Yeah… top Notch argumentation right there...
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
-
- Tags
- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There were literally 2 people that thing could be designed for, and Robert Baratheon isn't dead yet.
- Location
- Brazil
Right, summoning him was clearly an attempt to kill Bobby fucking B.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Well no, that would be suicide, but coming for us the moment we revealed our presence, in a way that made it obvious we wanted to talk, is pretty indicative of purpose.
- Location
- Brazil
Yes, after we had a literal angel tell us how hard his murderboner is for us, and after he summoned the fucking Kingkiller, that was very likely to end up as a highly productive meeting, for sure.
When DP said it's be extremely dangerous even trying to talk to him, I more or less gave up on him living.
Last edited:
Evaunit02mark1
S-s-smell the Prey, S-s-start the Hunt.
Like I stated before he was summoned with a Kingkiller Template, so unless he was floating his feathery ass to shank the fat whoremonger on his throne, which he wasn't, there's not much else he could be there to do.
It's like me wearing a chef's hat, in a chef's uniform, with a set of knives and a spatula, walking into a kitchen and being mad someone's assuming I'm there to cook when I'm actually there to solve the theory of cold fusion using a poptart and a blender, which are not, in fact, in the goddamn kitchen.
It's unlikely to work in Viserys' estimation. Danelle is not a player of political games, if she helps you it's because she genuinely believes you are trying to do the right thing and a big part of that is making amends for past mistakes. On the flip side 'she does not play games' also means she will likely not try to set specific limits on her own aid (beyond those of morality and duty) to get a better bargain.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
You know, now that I think about it, our perceptions really did have more to go on than just some rumours from a thousand miles away. Huh.
- Location
- France
My god, you're such a smug bitch sometimes. Seriously.
We get it, we fucked up by now investigating Lucan better. You've said it already, and have been saying it for several days.
Now please go stick a bratwurst down your throat and revel in the knowledge of your kinship with the Bavarians or something.
Honestly, I agree with TNE here. All previous signs pointed to this guy hating us utterly and considering us as the fucking Antichrist. Contact with him seemed crazily risky, and we didn't know his actual power level.
This is biting us in the ass now, but at the time it was a good decision and I would do it again. I'd just also send some semi-expendable spies after him or something.
Last edited:
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
This is going to come across really harsh, and I'm sorry. But I'm not seeing another way to do it. I have reread this update now whilst not in the middle of DMing my first major combat in actual years, and have found it somewhat less grating but still riddled full of issues. Bluntly, the character of Viserys here slingshots back and forth between automaton and actual capable political operator. There is no balance to these actions, and if I'm quite honest, the response from Danelle grates not because it's unpredictable - it wasn't - but because we were given no means to actually respond to it. This is a perfect match to what occurred in the update before this one, where narrative agency was summarily ripped from our hands and we just followed along blindly. Except this time we followed along blindly a plan that was...
Yeah, I'm sorry. Taken in the worst possible context and not given any opportunity to react. The first I can...almost forgive. The second, especially after the update the came before it, I quite simply cannot. Viserys is not an automaton, and you treated him like one. You chained him to the plan, and refused to let him walk back from it, thereby doubling down on a course of action that (sorry) he had to know was a poor one. I very much doubt that Danelle has the ability to actually prevent us from reading her, and after the first response she gave, I would have gone straight to abort. With that in mind, the update should logically have simply terminated here:
You've given us that option to readjust from a poor position before. We should have had it here. She flung a hard truth at us, and the question of how to continue basically writes itself. And this is now twice in a single day that agency has been simply removed. I lack the words to politely express my thoughts on this, and a further rant on the subject wouldn't help.
I was going to go on and analyse where we might go from this point, but that's going to have to wait until tomorrow. If I could actually get that time, that would be lovely.
Last edited:
tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
If she believes in making amends for past mistakes, I really want to talk with her about the old gods now, because that's essentially what the cost of peace would be, the Seven making amends for their past crimes against the old gods, or do she somehow believe her gods are exempt, from needing to make amends.
I'm ready to release the hostages for a chance at this, because it would be delicious, if we could convince a Chosen of the Seven, that her gods owe the old gods reparations.
