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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Acolyte said:
If he so difficult. Can we just shank him. Ninja teleporting richard.
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Since DP's reveal of his class, we know that Lucan is a bitch to pin down and fight, we'll need overwhelming numbers and specific team composition, and he'll have Angels on his side to mitigate any usual bullshit of our WBL-less characters.

Snowfire said:
Ah, I see. You're ascribing to narrative based Fae logic :V
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...rephrase please, I don't get what you are saying at all, apart from vaguely hurting tone :/
 
Big reminder here: The transgressions that the Seven did, were more likely decided by their followers, not by the gods themselves.

So it is totally possible for the Father to say "Yeah, my followers dun goofed, what do I have to do so that you don't murder their great-great-great-great children?"
 
065tdsa said:
You sure about that? If say, the Father represents fairness and virtue, doesn't that mean that his decisions are inherently so and anyone who says otherwise is lying?
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That's Mel's conundrum, by another skin.

We solve it the same way: present her with what are clearly truths, and clearly in conflict with what she seems to believe is also true.

However she reconciles it, and given these are people whose faith is bone-deep it shouldn't break so reconciling it is, it grows to encompass the world at large.

It's not too hard to convince people who believe someone always knows better that their own human perceptions are flawed, we just take their own logic to its end.
 
Tomcost said:
Big reminder here: The transgressions that the Seven did, were more likely decided by their followers, not by the gods themselves.

So it is totally possible for the Father to say "Yeah, my followers dun goofed, what do I have to do so that you don't murder their great-great-great-great children?"
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Didn't we get confirmation that the seven sent their people as conquerors rather than refugees? I'm pretty sure that was the narrative they pushed to heir people when sending them to Westeros.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
That's Mel's conundrum, by another skin.

We solve it the same way: present her with what are clearly truths, and clearly in conflict with what she seems to believe is also true.

However she reconciles it, and given these are people whose faith is bone-deep it shouldn't break so reconciling it is, it grows to encompass the world at large.

It's not too hard to convince people who believe someone always knows better that their own human perceptions are flawed, we just take their own logic to its end.
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That barely worked on Mel, and we had a better starting position. He will disregard our words and start killing us because he's been explicitly told we're the worst evil on the world.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
I think that the Seven will order him to fuck with us. We could maybe try to turn him against his Gods, but that seems very unlikely : he's faithful and doesn't see the problem in their commandments.
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If Viserys is reading him right, that is entirely possible, actually.

Much more likely, he changes his perception to reconcile his original faith with whatever new truth we present to him.
TalonofAnathrax said:
By definition, if the Seven are fine with our plans to humble them then they haven't really been humbled, have they? There's an element of resentment and anger when you humble someone. You force them to gain in humility.
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Irrelevant, the only measure we care about judging the Faith's humiliation or not is if it satisfies the OG.
 
Not to mention that to the Red Priest Viserys is pretty much the likeliest candidate for Azor Asshai, the fucking messiah

To the Seven, the Targs are pretty much the closest thing to Satan, specially Mr. Sorcerer Supreme
 
065tdsa said:
That barely worked on Mel, and we had a better starting position. He will disregard our words and start killing us because he's been explicitly told we're the worst evil on the world.
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Now that's a disturbing lack of faith :V

There are more than a few measures we can take to at least try and talk to him. For one, we already are talking to him.

Dywen is well placed to bring the issue of "I agree you have good intentions, but this path you thread doesn't lead where you think it does, here's why:.."
 
The crazy demon said:
Not to mention that to the Red Priest Viserys is pretty much the likeliest candidate for Azor Asshai, the fucking messiah

To the Seven, the Targs are pretty much the closest thing to Satan, specially Mr. Sorcerer Supreme
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Clearly, not to all of the Seven, as Danelle's boytoy is a a freaking Other-touched sorcerer.

We absolutely need to stop treating the Faith and the Seven as one, in both the sense that they aren't in lock-step, and that they aren't monolithic in and of themselves.

That, is how we win here.
 
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There's also the fact that we know for a fact what his endgame is because Dany explained it:
DragonParadox said:
"He still seeks a theocracy, though he might know it not," Dany's thoughts are cold and measured now, her own mind racing down the path to understand this man."If the Faith is strong and united, and the lords squabbling fools such as we have seen them, it becomes their 'duty' to take away that power with which the lords use to do harm, inch by inch until the throne is hollow and the crown a glided bauble."
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Maybe unaware, to be sure, but it hardly matters when the Father can keep him on track as required, yes? Another difference between him and Melisandre is that R'hllor is the ultimate pragmatist, an LE god that is willing to support and empower Benerro as his LG High Priest. If the Red Faith can prosper under us, that's not an option R'hllor will cut off completely, or otherwise he'd give a shit about our attempted subversion of Melisandre.

