of your sight. The Deep Ones you know doubt already know of. But do you know of Tiamat to the east? The machinations of the lord of the third plane of Hell? Do you truly know of the threat to the North beyond the Wall? Have you even heard of the Sultan of Brass? The true plans of you fey "allies" for the Reach? All of this is constantly on my mind and I have protected the plane from threats that you could barely fathom."
-[X] "Will people die along the way? Yes. Is this fair? No. But, I have to look to the protection of the entire plane, the countless millions who live upon and seek shelter upon her."
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DkArthas said:
[x] Plan Nope
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These, among other ideas and off-the-cuff comments brought up, are missing a critical component.

@Azel and @DragonParadox are using this entire arc to bludgeon the thread with the consequences of an impulsive decision to retroactively reevaluate the implications of our decisions, deciding to append a moral quandary to it and shattering all hope or preconceptions that those decisions were made eyes wide open.

This entire social encounter is engineered logically in a increasingly punishing fashion in order to give people key takeaways, one among them, the key component to this conversation with Danelle, is a inherently intrinsic moral component to the bare minimum of what she requires to interact with us. She has faced her fair share of monsters too. She put herself at great risk in hopes that what could either be the biggest monster of them all for how fair his words and guises are, or one of the greatest heroes, would make themselves known to her, hopefully in a way she could tolerate, or else in hopes that her death could be put to use by Lucan in some manner to harm us. She's willing to Martyr herself if she has to, to damn her friends to hell, because she believes she can't afford to short change the People of Westeros and their spiritual well-being otherwise.

You have two options here. You can't tread the middle ground while still demanding all of your goals be met.

You can either sacrifice upon the altar of peace part of your desires and actually compromise with Lucan and Danelle, make peace, talk it out and let clear communication carry the day.

Or, if you must have all your demands met, if you cannot countenance not accomplishing your agenda, from here on out @Azel has decided to make sure you realize that the kind of ethical and moral calculus involved almost universally is against you if you also want to paint yourself as some kind of savior figure. It will ring hallow even if you convince 99% of everyone around you that it is true, because you'll know it's false and you will hate it because of what that kind of weight does to a person's mind. It is exactly the kind of self-delusion that Viserys despises.

This is the moment to either decide that Danelle's petty desires and wants pale in the face of our own agenda, alliances and motivations and dispose of her and Lucan as we please, with zero quarter given and none asked.

Or to release all hostages, immediately, first line of the next vote, bare minimum, no quibbling, pontificating, admitting you made a mistake, and wearily and humbly making for the peace table.

Neither side will be happy with what is decided. That's why it's called a compromise. If you want to be a hero, you don't get to eat villain cake too.

*mic drop*
 
I find the choices we can take from the last update to be a bit limited, to be honest. Danelle seems to be totally unwilling to compromise even though she is in a much weaker position. It appears that the only choices we have are:
A) Give her everything she wants and leave, basically invalidating everything we did in the last 10 or so updates or
B) Murder her.
 
Raichu1972 said:
We probably are, but at this point I'm thinking of the king killer as a fever dream that gave us XP somehow :p

Lucan as currently characterized is a perfectly nice, reasonable fellow apparently, so we might as well roll with it.
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Yeah well we seem like a perfectly nice reasonable fellow until someone brings up the blood sacrifice, so charisma doesn't count for everything.
 
Thoughts and suggestions?

[X] Plan "My Turn"
-[X] "Before this discussion progresses any further, Lady Danelle, let me make one thing clear. Your friends are free to go, and Lucan's along with them, either now if you wish it or released directly into your custody when we are finished here. Your friends were not my intended targets and I will not hold them hostage against your good behavior, or to leverage you into my service. Lucan's have served their purpose in revealing to me his concern for them and ultimately leading to this meeting. Now, I let you speak your mind and now I would appreciate it if you let me speak mine."
-[X] "I have all too often seen mages bound to service, not through oaths willingly given or loyalty earned, but through enchantment, curses and worse. Surely you are familiar with Tywin Lannisters' Golden Shields? I've yet to encounter one who was not magically bound to serve him, regardless of their willingness. The Citadel? They sent a spy to infiltrate my Scholarium, one who had been branded through magic such that he could not disobey the Maesters holding his leash on pain of death. So yes, when I heard rumors that Lucan practiced similar atrocities, I believed them. After all, the man had already made himself my enemy."
--[X] "Are you familiar with the Angels Lucan has Called into his service? If so, you might remember Baelor, once called the Blessed due to his overwhelming piety and faith in the Seven, but also my ancestor and a former King of Westeros. Baelor was not simply Called to serve. He was empowered far beyond the normal bounds of his fellows and given a Divine mission to kill me. Obviously, Baelor did not succeed in his mission, save in poisoning my opinion of your fellow Chosen. How much time did Lucan spend to summon Baelor the Blessed, time he could have better spent ridding Westeros of monsters? Why send my ancestor to slay me when there are more Devil plots in these lands than can be counted on two hand?"
--[X] "Another Angel in Lucan's service, Roland, with whom I spoke cordially shortly before the Conclave first convened, did not believe Lucan would even deign to meet with me should I seek to parlay with him.
--[X] "So when I learned that mages in Lucan's service were here in Oldtown, I decided to take a chance, to risk the carefully cultivated persona I have used to great effect here in Westeros in order to learn what I believed was critical information. Were they, too, bound to serve yet another Westerosi master? Were they compelled to serve through fear or magic? If not, yet another false rumor would have been laid to rest, as have been many in these past days. If they were, I would have gladly freed them, as you must know there are few things I abhor more than slavery?"
---[X] "And if his mages were not coerced, but were in fact his companions, then that too could have been of use to me. Cold as it may seem, hostages might have allowed me to compel a meeting with the man."
-[X] "Now it is obvious that the Conclave is lost to me, though I assure you my intentions were honorable, at least as I see them. If you are willing to speak further on this matter, there is much you need to know which I hoped to bring to the attention of the Faith using my disguise as Dywen."
--[X] "Although the timing is quite awful and you have little reason to trust my intentions, I would like to invite you to Sorcerer's Deep, along with any you wish to accompany you. Before you call a land Hell-on-Earth, you should take the opportunity to walk its streets, meets those who call it home, and learn what has truly passed to make it as it now is. Let us make something of this sad state of affairs. If we cannot be friends, I would at least hope for an understanding between us, one which benefits all and harms none, for I suspect many of our goals are one and the same, despite what otherwise sets us apart."
 