Last edited:
- Location
- Brazil
When you have a guy spends six months to summon something that does things like:
Accursed Wounding (Su)
Damage dealt by a kingkiller creature cannot be healed normally, (including regeneration and fast healing) unless a creature makes a successful Will Save (DC 10 + 1/2 the kingkiller's HD + its Con Modifier). Magical healing will not heal damage dealt by a kingkiller creature unless a specific type of creature under a specific circumstance casts a remove curse or similar spell. These specific requirements are subject to GM adjudication, examples include a creature, a creature of the same type as the kingkiller creature, a creature who has is not part of the kingdom; on the site of the kingdom's founding, on the site of the kingkiller creature's creation, on holy ground dedicated to the ethos of forgiveness. A Heal check (DC15 + the dreaded creature's CR) can be made to determine this requirement. This is a necromantic-curse effect.
When a literal angel in his service isn't sure of his willingness to talk, and you tell me "it'd have cost him dearly to move against you there, you just had to come into AMF range of the champion of the gods who painted you as the antichirst, in their holiest place ", I have to call bullshit.
Because he'd have gladly paid the price, for all we know of him.
I'm expecting a fight in the Starry Sept with Lucan to mean an Avatar of the Father popping up.
Accursed Wounding (Su)
Damage dealt by a kingkiller creature cannot be healed normally, (including regeneration and fast healing) unless a creature makes a successful Will Save (DC 10 + 1/2 the kingkiller's HD + its Con Modifier). Magical healing will not heal damage dealt by a kingkiller creature unless a specific type of creature under a specific circumstance casts a remove curse or similar spell. These specific requirements are subject to GM adjudication, examples include a creature, a creature of the same type as the kingkiller creature, a creature who has is not part of the kingdom; on the site of the kingdom's founding, on the site of the kingkiller creature's creation, on holy ground dedicated to the ethos of forgiveness. A Heal check (DC15 + the dreaded creature's CR) can be made to determine this requirement. This is a necromantic-curse effect.
When a literal angel in his service isn't sure of his willingness to talk, and you tell me "it'd have cost him dearly to move against you there, you just had to come into AMF range of the champion of the gods who painted you as the antichirst, in their holiest place ", I have to call bullshit.
Because he'd have gladly paid the price, for all we know of him.
I'm expecting a fight in the Starry Sept with Lucan to mean an Avatar of the Father popping up.
Last edited:
- Location
- Castle
Didn't we have a whole shit show about killing people just because they disagree with us is a mistake?
He'll, Lucan was looking like a total loon before and now he is both a saint and Viserys on religion juice, hardly any reason to kill him.
He'll, Lucan was looking like a total loon before and now he is both a saint and Viserys on religion juice, hardly any reason to kill him.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Nah, we just want to point out to Danelle that he tried to murder us first, and we responded with peaceful subterfuge to diplomance in a setting that would prevent outright violence.*sigh*
Then just roll initiative already?
Seriously. This is getting stupid.
Half the thread just wants to murder Lucan, but doesn't have the stomach to vote for it.
Evaunit02mark1
S-s-smell the Prey, S-s-start the Hunt.
*sigh*
Then just roll initiative already?
Seriously. This is getting stupid.
Half the thread just wants to murder Lucan, but doesn't have the stomach to vote for it.
I want to murder him yes, but my murderboner is second to our duty of protecting the species.
If he's more use alive and running around dealing with Mammon, Tiamat, and whatever other fuckheads pop their heads up on Westeros while we're too busy to conquer it, fine. Let him roam, let him play, I could care less.
We have literal gods gunning for our head, our treaty with the squids is running out, and lest you forget, we headbutted a god not a few months ago, which alerted yet another enemy to our existence.
We don't have time to deal with his ass at the moment, we don't have time to deal with Westeros at the moment, so getting him in a position where we don't have to do either is preferable to wasting time trying to kill the fucker.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah, fuck us for not wanting to deal with the political fallout of murdering two christ-like figures.*sigh*
Then just roll initiative already?
Seriously. This is getting stupid.
Half the thread just wants to murder Lucan, but doesn't have the stomach to vote for it.
- Location
- France
Murdering Lucan now would be a terrible idea, and I think that most of the thread knows that.*sigh*
Then just roll initiative already?
Seriously. This is getting stupid.
Half the thread just wants to murder Lucan, but doesn't have the stomach to vote for it.
It's just that they don't want to backtrack and admit that they were wrong, and they don't want to pretend that we can be long-term friends with the Chosen while wanting to crush their religious organization and harm their gods.
These are contradictory imperatives, and the thread is struggling with them.
It may not be voting for the course of action that you want, but that's the price of being QM isn't it?
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
And yeah, I'm going to have to bring this up too. Lucan is getting either entirely too much in the way of benefit of the doubt for this, or it's just apparently been completely forgotten in terms of characterisation. Because you don't build something like that as a deterrent. You build it to kill.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
OK, different thought, full idealist. @DragonParadox if Danelle is all big on Faith and Honor, would she be willing to ensure that the parley is enforced, even if it means going against Lucan should he betray it?
