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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Enough discussions, nab them an deal with them later.

[X] Plan full Evil Overlord
-[X] Turtle her, then look for Lucan to turtle too. Deal with them and their friends later.
-[X] Impersonate both at the Conclave to do what we intend to do.
 
Trickster314 said:
[X] Lucan's companions will be returned after the end of the conclave on the condition that both chosen and their most influential supporters immediately withdraw from the conclave and they refrain from interfering either through mundane, arcane or divine means (must swear either in front of a heart tree, Yss, or in front of their gods).
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What if Lucan refuses?
 
Trickster314 said:
[X] Plan Nothing personal
[X] Offer to immediately release Danelle's companions as a gesture of goodwill (but not Lucan's), if she attempts to ask us to give Lucan the same treatment ask if she would like his actions to affect our treatment of her as well.
[X] Lucan's companions will be returned after the end of the conclave on the condition that both chosen and their most influential supporters immediately withdraw from the conclave and they refrain from interfering either through mundane, arcane or divine means (must swear either in front of a heart tree, Yss, or in front of their gods).
[X] Reassure Danelle that Lucan's companions will not be physically or mentally harmed while in our custody
[X] Arrange for a future meeting between us and the chosen be arranged under parlay terms on neutral ground (say Braavos within the Iron Bank, or on the Plane of Earth) to discuss the aims of the faith and its place in a new world.
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It's not the worst, but suffers from the same issues everyone else's has, namely that Danelle will not be satisfied with a partial release.
 
Working on my plan now. Please hold your murderboners away from the screen and try not to be deliberately insulting to one another.

We're here to have fun, ya'll.
 
[X] Plan full Evil Overlord
-[X] Turtle her, then look for Lucan to turtle too. Deal with them and their friends later.
-[X] Impersonate both at the Conclave to do what we intend to do.

Finally. A proper plan.
 
DragonParadox said:
Yes, Viserys is quite certain the idea of letting anyone break parley in front of her would be utterly repugnant to Danelle.
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Right, the faith are idealists. I forgot that could work for us.

@Goldfish modify the current plan for forcing negotiations to be on Danelle's own word. If we play this right, we might still be able to get a chosen out of this.

EDIT: I mean uh...if you like.
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
People, what do we want?

We don't want a united Faith marching to war
We don't want the Faith to have excessive influence over politics or magical matters
We do want the Faith to struggle with its internal reformation and Bloodraven-related struggles
We do want the Faith to struggle against the Fey, and against Tywin's enslavement of mages and nobles.

There's not much point on trying to splinter them along the "kill all witches" VS "use some witches" lines, because Lucan is a social-spec and is inconvenient.

Can we all agree on that?
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I, personally, want the faith to be another weapon in our arsenal, pointed at all the monsters we have just waiting to jump our bones, but in a manner similar to the Inquisition. Scattered teams who can defend isolated areas without some great big administrationgetting in the way of things or consolidating too much power in one place.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Murdering Lucan now would be a terrible idea, and I think that most of the thread knows that.
It's just that they don't want to backtrack and admit that they were wrong, and they don't want to pretend that we can be long-term friends with the Chosen while wanting to crush their religious organization and harm their gods.
These are contradictory imperatives, and the thread is struggling with them.
It may not be voting for the course of action that you want, but that's the price of being QM isn't it?
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I'm not invested in either outcome. It's just painful to watch how the thread is desperately trying to have it's cake and eat it.
You can't both oppose them and be friends with them. You can't expect them to forgive and forget while you hold hostages and make demands while giving nothing in return.

The whole parley with Lucan is especially weird to watch, as the people arguing for it are both utterly convinced that it needs hostages to have Lucan abide by the terms of a parley, let alone the terms settled on there, but yet think this parley will achieve anything.
 
[X] Plan full Evil Overlord
-[X] Turtle her, then look for Lucan to turtle too. Deal with them and their friends later.
-[X] Impersonate both at the Conclave to do what we intend to do.

Let's go.
 
Azel said:
I'm not invested in either outcome. It's just painful to watch how the thread is desperately trying to have it's cake and eat it.
You can't both oppose them and be friends with them. You can't expect them to forgive and forget while you hold hostages and make demands while giving nothing in return.

The whole parley with Lucan is especially weird to watch, as the people arguing for it are both utterly convinced that it needs hostages to have Lucan abide by the terms of a parley, let alone the terms settled on there, but yet think this parley will achieve anything.
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...I could be wrong, but that seems like that would be because individual people are hoping to achieve different things?
 
Ericwinter said:
I, personally, want the faith to be another weapon in our arsenal, pointed at all the monsters we have just waiting to jump our bones, but in a manner similar to the Inquisition. Scattered teams who can defend isolated areas without some great big administrationgetting in the way of things or consolidating too much power in one place.
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The Inquisiton does have an administration though ;D
 
chryssalideater said:
It's not the worst, but suffers from the same issues everyone else's has, namely that Danelle will not be satisfied with a partial release.
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At the end of the day negotiation is two parties trying to achieve a compromise so both parties get what they consider acceptable. We're already willing to compromise by releasing some of them and offering a fair deal if she isn't happy, well tough.