The Seven on the other hand cut off 99% of their clergy as unsuitable and started anew with random faithful. That's the complete opposite attitude vis-a-vis compromise and adaptation.
 
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egoo said:
...rephrase please, I don't get what you are saying at all, apart from vaguely hurting tone :/
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You have literally said that how Lucan is a person and not the villain caricature we all wanted him to be is ruining things for you after you've built him up as automatic enemy in your head.

You want the ending where he's stapled to tree. Anything else is unreasonable because that's the storyline you want. That is narrative-based logic.

TalonofAnathrax said:
Oh, and I've been providing flavorful yet dangerous builds for Lucan's minions to DP. I really do think that they won't be boring pushovers unless we pick some really amazing tactics.
The ones I've been touching are lower leveled than us and underequipped compared to us, but I still think they could be a nuisance or even kill some Companions depending on how we play.
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Oh look. Reasons for a peaceful settlement.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
I think that the OG won't be satisfied by anything that the Seven could accept. They want revenge.
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What's heinous punishment for one culture can be just an every-day thing to another.

And you are assuming the Seven wouldn't be willing to cut the arm to save the body, so to speak.

Considering how we seem to be able to mostly get vengeance on the major Andal houses themselves to sate the OG, I would be more surprised of the OG not accepting a shattering of the Faith's secular power as humiliation.

The truly pious clergy won't care for secular power as long as we give them the means to continue their work, and the politicians can be bought, it seems more than feasible.

It seems like the best solution.
 
065tdsa said:
There's also the fact that we know for a fact what his endgame is because Dany explained it:
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No. It's where the path he's describing ends. That does not for one second mean he believes that a theocracy is the right course. Dany outright says this in the section you're quoting. She isn't sure if he knows, and neither are we.

You're making statements of motivation here when we have no proof that it's actually present.
 
Well we could try and talk with him as Dywen to see how he thinks of everything. His ideas are still dangerous but could solve it peacefully.

Edit: Also talk with Danelle to see her opinion on everything and Lucan.
 
The crazy demon said:
We didn't do anything with Brienne because she is currently a fucking kid, and it would have really harmed the goodwill we got back then with Fenly
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Good points. I would like to follow up on her though.

egoo said:
...I'd really rather just have Lucan captured and sacrificed, than trying to get him on our side, reasanoble he may seem or not.
I despise the idea.
Really, really much. I hope everyone understands that he's very likely just bullshitting everyone here, us included, to be seen in better light?
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Human sacrifice is your solution to everything Egoo :V

065tdsa said:
You sure about that? If say, the Father represents fairness and virtue, doesn't that mean that his decisions are inherently so and anyone who says otherwise is lying?

Besides, while he might be speaking the truth, there's also the fact his argument hangs on virtue and morality, and the high standards of them demanded from mages. When he inevitably starts finding mages and the lords who could be trusted with commanding them fall below such standards, he will naturally turn against them.
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We're not sure, not really. That's why we want to push to know more basically.

One Autumn Leaf said:
Wait we are trying to recruit him now? What the hell happened? I was gone for 20 minutes.
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:V

Duesal said:
That was the sole reason I've been pushing to sacrifice Lucan. If we don't sacrifice him, I'm honestly not sure what we'd do.
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Make the 7 give their reparations in the god realm?

Rather than stabbing each other's servants until someone feels bad enough to cry uncle.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
Clearly, not to all of the Seven, as Danelle's boytoy is a a freaking Other-touched sorcerer.
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And we are talking about Lucan, not Danelle, she is a cool lady, and the Others are not enemies of the seven, they ran away from Andalos due to incestous sorcerer dragons, not ice fey

We know the Father wants us dead, we know he sent a fucking Kingkiller down and pretty much told us to abandon our ways or die.
 
I think a lot of our assumptions about Lucan have been proven false. We might be able to work with him rather than killing him.

Unfortunately, I don't think Lucan is going to go for that. While he might have as poor an understanding of us and we did of him, there is a lot of stuff about us that he likely won't tolerate. We've made common cause with Fiends and our blood sacrifices are enough to bring a tear to an ancient Valyrian's eye.

So while I think we could have worked with him, he probably won't be able to work with us, not without demanding that we change our ways. And that just isn't going to happen.
 
065tdsa said:
There's also the fact that we know for a fact what his endgame is because Dany explained it:
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Read that again.

It seems that he is merely blind to either the way things will go, or to the downsides of it. Because he genuinely believes the Faith is Good.

More and more we find levers that we can pull on him, because we are starting to understand him.
 
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