That was indeed harsh but I'm not going to argue with it. I think it is in part me being unused to writing difficult moral quandaries and being concerned that if I cut off too soon I would be leading you into a trap for instance you guys could have chosen to just release Aryssa. Given the knowledge you had up to that paragraph you quoted it would have seemed like a good compromise and it would have utterly torpedoed talks.
tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
I believe from what DP said of Danelle's character, there's a chance we can convince her that the Seven owe the old gods reparations, convincing her to abandon her gods is very unlikely, but getting her to be the person to bring the old gods demands to the Seven seem possible.
- Location
- France
People, what do we want?
We don't want a united Faith marching to war
We don't want the Faith to have excessive influence over politics or magical matters
We do want the Faith to struggle with its internal reformation and Bloodraven-related struggles
We do want the Faith to struggle against the Fey, and against Tywin's enslavement of mages and nobles.
There's not much point on trying to splinter them along the "kill all witches" VS "use some witches" lines, because Lucan is a social-spec and is inconvenient.
Can we all agree on that?
We don't want a united Faith marching to war
We don't want the Faith to have excessive influence over politics or magical matters
We do want the Faith to struggle with its internal reformation and Bloodraven-related struggles
We do want the Faith to struggle against the Fey, and against Tywin's enslavement of mages and nobles.
There's not much point on trying to splinter them along the "kill all witches" VS "use some witches" lines, because Lucan is a social-spec and is inconvenient.
Can we all agree on that?
- Location
- Canada (eh)
[X] Plan Nothing personal
[X] Offer to immediately release Danelle's companions as a gesture of goodwill (but not Lucan's), if she attempts to ask us to give Lucan the same treatment ask if she would like his actions to affect our treatment of her as well.
[X] Lucan's companions will be returned after the end of the conclave on the condition that both chosen and their most influential supporters immediately withdraw from the conclave and they refrain from interfering either through mundane, arcane or divine means (must swear either in front of a heart tree, Yss, or in front of their gods).
[X] Reassure Danelle that Lucan's companions will not be physically or mentally harmed while in our custody
[X] Arrange for a future meeting between us and the chosen be arranged under parlay terms on neutral ground (say Braavos within the Iron Bank, or on the Plane of Earth) to discuss the aims of the faith and its place in a new world.
So my first ever plan.... not its probably terrible and lacks a lot of important elements but I think it gets us everything we want.
We show Danelle that we can be reasoned with by releasing her people and even she has to admit we have legitimate grievances against Lucan. I also don't think that the conclave will vote a faith militant without the leadership and influence of two chosen. Finally, we get to have a talk with both about what the faith actually wants and will no longer have to rely on assumptions. Yes we are strongarming them, but Lucan hasn't exactly made himself out to be very trustworthy. Overall, I think that this deal is more than fair and quite reasonable.
So please feel free to criticize and comment. It feels oddly satisfying to finally propose a plan after all these years lurking.
[X] Offer to immediately release Danelle's companions as a gesture of goodwill (but not Lucan's), if she attempts to ask us to give Lucan the same treatment ask if she would like his actions to affect our treatment of her as well.
[X] Lucan's companions will be returned after the end of the conclave on the condition that both chosen and their most influential supporters immediately withdraw from the conclave and they refrain from interfering either through mundane, arcane or divine means (must swear either in front of a heart tree, Yss, or in front of their gods).
[X] Reassure Danelle that Lucan's companions will not be physically or mentally harmed while in our custody
[X] Arrange for a future meeting between us and the chosen be arranged under parlay terms on neutral ground (say Braavos within the Iron Bank, or on the Plane of Earth) to discuss the aims of the faith and its place in a new world.
So my first ever plan.... not its probably terrible and lacks a lot of important elements but I think it gets us everything we want.
We show Danelle that we can be reasoned with by releasing her people and even she has to admit we have legitimate grievances against Lucan. I also don't think that the conclave will vote a faith militant without the leadership and influence of two chosen. Finally, we get to have a talk with both about what the faith actually wants and will no longer have to rely on assumptions. Yes we are strongarming them, but Lucan hasn't exactly made himself out to be very trustworthy. Overall, I think that this deal is more than fair and quite reasonable.
So please feel free to criticize and comment. It feels oddly satisfying to finally propose a plan after all these years lurking.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Jesus Christ I read that as "We don't want a united France marching to war." That said, You are correct.