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chryssalideater said:
...On the one hand, this is idealistic to the point of insanity. On the other hand, these people are insane.
Hmmm.
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Danelle at least is an idealist, I doubt we will get Lucan with this, but gaining Danelle as an ally, in settling the war between the old gods and the Seven, would in my opinion by itself be worth giving up our other objectives here.

I'm not sure if we will get anywhere with Lucan, but frankly I don't care about Lucan, either he get on our side, and try to convince his gods that they need to pay reparations to the old gods, or he don't and we will deal with him later, it's Danelle that's important here, she's the Chosen of the aspect of the Seven, most likely to agree to make a sacrifice as penance for her Pantheon's wrongs, and is the kind of idealist, who might actually be convinced, that even the gods must answer for their actions.
 
Crake said:
Okay. Please read this. I put a lot of thought into it over the car ride. @DragonParadox @Azel For QMing,







These, among other ideas and off-the-cuff comments brought up, are missing a critical component.

@Azel and @DragonParadox are using this entire arc to bludgeon the thread with the consequences of an impulsive decision to retroactively reevaluate the implications of our decisions, deciding to append a moral quandary to it and shattering all hope or preconceptions that those decisions were made eyes wide open.

This entire social encounter is engineered logically in a increasingly punishing fashion in order to give people key takeaways, one among them, the key component to this conversation with Danelle, is a inherently intrinsic moral component to the bare minimum of what she requires to interact with us. She has faced her fair share of monsters too. She put herself at great risk in hopes that what could either be the biggest monster of them all for how fair his words and guises are, or one of the greatest heroes, would make themselves known to her, hopefully in a way she could tolerate, or else in hopes that her death could be put to use by Lucan in some manner to harm us. She's willing to Martyr herself if she has to, to damn her friends to hell, because she believes she can't afford to short change the People of Westeros and their spiritual well-being otherwise.

You have two options here. You can't tread the middle ground while still demanding all of your goals be met.

You can either sacrifice upon the altar of peace part of your desires and actually compromise with Lucan and Danelle, make peace, talk it out and let clear communication carry the day.

Or, if you must have all your demands met, if you cannot countenance not accomplishing your agenda, from here on out @Azel has decided to make sure you realize that the kind of ethical and moral calculus involved almost universally is against you if you also want to paint yourself as some kind of savior figure. It will ring hallow even if you convince 99% of everyone around you that it is true, because you'll know it's false and you will hate it because of what that kind of weight does to a person's mind. It is exactly the kind of self-delusion that Viserys despises.

This is the moment to either decide that Danelle's petty desires and wants pale in the face of our own agenda, alliances and motivations and dispose of her and Lucan as we please, with zero quarter given and none asked.

Or to release all hostages, immediately, first line of the next vote, bare minimum, no quibbling, pontificating, admitting you made a mistake, and wearily and humbly making for the peace table.

Neither side will be happy with what is decided. That's why it's called a compromise. If you want to be a hero, you don't get to eat villain cake too.

*mic drop*
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Trickster314 said:
I find the choices we can take from the last update to be a bit limited, to be honest. Danelle seems to be totally unwilling to compromise even though she is in a much weaker position. It appears that the only choices we have are:
A) Give her everything she wants and leave, basically invalidating everything we did in the last 10 or so updates or
B) Murder her.
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How strange, a doublepost.
 
Snowfire said:
I'm not saying he should be a monster. Dear stars above that's not what I'm getting at at all. But the summoning of a Kingkiller is hostile action in a way I'm pretty sure we've not come close to returning. Wiping it away was balancing the scales, because it sure as hell wasn't summoned to bring down the current power on the Iron Throne. If it had been, it would have done it.
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You guys really should ask about Baelor. That is a legitimate question to ask IC and I promise it is not a character or world-building hole. Saying more would be a spoiler.
 
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