If Lucan refuses his mages are kept in bottles until winter arrives. And we continue to attempt to muck up proceedings in the conclave. If they reveal its us, we murder our prisoners. Its not like were going to just release them
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
The Inquisiton does have an administration though ;D
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Yeah, but they're not a holy institution, and are explicitly designed to keep power partitioned if I recall correctly. The administration for them is the same as the Seven-Pointed Star for the faith, something to keep them and their operating procedures standardized.
 
...Ok. So this is really dumb. But what if we were like, "pick up your friends over here." And left their friends hundreds of miles away. Do you reckon they would actually abandon the conclave to pick them up? Probably not but the thought is hilarious.
 
Trickster314 said:
At the end of the day negotiation is two parties trying to achieve a compromise so both parties get what they consider acceptable. We're already willing to compromise by releasing some of them and offering a fair deal if she isn't happy, well tough.

If Lucan refuses his mages are kept in bottles until winter arrives. And we continue to attempt to muck up proceedings in the conclave. If they reveal its us, we murder our prisoners. Its not like were going to just release them
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I'm saying DP has already said Danelle won't go for it. So make the plan if you like, just no it actually won't work.
 
[] Say something else:
-[] My first interaction with the faith was the soul of my ancestor specifically being empowered as an angel to kill me. Forgive me for non-lethally capturing people working for those with proven hostile intent. Both sides have attempted to strike at each other. Right now, I would like nothing better than to release the people under my custody and have a frank open discussion with both the Seven and thier Chosen. Tell me, how we can go from here to there?

My thoughts, probably needs a lot of edits. Honestly, I just want to speak to the seven. I'm heading to sleep, hopefully someone can use it.
 
[X] She is right. Your actions were wrong and too hasty. Accept her pledge, release your prisoners and leave the Conclave.
-[X] Explain your desire to end hostilities between the Old Gods and the Seven Who Are One.
-[X] (Long night, genocide is a impractical, crusade was a long time ago, also most of you seem like nice-ish people?)
-[X] Yourself and others (not the bad kind) are working on making the Old Gods more willing to accept a compromise
-[X] You demand she do the same in convincing the seven to accept said compromise. Well be in touch.
-[X] Business aside your more than welcome to SD and see the free gov housing, free healing, abundant food, and reform based prison system. All the stuff im actually proud of and she picks the sept? Really? Ugh.
-[JK] Also tell Lucan hes a knob head.

unleash the hounds!
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
People, what do we want?

We don't want a united Faith marching to war
We don't want the Faith to have excessive influence over politics or magical matters
We do want the Faith to struggle with its internal reformation and Bloodraven-related struggles
We do want the Faith to struggle against the Fey, and against Tywin's enslavement of mages and nobles.

There's not much point on trying to splinter them along the "kill all witches" VS "use some witches" lines, because Lucan is a social-spec and is inconvenient.

Can we all agree on that?
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What we really want here is twofold.

Get the Old Gods off our back about the Seven.

Get the Seven off our back.

Lucan is Viserys 2.0 (at least to my understanding) and thus is reasonable and likely perfectly willing to work with us against greater threats like the Deep Ones or Winter.

This seems to be entirely counter to his older characterization, but that misstep is over now and I guess we can just move on.

We should release all the prisoners, throw out some milquetoast suggestions for Danielle (all mages chained to the Faith is bad, lying about the nature of the world (re: Gods) is bad) and set up open communications with her and Lucan to meet up and discuss how to get out of this currently antagonistic relationship.

Staying at the Conclave any longer is clearly a losing proposition.
 
DragonParadox said:
That was indeed harsh but I'm not going to argue with it. I think it is in part me being unused to writing difficult moral quandaries and being concerned that if I cut off too soon I would be leading you into a trap for instance you guys could have chosen to just release Aryssa. Given the knowledge you had up to that paragraph you quoted it would have seemed like a good compromise and it would have utterly torpedoed talks.
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How exactly that comes across as the good compromise from the lines we had up to there I will never understand. She hadn't even mentioned her name at that point. And yet it's not even the moral quandary that is the problem. It's how it's being thrown at us, in a way that feels remarkably like bad faith. And yes, that's the phrase I mean. Maybe it's my being tired, but I am really not enjoying this "Oh and but suddenly" that's infected this entire action set. Lucan is suddenly not anything that the rumours showed him to be. At all. Not even slightly. All of them are completely wrong.

Wonderful.

Mind Blank doesn't actually work the way that we were left to assume it has for more than a year OOC. And the first sign we get of this is the vulnerability being used against us.

And then stack upon that how we are given no chance to actually fight the charges Danelle has just thrown at us. Not even slightly. It's 'accept this proposal or gg' from all appearances.

Can you not see how this looks?
 
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I wonder if some kind of long term truce might be an atainable option. Lucan is our enemy, and I don't see any changing that, but he's an enemy who wants many of the same things and could be useful if kept focused elsewhere, so long as the faith militant doesn't get recreated. Danelle even more so; she's only an enemy because she's allied with our enemies. At the same time, we've got things to offer them even beyond the hostages. Most notably, assurances that we won't come after them unprovoked or invade westeros in the near future. We have better things to do, but they don't know that.
 
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